Okay- I just have to post this- have you ever had this experience? I'm working with a rather really well respected professor of piano- a HUGE step up from my previous teacher- it's been a few months- I'm just becoming less comfortable playing for her... I played better early on because I was less informed about my playing- now that I know what she looks for, etc., I am more self-conscious and this impacts my playing. I am frustrated because even when I know a piece rather well, I just can't perform for my own teacher. Do you think this is a bad sign- maybe it's not going to work out? How long should I give this? I'm learning so much! However, maybe I can learn as much from someone else and feel more comfortable- it's just that when I play for her- I make really random and ridiculous mistakes- it has improved a little, but my feelings seem to be at a plateau where I'm feeling like maybe I should try another teacher to see if I feel differently. Any thoughts? This is unusual- I am comfortable in public, recitals, performing, etc. This is infuriating!

...and it's not about my level of preparation. I am well practiced when this happens.

Well, this is a common quandary for adult students at any level. First of all, yes your teacher will point on what needs to be worked on, so count on that. But - and this is a big *BUT* - you cannot be thinking of all those things while you're playing. Let your teacher be the teacher and don't anticipate what they're going to say and try to make changes on the fly.

Being a teacher who still takes lessons, I often know what she is going to say, but there are also many things I didn't know that she tells me. That's why I pay her. I make silly mistakes for the usual reasons: it's not the piano I practice on, I'm not warmed up (we have early morning lessons), my mind is on a million and one other things. But I don't let those get to me. She can hear what I've worked on, even if it isn't solid when I play for her. A teacher can tell when you've practiced.

So don't think about all those details you haven't added in yet, or failed to do, etc. You're simply playing to let her know where you're at on the piece - it's not a finished work yet! I doubt your teacher thinks negatively about you when you make a mistake or forget something. Those mistakes are there for a reason, and for a teacher, it's part of our job to figure out why you made that mistake and how to learn from it.

She's not looking for negative things to say (or if she is, perhaps you should find another teacher, but I get the feeling that this is more of an issue about you, not her), and so you shouldn't be looking for negatives about your playing, either. It's a work in progress, and so mistakes are to be expected. Once you let go of perfection you actually have a better chance of getting there!

Once I let go of being perfect I have a better chance of getting there... you're right! However- maybe I need to work on my concentration -- the kind of concentration where you don't let those doubts in... hmmm, need to see a psych!
I do feel that if I hang in there- it'll get better- I'm learning soooo much- my musical sense is deepening, as is my sensitivity- I just wish I could show her just a little more of what I can do at the piano!

I so sympathize. I suffer from the same problem: Imperious, ridiculously well trained and experienced teacher, very informative lessons, but I can never play anything well enough in his presence. And I do not only mean that my playing is not up to his standards (it is not likely to ever be) but it is simply bad. I make mistakes on passages that I had practiced endlessly and when he makes suggestions / corrections and asks me to re-play some parts, sometimes whole sections just "fall apart". It is hugely frustrating. I know that it is not unusual to be nervous but I am closer to intimidated I guess, just as you describe your situation. I should add that this is totally out of character for me.
On the positive side, I have learnt a lot from him and he thinks (says anyway) that I am making good progress but I do wonder what it would feel like if I were working with an easier going teacher. I enjoy playing but I always emerge from my lessons rather defeated (and having to repeat pieces that I thought I had under control..). And more so, things have not gotten much better over the year I have been with him.
Have you discussed it with your teacher?
I have and he says that if a piece falls apart, it could be partly nerves but it is more likely that I had not yet "absorbed" it..Sorry I have no suggestions for you, but I will be reading your thread, and any updates you wish to share, with interest.

I read something in a 1922 edition of Etude magazine that really struck home for me. It was an article about "Footlight Fever". Someone named Arthur Hubbard said "My idea is that stage-fright originates in the desire to be taken for more than one's true worth." I'm not suggesting you are not a wonderful pianist. What I am suggesting is that your desire to impress your teacher is getting in the way of showing him your true value. That tired new expression, "It is what it is" really applies here. Make peace with where you are and present it matter-of-factly without the emotional baggage. If you anxiety is getting in the way of playing your best, you are cheating yourself and your teacher.

You are only as good as you are. Don't worry about whether or not you are good enough or impressive enough. You are what you are - no worse no better.

