Greetings! I am the newbie and this is my first post to the forum.

I am looking for a good grand piano for my fiancee who is a professional piano teacher for classical music. I would like to know what's your advice about Kawai RX3 and Brodmann PE 187 as these two are about the same price in my country which is equivalent to 31K US dollar.

Thanks in advance!

I am going to say go with the Kawai, but thats bias on my part. You are going to get a very solid piano with the RX3 and Kawai has a great customer support base. I don't know much about Broadman but I absoloutely loved the RX3 I played on. If you could find one, you might want to consider the RX3 Blak edition, but it will only be sold depending on which continent you live on. I say go for the Kawai, but go for the piano that speaks to you the most and an action you really like to is also important.

Which country are you writing from and where exactly are you located?

These pianos may be comparable in quality but the Brodmann 187 should be much more reasonable than the Kawai RX3.

This is exactly what gives the piano such appeal and edge in the marketplace today.

Please let us know...

Norbert

...and you might want to get her to play the pianos (and others?) to see which one she prefers. Personally, I'd go for the Kawai RX3 if it is priced equivalent to the Brodmann. BUT, I'd also bet you could get both pianos far less than the price you suggested here. And, like Norbert said, the Brodmann shouldn't cost as much as the RX3.

I would suggest picking the piano she likes best, particularly if the price of both instruments is somewhat similar.

If you like both instruments equally, I would probably opt for the Kawai RX, as these pianos have an established reputation for durability (assuming she will be teaching on this piano in addition to personal practicing).

My fiancee has played Brodmann once and she like it. I will take her to play the Kawai RX3 this weekend.

The price I have posted above is including local tax and it is equivalent to 28K before tax. I am writing from New Zealand. In here, only one exclusively dealer are selling Brodmann, same story to Kawai.

I've been told Kawai RX3 is made in Japan and Brodmann PE 187 is assembled in china? Will it be any quality difference? I want the piano to be used for a long time (50 year+) with proper maintenance.

Brodmann is a Chinese piano with European components. "Assembled" in China is somewhat misleading. I would just say it's made in China.
You are looking at 2 very different pianos with opposite company history. Kawai is a very well established piano company with decades of track records. Brodmann is still quite new as a company despite of the company's intentional or unintentional reference to its European heritage. If you do believe in statistic then you would have a higher chance with the RX-3 lasting for a while in comparison to the Brodmann of which the longevity factor is still unknown because the brand has not been around long enough to provide statistical records to judge from.
The Brodmann devotees on PW will argue otherwise pointing out the solid construction and quality of Brodmann pianos but won't be able to assure anything about longevity without a proven product history. The Brodmann skepticals, including myself, on the other hand can not say for sure if Brodmann pianos will not last either. At this point, it's just unknown and only time will tell.

Do your research, understand the risks and potentials. Buy something that you can enjoy many years to come without worry. If budget is a concern, then save up some more then buy later.

Good luck.

jickyhan - I think 50 years+ is a little over-optimistic for a teaching piano even if it is only used as a teaching piano in the first 20 years. Mid range pianos such as Kawai and Brodmann, because of their relatively low 'new cost v. rebuild' ratio, fall into the Asian philosophy of 'don't rebuild, but replace'.
Regarding pricing (and apologies to the dealer who is quoting you the equivalent of US$31,000 for a 187), there is usually a hefty premium paid for a Kawai RX3 to a Brodmann 187.

koiloco - don't get me wrong, I think the RX3 is a great piano. However, using your reasoning that it is a safer bet to go with the company with the 'statistics and track record':

Kawai - 1.Yes decades of excellent manufacturing track record.
2.Their plastic action components do not have decades of excellent track record (as yet).

Brodmann - 1. No decades of excellent manufacturing track record (as yet).
2. Components come from companies that have decades of excellent track record. German Roslau strings, German Strunz soundboards, American pinblocks (Berkel), Langer actions.

Brodmann offer a 10 year guarantee - in my experience, if something goes wrong with a piano, even signs of unreasonable wear and tear, it is obvious within the first 5 years, let alone 10.

If you are looking for this piano to last you 50+ years, let alone doubling as a teaching piano may be living on a prayer-Bon Jovi The piano will need replacing and unless you are willing to fork over that same amount of cash again, maybe you should look at some used Kawais and Yamahas, if even only 2 years old. Atleast with that you won't have that showroom floor price. Pianos aren't so dissimilar to cars in the sense that once you take them off the lot they go down in price, but not near as much a car would. (please allow exceptions like brand types and sales)

Both pianos are great but they are different.

All you need to choose are ears and fingers.

Projections of lifespan are difficult. Both pianos are very well constructed.

Have a technician inspect the Brodmann and you'll find out more. There are some important details in the construction that show these guys are really serious!

Have a tech inspect the Kawai. There are some important details in the construction that show these guys are really really serious!!

i don't think there was any suggestion that kawais aren't well made instruments? just that, as the newcomer brodmann has more to prove in that department, and an inspection by a tech would help provide some of that proof. no?

Well......no.

While both pianos are well made, without a track record, longevity cannot be accurately determined by examining the finished product.

If the 'track record' theory was always applied, nothing new could ever enter the market.

For those that doubt, I say look closer. Soundboard quality and construction, rim, pinblock, action, etc.

One of my favorite quotes from the Fine supplement is "Buy what you can see with your eyes and hear with your ears."

Agreed, but usually the "upstarts" are priced at a substantial enough discount to their perceived competitors to justify taking a little risk (regarding longevity) by the purchaser. It appears this is not the case for the original poster.

In the "battle of the brands" one should not introduce those concerns which are either not founded on evidence [any here tech to prove one piano will outlast the other?] or are just opinions.

In Europe there is a widespread opinion [prejudice?] that oriental pianos, regardless of make, won't last anywhere comparable to their own.

On the other hand, when there I have played some pretty shabby pre & post war pianos which didn't exactly stand the test of time either.

I'm with Larry Fine here: don't buy on fear mongering but what "you can see with your eyes and hear with your ears."

And can afford.....

Good luck and respect to all!

Norbert

I am not a piano tech but I don't think it's as simple as getting good components and assembling them together and voila!!!

And Chris, picking out the "plastic" component in Kawai pianos as your counter example is indeed quite interesting. You must use this often with your customers when they bring up Kawai pianos in your store.

jickyhan,

One thing you probably should also consider is that the Brodmanns need some more pre sales dealer preparation (regulation & voicing) than the Kawais (knowing also the Japanese brands benefit from some).

So you should check what the Brodmann dealer has to offer in this department (pre sales prep). If he isn't good at this you will probably have to rely, post delivery, on an independent tech, which then could cost you some extra money.

schwammerl.

For sure this is true. Brodmann sells its suppliers by name and nationality, but has nothing to say about which factories in China it has entrusted with the manufacture of its pianos. Since Brodmann owns Langer, it might just as well say that it's a Brodmann action. After all, it's as good as Brodmann wants it to be. Even if the action were Renner, what would that really mean? Are all Renner actions designed for specific maker customers and installed by those makers equally pleasing? Of course not.

In any of these X versus Y threads that pit a new contender against an established brand, the new contender has much to gain and little to lose. Just by being in the conversation (e.g. Diapason magazine test), it scores points. Then if it doesn't embarrass itself, it scores some more. If it is truly competitive in the short-term (new sample to new sample), then it is supposed that it is a long-term keeper despite the fact that its manufacturing plant and parts sourcers could be changed at the drop of a hat.

What's in it for the established brand? Hard to think of anything.

Good Point. I would also like to say that your dog is really cute.

Thanks for all the replies and here are some addition info:

We are going to buy/hire another two upright piano placed side by side for practice and teaching. The grand piano will be mainly for performance or small concert.

The two upright piano we are looking at now is Kawai K series and Samick 118.

Thanks again for any suggestion! :-)

Koiloco: Voici! Sorry to hear you're not a piano tech,(I don't blame you, the money's not great and some of the customers can be picky).

Good components assembled by an unskilled workforce and/or antiquated machinery and yes, you'd have a piano right at the bottom of Mr Fine's very very long list. But piano manufacturing has been revolutionised by the creation of the Asian 'piano superfactories'and the use of CNC machinery. With many of the old established manufacturers depending on their skilled craftsmen to compensate for their lack of investment in modern production techniques and machinery, the result was spiralling prices putting a good new piano out of reach for most prospective purchasers. The new manufacturing techniques and computer controlled machinery do mean that with the right designs, production almost robotic in some cases, overseen by a handful of QC staff, good quality components are assembled together - and yes - voila!! You've made a great piano!

BTW, thanks for the sales tip re the plastic parts - I'll try out your suggestion with my next customer.

William:

The modernisation and globalisation of piano production means that for many successful new brands, and some not so new, factory-naming now takes a back seat. Design and components are what matter, as long as you have the right machinery and QC. (Brodmann's team of ex Bosendorfer management and technicians is formidable.) Steinway don't boast that their Essex range is made by Pearl River and/or Young Chang, (they seem to have no problem changing production at the drop of a hat),nor that Boston is made by Kawai (imagine Boston completely removing the 'Designed by Steinway' tag and replacing it with 'Built by Kawai'), or Schimmell/Vogel/May Berlin, etc etc. (I'm stopping before I get to Venables).

Regarding buying the Langer name, sure, as Brodmann bought Langer, they could rename it Brodmann, but I expect other piano makes (can't really call them 'makers' any more) using their actions may object to having Brodmann displayed on their action rails. Likewise in the 60/70s Steinway didn't rename themselves CBS Pianos, nor in the 80s and 90s Birmingham Brothers, nor in the 2000s Selmer & Co.

Going back to the question of design, take a close look at the Brodmann 187 - especially if it's next to an S & S model A..

Okie, Voila it is. I'll take your words for it.

Hi Chris,

Thanks for your input - I found your explanations to be helpful and informative.

It sounds like you are noticing many of the special details in the construction of the Brodmann pianos as I have, and are enjoying them along with customers who appreciate such a fine piano at an attainable price.

Indeed!

I suppose that Chris has noticed many of those special details since he now has top billing on the Brodmann webpage as exclusive distributor for Brodmann in England and Wales.



Chris,

I suppose that you are right , but what's on the back seat for the manufacturer may be on the front seat for the customer. Continuous production over a length of time in the same owned factory is still worth something, and sizzle components like Ciresa, Renner, and Bolduc on Korean brands have never brought Yamaha to its knees. There's something reassuring to the buyer about a company that judges its own components of sufficient merit to not require upgrading.

I have absolutely nothing against the Prodmann Professional Line pianos as they sound and play, but I don't think you can take down Yamaha and Kawai with a bunch of mix and match components built into an OEM contract with this or that factory. Got to admit though that a group of ex-Bosie folks replicating Steinway scale designs is a nice touch.

You gotta be kidding, right? Guess, where most of the CNC machinery has been developed and built before it's been shipped to China?

On my visit to Grotrian Steinweg this past summer, I was literally ASTONISHED at the amount of state-of-the-art high-tech that these guys use. The painting/lacquering chamber alone sports a hypermodern recycling system that collects excess paint in a basin in the floor while capturing harmful fumes in an equally modern filter system, thus protecting the environment and the workers. They had bought it just a little bit ago and pointed out that it cost them in the six figures to have it installed. This is just the beginning of a factory tour that sported impressive machinery that help the "oldfashioned" piano builders increase precision in pursuing what they are after - a top-notch piano. Companies like Grotrian have it all, traditional craftsmen and state-of-the-art technology. In my view, the best of the two worlds.

By juxtaposing the "oldfashioned" makers who "lack" modern equipment against the "revolutionized" factories in Asia, you create a myth that is absolutely not true.

Seilerfan,

Not trying to be a Pollyanna, but isn't it possible that both you and Chris are correct?

If you were to compare Bose Eric's photos of the Sauter plant in Spaichingen on the Sauter thread with his photos of the Förster and Feurich plants on the Förster, Steingraeber, Feurich thread, you would find evidence of Chris's contention (Förster and Feurich) and evidence of your contention (Sauter).

It's really a matter of degree with Schimmel probably be the most heavily invested in automation and makers such as Feurich and Förster the least.

One question that needs to be asked is the level of experience operating the machinery. Putting aside the question of where the equipment may have been manufactured, who has the most experience in applying it to piano manufacture? From all evidence that would appear to be the Asian makers. As one example, think of the introduction of CNC into Bechstein production. It came by way of an arrangement with Samick, a Korean maker who was already experienced in utilizing it.

SeilerFan -


High tech piano manufacturing machinery? Would it be Toyo Japan?