Also, when I play for my teacher (or others)I try to get lost in the beauty of the music, forgetting about the listener. I figure, if I'm enjoying myself, it will come through in my music. Playing is an act of love, not a competition.

Piano Piano, here's the answer ... let go of the need to gain your teacher's approval and focus on and enjoy the process of playing piano. Besides, the more you try to win approval, the worse it will get.

Two things come to mind in response to this dilemma because I, like many adult students, have gone through similar situations :

1 - Being intimidated by a teacher, particularly a new teacher, is a situation that undoubtedly will improve if you stick it out. I think it's a little premature to think of changing teachers, unless there is something totally overbearing in her character and/or in her manner of teaching.

2 - I think it is important that you take a few minutes time to explain the situation to your teacher at your next lesson. She can probably tell, as Morodiene has suggested, when you have practiced and when you have prepared yourself for a lesson. I do think, however, that verbalizing this dilemma will go a long way towards easing the tension that you feel (even if you are not fully aware of it) when you are playing in her presence and trying to rise to her expectations.

Regards,

You haven't given us much to go on. From your post it appears that the issues are with how you react to her, but we don't know if there is anything she is doing that stimulates this response. If the problem is within you, then so is the solution.

Nobody has a wand to wave that suddenly will make you comfortable in front of a presence you find intimidating. How can you get past that intimidation factor? As an adult student who has achieved at a level commensurate with this high powered teacher's skills, you would not seem to have any reason to feel intimidated, yet your concentration seems to weaken while working with her.

I like to think of an adult student working with a top teacher as a mentorship with a colleague rather than a simple teacher student relationship. Perhaps if you can get yourself into the mentor/colleague mind set instead of the master/student framework you may begin to feel the pressure drain away. Easier said than done, I know.

My own memories of a similar situation are quite old, and I was still young (16), but I faced much the same situation when I transitioned to studying with a prominent faculty member at a music school. The intimidation factor was really high for the first month or so. I almost felt that every error I made or every difficulty that I had in executing her instruction was a permanent black mark on my record. Eventually, however, I came to realize that she was a caring individual who just happened to have a stable of tremendously talented students, and that if I worked at it I could hold my own. Just the realization that she understood my limits and wanted to work with me to break through them helped me to relax.

Therein lies the problem.
Why is that so important to you?

Part of this is undoubtedly that as you learn, you yourself are getting more critical of everything you play. That's a good thing, and as you get used to your new more-critical listening, you'll adjust. Being able to criticize your own playing effectively and productively is a huge gift. But that gift sure can feel bad to get presented with.

It concerns me that you're becoming less comfortable with her rather than more. When I first transferred to my current teacher, I was also very nervous and self-conscious. However, I became more comfortable with time as I got used to the lessons. The teacher I had before this was the opposite: he placed higher and higher demands and displayed less satisfaction the longer I studied with him. I think he treats new students more kindly and then shows his true colours once they adjust to him...I was very unhappy and for a long time thought that my playing must be getting worse every week because I got more negative responses from week to week. I'm not saying that this is necessarily the case with your teacher, but it is potentially something to watch out for. Many teachers with reputations for turning out great students can actually be quite abusive, unfortunately. We all crave approval for the hard work we put into our music but some teachers display solely negativity, which can be highly discouraging.

What it comes down to is you're in lessons to learn, and improve.
Listen to what your teacher has to say, work on those things during the week, and come back the next lesson with those things incorporated into your pieces/scales/exercises. When your teacher see/hears that you have incorporated those things into practice, he/she will know you've practiced, see improvement, and so will you.

Lessons don't have to be lot more complicated than that. The issues you're having are ego related. Dial back on that, and you'll enjoy your lessons more, and get more out of them.

The issue of ego and wanting to prove oneself to a teacher is often invoked as the cause of "teacher fright", but I really do not think that is always the case . I hope I am not hijacking PP's thread, but speaking for myself, I do not go to my lessons planning to "show him what I can do this time", ever. In fact I do not take anything he says too personally or as a blow to my ego or self-confidence in general.
I tend to be too critical overall and that, added to this teacher's demanding style, may contribute to the situation.
But I admit that sometimes I detect a minor resentment from this teacher. He is really dedicated but also old school and very set in his ways. While he has adapted to this "american trend" of starting serious piano lessons in adulthood, he is still trying to impose a Soviet approach to the study of music and expects complete acquiescence from the student. In particular, he tries to insist on performance and meticulous scales, which is not something I am interested in. I don't know if this contributes to my insecure feelings around him, but my reaction is really remarkable and unlike anything else I experience in my daily life or job.
At any rate, I gave up on analyzing this , psychoanalysis not being my forte. I am more at home with the hard sciences (no offense to any psychiatrist that may read this :)).
All I can say is that I hope BruceD is right and that time will take care of things. But i am still toying with the idea of "trying" another teacher, jsut for a while..