I'm as disappointed as you that so many of the great old names are going or gone and I'm not out to create any myth. I'm happy to go on record that in addition to the 'superfactories' there are some not so super-factories in the east which I would not want to endorse. Grotrian may have invested in new plant, but some of the others sadly didn't or left it too late.

And isn't this really the crux of this whole thread. The Brodmann is the same price as the Kawai. An RX3 for $28K US is only a little more than one would expect to pay in the US. I don't believe you would find a Brodmann for that high a price in the US.

Regarding the argument that Kawai's ABS Styran/carbon compsite parts have not stood the test of time, Kawai has used ABS Styran (without the infused carbon) for decades. I believe it's safe to say that ABS Styran has stood the test of time. The carbon infusion only makes the material stronger, but since that poster doesn't sell Kawai their only choice is to be creative with FUD (fear uncertainty and doubt).

It seems to me the OP is in a position to negotiate. Let the two dealers know that it's a competitive situation and relative pricing. If the Brodmann dealer comes down then the situation might become more of a toss-up. As it stands my choice would be the Kawai. However, it's really a matter of what your ears and fingers tell you.

We carried Brodmann for a short time. This is accurate information.
This particular piano was offered to us for half the cost of a RX3; I assumed these should affect the final price to the consumer. In fact this price comparison was used as a selling point by the Brodmann’s sales representative at the time (2007).

Besides the price inequity the difference in performance is to be considered.
A noticeable tonal characteristic I disliked about the Broadmann 187; is the lack of ability to make gradual changes in tonal quality. The changes in tone across the dynamic range were not consistent.

Also the bass registers had power but not clarity and the disproportion between low registers, mid and upper range was obvious. The amount of overtones was excessive at the bass registers and not enough harmonic content at the mid and upper registers; in my opinion the piano needed more attack and had very narrow voice at the mid and upper sections.

As usual (The Tylenol) of the piano industry was recommended; (VOICING). Off course!

What happened now is that by voicing the piano the tonal-dislocation was even more obvious. IMO the reason behind the tonal limitation of these pianos is not in how the piano has been voiced; but it has to do with the type of hammers, (soundboard and treble’s bridge) and overall scale design.
Soundboard and bridge is something I want to emphasize; IF indeed the soundboards were built in Germany and shipped to China (which I think is true) the bridges are made and attached in China, I want to say that the quality, designed and craftsmanship of these bridges miffed the tone of Brodmann’s (FACT).
That’s why voicing does not change the fundamental characteristics of the tone.

Comparing actions…well simply is unnecessary. Starting with something as simple as the fact that I removed the fallboard on the Broadmann and took a glance at the let-off buttons and they were all slightly crooked. I’ve never seen a new RX3 were the left-off buttons didn’t have perfect separation to each other or the buttons weren’t attached perfectly straight on the screw.

In reality Broadmann’s are average entry-level to mid range pianos. I think the marketing it is the best part of it. What I always found contradictory is the amount of prepping requested by the manufacturer in relation with the “very much inherited European craftsmanship of Brodmann). They gave us a list of I don’t know how many points to be check (long). Not a single brand we carry had requested this amount of prepping.

I personally consider unfair and wrong by some experienced professionals in this forum to compare a Broadmann to a solid mid-range piano such as Yamaha C series, Boston or Kawai RX.

Kurtmen,

You are entitled to your opinion, but our experience is quite different. It is different to the point that your post, along with some of your other posts, has me convinced that your understanding of voicing, design, and prep are very different than mine.

I would suggest that you stick to offering your opinions about the products you sell, rather than trying to put down your competitors.

Also, Brodmann's suggested prep list is a sign that they are serious and professional and want their pianos represented well. It is the height of spin to say that a manufacturer who asks their dealers to prepare their products to a high standard is doing something wrong. I would say that the manufacturers who have short prep lists for their dealers are the ones cheating both the dealer and the purchaser. There is nothing that is not normal and basic in Brodmann's suggested prep list. Most dealers would be wise to apply it to their non Brodmann pianos that neglected to make the effort to supply minimum standards for how those pianos should be prepared.

I think this is where the difference is: You are thinking in terms of competition. I don't.

I don't consider that Broadmann is a significant competitor in any large market or a brand in demand by the general public.
My intention is simply to provide information to the original poster of this topic, based on my own experience with Broadmann and Kawai in terms of *Pricing* and *Performance*.
In fact I think the individual who started the post is not even in North America.

I’m sorry for what I have to tell you but people like you disappointed me the most. A knowledgeable rebuilder has to fogged his understanding about pianos because his tied-up to a particular brand.

By the way since your experience with the brand has been different. It was the performance of the piano the only difference, or did you also have to pay double the price we were offered?

Carnes Piano Company San Jose
Purveyors of:
Kawai, Seiler, Blüthner, Wilh. Steinberg, Charles Walter, Shigeru Kawai.

Kurtman:

With your line up of pianos I wouldn't carry makes like Brodmann either and get rid of it.

Who wants to loose constantly deals to their [more expensive] main lines?

Just imagine the embarrassement someone perhaps preferring a Brodmann over Shigeru?

Of course you'd say "can't happen" - we both know better...

No offense - this is obviously how business works in America....

Norbert

Norbert my friend,

I think you have just set yourself up as the hoist of your own petard.

fingers

Yes. This new strategy of suggesting that a relatively low-priced brand is too scary good for positioning within a competitor's other lines (Hailun/BPrentice; Brodmann/Kurtmen) does seem a bit perilous. I suppose most retailers who stock Brodmann have more expensive lines to sell as well. What to do? What to do?

BTW Fingers,

You certainly do have S T Y L E. If you ever market a line of Fingers collectibles, let me know.

Uh, thanks Turandot. Any credit ought to go to Larry David.

Hmmmm...Fingers Collectibles. Now there's an idea!
Business is a little slow these days.

fingers

Dear Turondot:

It seems that whatever anybody is saying on this site will be forever contradicted and portrayed as evil by someone else.

The buttom line is that for most dealers it is all about making money - and nothing else.

The other "buttom line" is that for pianos to cost more in today's economy - they have to offer more - MUCH more!

Clearly and noticeable in each and every detail.

Now ask yourself: is this really possible comparing the 'mid-range-to-good' type pianos offered by most manufacturers today?

Then, why are these type discussions going on here at all?