Oh, that's true too. If your mind starts to wander from what you're doing at the present moment and what's coming up, you will fumble! I'm sure that if you discipline yourself to not think about her or what she's thinking or what she's going to say, etc. while you're playing, you'll do much better.

This problem arises in a number of situations, one biggie being public performance.

The only thing I have ever done that helps is to focus completely upon the music. I know that sounds trite, but the way I apply it is to actually sing the music, be it the melody, or the rhythm, as I play.

This singing can be under your breath, or in your mind (which does not work as well for me), but it focuses one much more upon the music, and thus away from the issue, whatever it is, that is causing the problem.

Hi,
I had this same problem with one of my first Piano teachers!
I would go in and talk to her but as she was so good I would feel intimidated and therefore not play to my full potential. Having been self-taught for some time, I would go to lessons fully able to play scales, sight read etc, but when it actually came to studying pieces I was put off - she was able to sight read through virtually any piece I would bring her, up to the standard of Rachmaninov Preludes and Sonatas, and, with regards to pieces, was able to play just about anything, even Balakirev's 'Islamey'... I didn't feel encouraged by this!
The way I got round this was by sticking with her until I had achieved Grade 8, as she was able to give good advice and obviously knew her stuff. Eventually I changed teachers but not before giving her a taste of her own medicine with a few pieces of Liszt...
I can't really offer you any advice other than my own experience, however if the lessons are that bad perhaps you should look at a different teacher?

Best regards,
Al

Regarding the elder teacher with the "soviet-style" approach, and the meticulous scales: To him, that is simply how it's done, and I suspect that for him there is no real alternative.

Wait a minute. Insists on performance? I insist on performance too, and I'm as post-modern American-style as you're going to find. I'm so post-modern, I even think scales with matching key signatures are only relative. (Little joke there.)

This meticulous approach with lots of scale practice goes back much further in Russia than only Soviet times, by the way. It can be abused, and probably was abused most of the time in the Soviet period, but when done properly and well, keeping beautiful music as the goal - well, where did Rachmaninoff come from?

PIANOpiano, your teacher sounds great. She's all business. You should adjust. I hope you do.



This guy sounds great. It doesn't sound like he's trying to impose anything, it's you who are trying to impose on him. Of course he expects complete acquiescence. I hope you will hang in, he must be a great teacher, you have everything to gain. Aller, vas faire tes gammes!

The problem seems clear to me. If
this is a prof. of piano performance,
that means a highly talented player
who was able to go from high
school right into a piano performance
major in college, and then from
there into grad school through the
doctoral level. So if you're trying
to play like her, forget it. You,
who couldn't even be a peformance
major at the undergrad level, are
never going to be able to do things
with the ease that she does them.
And yet you're apparently expecting
to do this, which is nonsensical,
because if you could, then you'd
be the equivalent of her, which
you can never be.

So just enjoy the dilettantish
opportunity to learn from such a
high-level teacher, and don't expect
the same kind of polished,
error-free playing that you hear
from a pro like her. That kind of
playing is beyond your ability.

Gyro, I strongly suggest you pursue studies with a teacher. You may be pleasantly surprised at what one can learn from someone much better than yourself. If a well respected professor of piano is willing to take on an adult student, it is an opportunity not to be missed!

Granted, I don't think a true adult beginner — i.e. has not played before — could expect to take on Carnegie Hall, but it's a fallacy to think that they are incapable of becoming competent pianists.

I will raise again one of my suggestions from earlier in this thread, although its effectiveness might be limited and will certainly vary from situation to situation, since teachers are individuals with varying personalities.

While it is quite possible that some teachers may relish the thought that they intimidate their students, it is also quite possible that, in some circumstances, teachers aren't aware that they might be intimidating figures and that they might like to know that. Not in the hope that their personalities would change, but in the hope that they might be more aware of what is causing some of the less than stellar moments during lessons. In some this awareness might enable them to help those students address the problem.