I can understand spending more money on a Bentley than a Kia but how do you justify a much higher or double the price for a watch that doesn't seem have a much different built quality, function or run differently from one half its price?

These are the questions modern consumers are increasingly asking and we dealers better select our piano lines accordingly.

Modern consumers have questions and will increasingly continue to have them: we dealers will need answers - *credible* answers especially....

Answers that can be either objectively determined by musicians themselves or at least 'identified' in some other way.

Yet, doing this is exactly what has become the troubling part.

Having entered the business only some 23 years ago, I never had the pleasure simply sitting at the cashier shouting "next one please"....

The best known brands had long been given out,tied up in the hands of those who could promise their suppliers selling the most - did anything else ever matter?

Once the money trough was running, little if any attention was paid to those who would quietly emerge offering not only good value but "that something extra" increasingly gaining the attention of serious musicians.

What had increasingly become a "natural selection of excellence" for some, had at same time become a [understandable...] threat to others.

All of this of course is not my own doing but something that is going on in the whole world today affecting each country, each company and each individual.

Oh, before I forget... "individual"

What you or anybody else here, buy an electric car made in India for $ 5000 running 300 miles on one single charge of electrical power?

Waiting for your answer, by the way - it's what's coming next....

Norbert

If somebody likes Michael Jackson over Mozart, I don’t see why not somebody will purchase a Brodmann over a Shigeru or a Bluthner.
There is a person for every piano and money to be made in all sectors of the market.
Are you kidding me?



Of course it could happen! I have seen worse than just a Broadmann over a Shigeru.
I'm sure somebody as talented as you can sell anything over anything.



What is this?
We went from talking about tone, touch, pricing, and from sharing our experiences and opinions with the original poster to the Brodmann's dealers defense front.

I gave a point of view to the poster and perhaps not what Brodmann dealers want to hear FINE! Just reply with your own opinion about components, touch, tone etc.

But what is all this emotional nonsense above?

Oh...I think this is the thread that Rod was referring to in his Tar and Feather thread.

I'll have to put in my 2 cents worth: I don't see anything particularly wrong with a dealer giving his/her opinion of why they decided not to carry a brand anymore, and why they feel a comparison between two different pianos may not be a fair comparison.

A question to all: Where, in your opinions do the rest of the Kawais (GM/GE series) compare to the Brodmanns? From what I can tell from a musicians standpoint, the RX series are better than the GM, and the Brodmanns should be compared more fairly to the lower line of Kawais.

I think that sometimes dealers may want to create some confusion by suggesting that a brand, in this case Kawai, doesn't have any range of quality of instruments, when in fact it does. Brodmann from what I remember also has two quality levels as well. Perhaps the ones assembled in Vienna are more of a direct competitor to the RX?

Dear Friend Norbert,

I really don't know what to say to all of this. Obviously, Kawai and Yamaha can get customers to pay a premium for their generations of success and their reputation for quality of product and service. I suppose that means better margins for them and their retailers, and an easier sell for a sales pro who represents them (if anything about piano sales today can be said to be easy). I suppose that if and when Brodmann achieves a higher visibility and the beginnings of a good reputation of its own, Brodmann will charge accordingly. The company and its dealers will reap a bigger and better harvest and hopefully re-invest some of that in building even better pianos.

Of course you and Keith are free to go off on Kurtmen just as he is free to speak his mind. I'm not sure it serves anyone's purposes though.

It was Fingers' observation that when you bring up the possibility of your Brodmann threatening the selling prices of higher-priced brands of other dealers, that you as a seller of Estonia and Sauter have to deal with the same question. I see Fingers' point and agree with him. Fingers addressed you as a friend and I have done the same. But I have to be honest. If all the retailers here begin poking at other dealers' inventory saying such things as "I can understand why you don't want to stock Hailun because it will show up your Japanese brands", or "I can understand why you don't take on Brodmann because it will kill your Kawai sales", or "I can understand your reluctance to carry X because it will outshine your higher-priced Y", the traveling sales carnival that occurs here daily will be that much sillier and the infighting will benefit no one.

Now, to answer your personal question to me, I'm aware that price and quality do not proceed lockstep in straight parallel lines and that some pianos that are priced lower are in fact better instruments than some that are priced higher. In my personal circumstances I will always be looking for value, paying less attention to track record, and paying no attention to brand prestige. That's because I don't have a lot of money to throw around generally, and if I do I do, I don't spend it on musical instruments.

I know these are bleak times for piano retail and I know the pride that you, Keith, Kurtmen and many others here take in your business. I sincerely hope that demand picks up to a level that will reward your financial risk, hard work, and ability to select products that customers find attractive.

Are you a math wiz Turnadot because I love how you always use X and Y variables. Maybe on day you should change it up, maybe one day A and B can be used, push the envelope.

It's good to read the lighter side of Louis.

No, I'm no math wiz, far from it. If I wanted to push the envelope, I guess I'd use names instead of X and Y, no?

Now I have a suggestion for you as well. Since you're fascinated with pianos, try to get yourself a part-time gig at a piano shop. If you're too young to be officially on the payroll, maybe you could do a volunteer / apprentice kind of thing and fill in some of your blanks about what makes A different from B.

Norbert,
You raise an interesting question that begs another question: Why does any particular purchase need to be justified? And to who? Oneself? The salesperson?

Are you also suggesting from your previous post that dealers such as Ori and Keith , who represent Brodmann as well as a variety of top shelf piano manufacturers, fear embarrassment and shame in that the quality of their more expensive lines actually fail to exceed, (at least by any significant margin) that of Brodmann? Do they too, like Kurtmen fear constantly losing deals to their more expensive lines?

Do you Norbert, fear losing a more expensive sale of an Estonia or Sauter to a Brodmann? Something tells me the answer is no.

I can't speak for Ori, Keith nor Kurtmen, but I'm willing to bet that they do not fear losing a more expensive sale to one of their less expensive brands and they clearly recognize the function, benefit and compromise of each piano they carry and how each piano can serve, in their own way, a wide range of customer's needs/desires.

BTW, I own mechanical watches and simply enjoy their complications. The Grandfather clock and the acoustic piano are the only other devices that work when the power inevitably goes out at the house.

fingers

Power going out - reminds me of my days growing up in am Asian country where from occasionally there would be power outages.

No TV, too dark at night to read - so the only thing was to play the piano and sing!

Theoretically nobody has to justify any purchase to anyone and is free to make choice on a purely emotional basis if she/he wants to do so.

Often however there is a rational phase in a buying process that preceeds the final 'pull the trigger' moment which again by itself is purely emotional.
If one needs to justify anything it should be to oneself.

But as we regularly see on this forum many people apparently have a need of others confirming their choice when announcing the purchase of a piano.
Sometimes then whether the process contained a rational phase or not, their might follow buyer's remorse which again is emotional, unfortunately.

Now about how I understood Norbert's statement. I think he simply wanted to say that in former days a customer who was in for a mid-price piano of good quality did not have to think a lot: it was either Yamaha or Kawai, or sometimes Petrof in the good old days they were still moderately priced.

Today it has become quite crowdy in this segment and potential customers are offered many alternatives of instruments with a price tag lower than the established brands an for some people at a quality level that at least equals that of the established ones.

And yes once in a while there will be people chosing one of those - mainly Chinese - quality brands over the much more expensive high end brands; there are always exceptional people around who make exceptional choices. And also once in a while there will be prospects entering a showroom pretending they are interested in a high end brand an finally get home with an affordable piano, simply because initially they did not want to admit there budget was limitted.

schwammerl.

Interesting post, Luc. I would add to your profile of shoppers.....

"entering a showroom pretending they are interested in a high end brand an finally get home with an affordable piano, simply because initially they did not want to admit there budget was limited"

....the opposite situation of the shopper who enters the showroom letting on that he has next to nothing in the way of funds and then looking things over from the bottom up. I think this is the ultimate technique for a variety of reasons which I won't go into here.

Another aspect of this is that the range in prices continues to expand while the range in quality levels is becoming compressed. While the mid-level Yamahas and Kawais might seem to be approaching the price of 'better' pianos, in actuality those 'better' pianos are rising in price as much if not more. Down at the bottom of Fine's barrel , the Chinese and Indonesian brands are still hammering the market with low selling prices while at the same time improving quality. Of course labor costs and currency exchange rates play a big role in this, but the net result is a compression in quality range with an expansion in price range.

Retailers had better be ready to provide justification for their high-priced stuff even if, as Fingers said, the buyer may need no justification other than his freedom of choice to spend as he likes.

People here always assume that when a person picks a Brodmann over a Steinway (or whatever), that this must be an embarrassment for the higher-rated brand. Maybe it just means that the person couldn't afford the Steinway. Or, perhaps, it might mean that the person is a musical embarrassment him/herself. Who knows..... All things are possible... People here often draw wrong conclusions when brand X is picked over brand Y. Lovers of brand X feel reassured that their piano is the better choice. Lovers of Y feel piqued and try to find counter arguments. One usually tries to harmonize and justify one's purchase before others.

Funny! I agree. I think a piano should leave the factory in as good a tonal condition as possible. A well-prepped piano straight from the factory shows that the makers who adhere to careful voicing, take their job very seriously. Dealer preparation and voicing can do some fine-tweaking but it cannot completely transform/change an instrument.

What I find most interesting is that some (many?) dealers will be the first to encourage customers in the direction they see fit and that consumers will feel reassured with this dealer encouragement. What becomes more interesting still is when the consumer realizes that the dealers, for the most part, are simply trying to sell their wares and will say anything (some to the extent of FUD of competitors products, or worse) to encourage the sale. But, as suggested by Turandot's post about a savvy consumer not indicating how much they can or will spend on an instrument may be given contradictory sales spin when the dealer realizes, perhaps too late, that someone looking at entry level pianos and being told that these are just as good if not better than higher priced pianos, then begins to show interest in the higher priced ones only to be told that, well yes, of course the higher priced pianos really are of better quality.

To the glitterati, how much one can afford and how much one is willing to spend are pretty much the same thing.

To the literati, how much one can afford how much one is willing to spend are entirely different.

Very good point. I'd like to add that people also like to point out that "I pay much less for mine and mine is just as good or even better than yours". This is where problems often start.

and I am going to get my cheapo Kawai voiced to sound like a Bosie by my super technician.

Yes, I agree. I don't want to sound condescending but if someone who is looking for a "small affordable" grand here posts that they like a brand better than the other, that to me doesn't mean much. If an experienced pianist with a trained ear and great musicality renders such a statement, that carries more weight and meaning to me. Oftentimes, beginners don't have the ear to really discern the differences between pianos and will just conclude their search by saying: "Why would I spend so much on expensive brand X when I can have brand Y for much less, and it sounds at least as good."

More expensive pianos are oftentimes picked by people who love their (the pianos', that is) musical abilities. Both, a Brodmann and a Boesendorfer will make fine shiny black furniture. In fact, for paying the premium for a Boesendorfer, one doesn't get more glitter or more furniture. To the laymen, different grands probably look pretty similar anyway on the outside.
If I think back, the grands that my teachers had were not meant to display wealth or a snobby attitude, they were just excellent tools that aided their owners in making music. Not everyone who buys an expensive piano is rich or seeks to display their status. Sometimes it happens that these instruments just serve as tools.
That's how I think about my own piano. The casing/body is looks actually pretty simple: no spade legs, a boring standard high-gloss polyester finish, one-piece fallboard, simple lyre without any frills, no special wood veneer... but the music that comes out of that box, thrills me day after day...

Perhaps they heard that from the dealer.

While the above can be true in some cases - who wouldn't expect a Boesendorfer at five times the price to be somewhat better than a Brodmann - it is equally true that pianos not costing a king's ransom can and often perform to the full satisfaction of individual pianists.

We have had many such cases, including 12 performing churches in our area and a host of well established local teachers and pianists

Just shop at any German maker offering cheaper lines today or Steinway for that matter - once it's established customer won't have dollars to pay for the flagship line - the lower line is suddenly described as "just as good" or "designed by" "centuries of experience" or "built by exact same standards" or what have you.

Curiously, it's never mentioned that in such case one would buy a far inferior let alone crappy piano.

Fact of the matter is that those who are trying to take on the best of the Chinese pianos on their own terms today, are entering dangerous territory.

It seems the interpretation of things seems to depend strictly from which end the pendulum starts swinging...

For the crowd not able or willing to pay four,five times the price, you have nothing to be ashamed of and I would certainly encourage you to keep looking out there.

When some "can't find satisfaction" in even higest places, others can it in areas and spots least expected.

Such are our present times - and increasingly becoming so.

Norbert

Seilerfan,

I understand your appreciation of your Seiler piano and your explanation of what it does for you, but I think you're skating pretty close to thin ice in this statement. A Brodmann may not be on a par with a Bosendorfer, but it has strong musical capabilities of its own and is also much more than shiny black furniture. Less expensive pianos are also "often chosen by people who love their (the piano's that is) piano's musical abilities".



As you say, all things are possible. But the liklihood that a person choosing a Brodmann is a musical embarrassment is very small. Again, I don't know what you're hinting at exactly, but I do sense a bit of condescension despite your saying that there is none.

I know many players with pianos that might seem like a musical embarrassment to some folks until their owners sit and play them. These owners would include many professional musicians who are hardly laymen and obviously play very well.



Rod,

As is often the case, you appear to have something on your mind other than the thread topic.

There is no question that some of the emerging quality makes from China pose a serious threat to certain others today.

A good product mix with some higher rated makes by same dealer allows customers to make choices of their own.

If this means loosing a deal to a more expensive piano in same showroom, so be it.

Others refuse to take these type "losses" a they go against the grain of their established business.

This is the very basis of much being said here.

Meantime the world is moving on - with and without our stated opinions and individual take on things.

2010 wil be one interesting year to watch...

Norbert

Heck with 2010.

I'll wait till 2020 and visit this thread again and see who and what piano will be around still.

Will you be around Norbert ? cuz I might not make it to see you say "I told you so!" by then

Just to demonstrate how complicated a piano sales can be and that it is not always black or white, let me tell you a story, a story indeed but a true once however.

A couple of years back when Brodmann entered the Belgian market I wanted to know more about the brand than what the dealer had told me or what I could read on the website; so I started Googling and stumbled upon someone in the U.S. selling his Brodmann 187 of less than half a year old.

The seller described the piano as follows [quote from the offer I kept a hardcopy from]:
" Amazing beautiful sounding handcrafted grand piano. We went to Vienna with my wife to purchase a Boesendorfer grand piano, there we visited the Joseph Brodmann Piano showroom and decided for the Brodmann grand, we just got it months ago, it took us 4 months of anxious waiting to get it, we played it only a few times, now we have to move to an apartment and this beauty does not fit, we just ordered a Brodmann 132 upright studio piano."

Curious as I am I wanted to know why in the first place he chose the Brodmann and sent him an e-mail, of course clearly stating I was not a potential buyer as I lived in Belgium and was not going to by a used piano in the U.S..
The person did take the time to answer my question though and said following [quoted from his e-mail I ket a hard copy of]:
" I am very busy at the time and the piano is already sold, but I will just comment that my choice was made based on two reasons. Brodmann pianos although assembled in China, are an exceptional value plus the Brodmann I particularly bought was amazingly well voiced and regulated. Bösendorfer is a great piano, but for 25% of the cost of a Bösendorfer I got a great piano. I am already enjoying a 125 Brodmann upright and it sounds wonderful also, a little brighter than the 187, but still a great piano, way better than Yamaha or Kawai upright. I would compare the 125 to the sound of Schimmel uprights.

The other reason why I chose the Brodmann is the sound is clear like bells and very well balanced, the bass is amazing for the size and well I cannot say enough about Brodmann pianos, they are the best bang for the buck piano ever. I believe that unless you have money left over to spend an a 50,000 Euro piano, and want a brand name, you are better off buying a Brodmann and spending the rest of the money on a Mercedez Benz Kompressor 220.

Best wishes,

XXX"

schwammerl.

In addition to my earlier reply:

World no.1 piano company Steinway have just purchased a quantity of machinery from the defunct Yamaha-Kemble factory in England.

That I wouldn't doubt, Norbert. It's not all about the price and definitely, surprises can be found in areas where one doesn't expect them. That reminded me of a little comparison that I could make between a Baldwin SD-10 and a Steinway D, both approx. 10 years of age. The Baldwin appealed much more to me and was only a fourth of the Steinway's asking price. That was a wonderful surprise! That rule thus not only applies to pianos but to life in general. Anyway, from my own personal experience playing instruments, in concerts, in showrooms, at friends' or wherever, I mostly tended to like the pianos best that were the more expensive brands, and that was really not based on the price or the name, but just on the sound and touch that appealed to me much more. When it comes down to having no piano at all or having a decent Chinese grand, there is no question what will be conducive to furthering one's talents better. I wouldn't doubt that. I also wouldn't doubt the tremendous and tremendously rapid improvements that the Chinese piano industry has undergone.

I have had a Brodmann 187 for 3 years now, and its proving to be a great piano.

The dealer I bought it from offered post sale prep, so a tech came up and spent a day regulating it etc, and it was tuned twice inclusive.

The piano is still running well and gets a heavy pounding. I have it serviced about once a year and tuned about 3 times a year.

The piano cost me £7500 (UK pounds) which was with a discount, so I went for it. With a 10 year guarantee and a well-established dealer to back it up I couldn't go wrong.

A Kawai RX-3 is more than double that price here. There is no doubt that the Kawai is beautiful and is exceptionally well made. They have ultra responsive actions which stand the test of time. I would like a Kawai but I can't afford one at the moment.

If both pianos are the same price, go for the Kawai. Really. However, if the price difference was the same there as it is here, I'd sleep on it.

So true.

If the "inferior" instrument is truly wonderful and in every way satisfactory or more, if it is either equal to or even marginally "worse" than the "better" one, at half the price, then it's hard to justify the extra money.

Truly the Kawaii is a fine instrument. But it is not in every way better than an equivalent Brodmann or Hailun. The differences in tone and touch are noticeable but not necessarily more desirable on any of these particular brands.

But if to you the "inferior" instrument is not truly wonderful or not in every way satisfactory, then it's not a good choice for you.

Hop

Tonally, the Brodmann may even be superior. For all its funny clicks and squeaks, it has the most beautiful tone I've heard amongst many pianos. The sound is not unlike S and S actually, although I appreciate it's all subjective.

Lots of opinions here. Everyone has them. But they're not all equal. Sorry they're just not.

Chances are 9 out of ten 8 year old children would choose a McDonalds cheeseburger over fois gras prepared by a master chef at a 4 star restaurant. Who cares? I don't. But if I'm asking for *advice* regarding things of the culinary persuasion I'm not going to ask an 8 year old.
A lot of people post their opinions on this forum but very few qualify them with evidence of background experience. And those who *do* quite often get accused of being condescending and pompous. If Joe Blow from Wisconsin bought a Brodmann because he thinks it's better than a Bosendorfer or Kawaii well.... Great. He saved himself a tonne of money and he's happy. But if Joe Blow comes on this site and expects to argue his case on an even playing field then "show me the money!". If Joe blow is an accomplished pianist then he has my ear. If Joe Blow is a hobbyist, or amateur then yes, he has a right to his opinion but I'm going to take it with a grain of salt because his opinion is about as useful as that of an 8 year old's on the topic of gourmet cuisine (compared to that of a professional pianist who has probably spent thousands of more hours exploring the instrument and what it's capable of)

All I'm really trying to say is that if someone came on this forum looking for advice and had this myriad of opposing opinions to sort through, it might make it a little difficult to choose a direction to go in. Where as if posters were willing to give a little more disclosure as to where the opinion is coming from it might help "input seekers" choose whose advice they want to follow.

I have always believed that these type questions are best answered by a shopper him/herslef - provided he/she can play and discern the tonalities or "quality" of the different pianos on the market.

While this is not always as difficult as is assumed, confusions on the market increasingly comes from the difficulty to explain still major price differences between otherwise very "comparable" pianos.

That lesser priced pianos can and sometimes *do* offer as much or even "more" than their higher priced counterparts, is a sign of the times.

It's for shoppers to sort things out - may we wish them well!

Norbert

An X versus Y thread is an invitation to one and all to give their take on two pianos. It is not a closed-door meeting of a piano review board. As such, the X versus Y thread may not seem all that useful, but to industry people who listen in here without saying much, it's an opportunity to sample public opinion of their wares.

Non-industry readers will undoubtedly value some opinions more than others either for the content itself or because of a kinship they feel with certain other members. Each person will draw his own conclusion, or even smarter, draw none.

Trotting out the old credentials argument (I have 'em, you don't) is silly, especially while expressing no opinion whatsoever of the topic.

BTW, no Joe Blow is registered here, although a JoBro did blow through here one day.

I like your point about industry people. I hadn't considered that. Thanks.
I wouldn't feel right to comment on comparison between those two pianos as I've only had a little experience with them. "Trotting out the old credentials argument" to me isn't silly. It's silly when its more *about* the credentials than the opinion. But credentials are what give an opinion weight. Sometimes the best credentials *are* "beginner hobbyist" as this may be the perspective someone needs for their own particular situation. But no credentials can leave an OP in the dark. I'm just saying that an opinion with context is more useful than one without. (eg. "I bought this piano because I wanted something affordable that I could enjoy playing as an amateur" or "I bought this piano because I wanted the best piano money can buy" or "I bought this piano because I wanted something that has what I perceive to be a limitless pallette for musical expression" etc. ) To me that's a lot more useful than "I bought x because it's better than y"

We like all dealers, have pianos at different price points.

From our perspective, it is not incumbant upon the lesser expensive piano to *prove* its lower price, but for the more expensive one to justify its higher one.

Questions like: " why should I pay x number of dollars more for this brand than for that one " are as real for us as for others.

In reverse one might ask " what am I *not* getting when only paying this?" have become regular part for most shoppers today.

When at a loss - and we sometimes are also - it's up to shoppers to make the final choice.

Interestingly enough one often notices a certain divisional line, but here I better stop.....

Norbert

I completely agree with this. I don't think it's pompous to say that one has an informed opinion based on a myriad hours spent at the piano as a musician. It's rather pompous to disregard such advise.

Chris: I would be interested in a link to this story if there is one. Do you know if Steinway will be using this equipment in their Hamburg factory or just NY?


Lately it seems Steinway has been making a few interesting deals: Forbes Selling stock to Samick to pay off debt and provide general operating expenses.
Also, PW thread closing their restoration center.
And reportedly furloughing their factory workers with scheduled factory closure days.

I expect Steinway will gear up again once the economy begins to pick up, and they will continue to make a fine piano. That said, I am not convinced that the purchase pianomaking equipment from the defunct Kemble during this time is motivated by the pursuit of quality. they didn't make these moves before the Global Financial Crisis.

Their new movie, Note By Note..., certainly espouses a very different philosophy regarding craftsmanship.

For sure context is helpful, but different people will still weight its value differently. Some people kiss the feet of certain retailers here. Others regard them as nothing more than salesmen. Either way or anything between, there's no doubt they have credentials.

Adrean,

You could have made you point without the analogy to cheeseburgers and 8 year old children. Maybe it's coincidence, but your dismissive Joe Blow post came immediately after an infrequent poster named Joe80 left a bouquet to Brodmann. In a post shortly before, he had mentioned he had owned a Brodmann 187 for three years. I think ownership is worth something, so I hope it was coincidence.

It was a coincidence. I could have said Jane Doe or Paris Hilton:)

AJF and turandot (in that order :))

It wouldn't be right to blow Joe80's cover on the forum without his OK, but if he is who I think he is, I saw him recently on tv giving a very accomplished rendition of Grieg's Holberg Suite. Bearing in mind the piano must have been early 1900's, he made it sing. If he wants to, he can give us the link so we can all appreciate his talent.

Katrina:

re your request for a link, sorry there's no link - the info came to light during a phone call with Yamaha UK. I'll see what further details I can find, although polyestering machinery was one item.

Yes Chris that was me. The piano I played was a 1910 Bluthner, very nice instrument although the action is pretty worn out and it really doesn't compare to any new Yamaha, Kawai or Brodmann for that matter.

I don't claim to know everything about pianos but I feel I gave a balanced view. Kawai seems to be better built, virtually bomb proof infact.

Brodmann pianos have a beautiful tone. Perhaps not as well built but equal in sound.

I have an excellent tech who is a piano snob (if it's not Hamburg Steinway or Yamaha C or S series, it's not worth it) and he said that actually the Brodmann is a decent piano, great value for money and has an impressive tone.

He said the Kawai RX is an impressive instrument built to an exceptionally high standard, yet doesn't necessarily sound better and is a little on the pricey side.

If the two pianos being compared were being sold for the same price, and that is what the original poster had said, then I would buy the Kawai, if these were the only two options available.

Wow, it just seems natural that we take a post and always stray away from the original question. I'm just sayin.

Agree completely and think this is not often mentioned enough at PW. If a relative beginner pianist can afford a 50K+ piano I have nothing at all against them purchasing it and it will probably give them greater pleasure than a less expensive piano. I am happy for them. But I also think that part of that piano's capabilities are wasted on a less than advanced pianist.

Although there is much debate about a pianist's ability to change the tone quality on a single note played at a specific volume, I don't think there is much debate about a pianist's ability, depending on their skill, to change the tonal quality when a succession of notes, i.e. music, are played.

Even when playing a simple piece, the tonal quality produced by an advanced pianist will usually be more far more beautiful than the tonal quality produced by a less advanced pianist when playing the same piano.

I think a pianist's correctness of judgement about a piano's tone is usually proportional to their ability to produce a beautiful tone when playing.

Interesting convergence of opinion on the meaning of 'pompous"

The questions that need to be asked are.........

1. Is it pompous to express an opinion of two pianos on a thread that solicits opinions even if a member is a less advanced player

or

Is it pompous to compare opinions of those presumed to be less advanced to the opinions of 8-yr-olds regarding cheeseburgers?

2. Is it pompous to trust one's own opinion over the opinions of those who claim thousands of hours or piano practice?

or

Is it pompous to say that members who in fact do that are pompous?

3. Is it pompous to buy for oneself a piano well beyond one's current ability with lots of headroom to grow in the area of tonal manipulation?

or

Is it pompous to say that such a piano in the hands of such a user is wasted?

I know where my votes would go, but in the spirit of "Let's All Be Friends". I will abstain from mentioning them.

It is interesting that these [lower priced X] versus [higher-priced Y] threads that challenge the Get-What-You-Pay-For premise are popping up with increasing frequency usually causing some pots to boil over.





Agreed, but what's the point? You ordinarily don't choose a piano for others more gifted than yourself to entertain you. You choose it for yourself and pay for it yourself. It's your money, your free choice, and your world. You may never drive it to its full potential, but it will enourage you toward that end.

There are varying types of experience.

If one plays thousands of hours on the same piano, regardless of its quality, their jusdgement is less valuable than one who plays the same number of hours on a variety of instruments.

Also, one who has played many pianos of the same brand, is in a better position to evaluate specific pianos of that brand. For example, I have heard hundreds of U1s/U3s/C3s and now can tell when an exceptional one come along.

In the real world the discussion about different brands or pianos is not as theoretical as described here but is for the most part ruled by *price* or *budget*

To compare pianos several thousands let alone tens of thousands of dollars apart,just doesn't make any sense any longer.

Most people express from the beginning to have a certain *budget* in mind and are seeking to get the very best piano for their dollar.

I've never seen this more the case than in the current market.

The moment a shopper's budget appears flexible, entirely different instruments could be introduced for comparison again.

That is why I have come to believe comparing certain brands and models in different price ranges is starting to make less and less sense.

The pyramid is clearly being built from the bottum up and at every price range there seem to be a number of interesting and highly competitive pianos to be had in today's market.

How these pianos effectively compare to each other is even for experts increasingly hard to tell but one thing is clear, the borders are becoming far less divisive than were the past.

"You get what you pay for" will be perhaps one day be replaced by "you pay for what you're getting"

Hopefully an instrument that gives you joy.

Norbert

Not only is the type of experience important, but how open people are to change is a key to the understanding the value of advice. In my industry (IT) I see many professionals who get to my age(mid-50s) with a strong set of prejudices developed during the formative years of their careers. It can be very difficult to accept that what you know might no longer be valid, and it can impair peoples ability to be objective, or even make them so dismissive they won't even bother to do the research. When there is a lot of change, like there is today in the piano industry or when Japanese instruments first appeared on the scene, some 'experts' do not gracefully accept new realities. You don't have to look hard to find examples of that here.

That being said, the combination of experience and open-mindedness which we often get on this forum, is invaluable. Hopefully, most of us are pretty good at only entering into discussions when we have something of value to share.

Doug:



Very classy - very true!

Norbert

+1

Tdot,

I feel that my 8 year old/cheeseburger analogy was a little misconstrued. I was trying to illustrate complete opposite ends of the spectrum. If we were having a conversion about the future of the NHL, for instance, I would be the "8 year old". I don't follow hockey and have no "background of relatedness" from which to draw any sort of meaningful opinion. IMO it *would* be pompous for me to expect that my opinion be taken at all seriously by someone who actually does follow and appreciate hockey simply because it's MY opinion.
As has been the case several times in the past, I think you've perceived my post from an angle of being offensive or insulting when none of that was intended. If I've offended you, I'm sorry. It's a good reminder that there's always room for improvement when it comes to being a good communicator.

Adrean,

I don't think your Joe Blow-cheeseburger-8-yr-old post was misconstrued. I think it was misconstructed. But whichever it was, your comments here are very gracious.

When I read that post, I thought it was a bit offensive, but I was not offended. There is a difference. I did get a sense that you were pretty lathered up though.

My concern was and is that casual players who have some experience with a piano not be intimidated or silenced by aggression from players who feel (rightly or wrongly) that they have a superior basis of judgment. This is especially true when the convergent opinions of you and those who supported you reference little if any experience with the Brodmann piano.

I know from personal communications that some of the most modest unassuming infrequently-posting members here who never cite credentials are both very gifted players and very tolerant evaluators of pianos. Because of that, their posts jump off the page to me in bold 20 point caps. Conversely, there are members here whose posts shrink to 6 point italics even before I read them.

We all make our own judgments about the credibility of other members. It's probably good that we make them as silently as possible. A public forum is a public bus. The fare is the same for all. No seats are reserved. If someone clamors for a certain element to be seated in the back, those who are told that can tell the ones who would relegate them to the back to get off and ride their own wheels.

Let's get out of here and let the Kawai and Brodmann owners, players, and enthusiasts have their say.

Ok.
Cheers.

A good analogy. And even if you had seen a few hockey games or read a few newspaper articles on hockey it would still make sense but to a slightly lesser extent.

Funny YOU should say that. Is the opposite then true as well?

Hey, Turandot is one hell of a player, ever listened to his links below signature?

Norbert

Actually, I just heard them, and yes he has some nice stuff.

...I actually never clicked on the link previously because I thought it might've been some commentary on war. Maybe he should be less shy and...?

I find it interesting that the plastic action usually comes up when discussing Kawai. It is actually an advantage if you ask me. Ours will be 30 in a month or so and it is incredible how it is so good and consistent.