Certainly communication about this between student and teacher should be a consideration as one possible avenue of approach to a solution.

Regards,

That's an excellent point, Bruce. Communication is the only way it can work.

Gyro, I'm glad you're here. Because you're way more full of **** than I could manage to be even on my worst day. Gives everybody else some perspective. So, thanks.

Oh my- thank you to everyone for your responses! I am taking some of these points:
- potentially, I can and should stick with this- I really want to give this another 6 months. I know the problem is within me. I do not have difficulty performing- that is, I performed a couple of pieces well, at least to my satisfaction in front of an informal audience...only to have the pieces be terribly played in lesson. This is a repeated pattern...and the pattern itself is starting to promote a negativity that I'm noticing. Perhaps this is more reason to have a conversation with my teacher. She really is quite gentle with me- I'm sure she senses my tenuous nature during lessons. I do show very good responsiveness to her suggestions; hence, I do not feel like I am difficult to teach. Two other things bother me, though. First, she takes calls during lessons, checks email while I play ( I am distracted by her mouse clicking and typing) because she's at her desk which is to my left and behind me a bit. (This adds to her mystic and 'i am a busy professor' affect.) Second, she NEVER lets me work a piece to near perfection. I barely learn a piece...boom, on to the next one. No chance to bring the piece to a higher level, feel fluent with it, or dig deeper into interpretation. We talked about this a bit and she said that right now she wants me reading through and learning LOTS of music. However, this doesn't help me feel confident if I'm always at the rough-to it's okay phase with a piece during a lesson!
Please know that I am learning an immense amount of information. In a way, it's like a fast-paced accelerated experience of which I agree there is value! My sight reading is really improving! However, the part where I fall in love and work to a performance level is completely missing. She is not interested in working to that goal with me right now because she doesn't feel that I am ready. (duh, probably because all she sees is a rather timid person at her lessons..) So, I suppose that being comfortable eventually, may happen and maybe this is a goal. I am very lucky to have this opportunity and I don't want to lose this chance...but there's pressure here. Also, I know that she has no experience with amateur adult students. I guess I was fooling myself thinking that she took me on because she "saw something in my playing"... when, in fact, she took me on because we have mutual friends..... so, I"ll 'buck up' learn what I can, expand my repertoire for what it's worth... and move on at some point unless I become too unhappy and lose my passion for piano.....

Am I the only one who recognizes Gyro's sarcasm? So many people get offended, so I'm wondering.

Beyond the "playing badly in a lesson", which is the "problem that is within you", as you described it, there are some things you clearly do not like about this teacher. You are not wrong to dislike those things just because she is supposed to be a master. If I had a great and helpful teacher who talked on the phone during my lessons, I wouldn't care because it's worth it. If the teacher was only so-so in the first place, I'd be gone.

If you are somewhat lacking experience, the only method a busy university piano teacher has at their immediate disposal of getting you some experience, is making you play all kinds of stuff in as efficient a schedule as possible.

She may feel that your "performance chops" are just fine and therefore she would be wasting your time working on that.

She may feel that confidence (or the desire for confidence) is your enemy right now, and keeping you out of your comfort zone is part of your education.

Your standard for "performance level" may not be the same as her standard for "performance level". You may be feeling, for instance, that she keeps taking you halfway there and then going on to the next, while she may consider what you're doing as sight-reading exercise - to her it may feel like about one-eighth of the way to performance level, and you'd have to admit, if you put it like that, it doesn't constitute such a waste of time.

This kind of fast-paced supercharged learning is not something you may wish to continue every day for the rest of your life, but if a teacher is able to give you that, and you are able to "keep your head above water" in the mean time, it may be exactly what you need. Any teacher who can honestly and truly develop your sight reading is a HUGE help, even if that was all they gave you. And some teachers seem to make a specialty of getting information into you as fast as possible, exactly because that is where they themselves shine.


Well, I think I've defended your teacher (who I don't know and have never met) quite enough. The disadvantages of continuing with her are plain for you to see - hope I've clarified the other side of the equation a bit.

I'm not offended. Reading Gyro is (for me) a bit like watching Monty Python's "Phrasebook" sketch would be, if the only language I understood was Turkish.

I think that's unprofessional and inexcusalbe.



I would ask her again to allow you to learn some pieces in greater depth. Ask her to explain precisely why she wants you do what she has you doing now. I did have a college piano teacher who had me learning a new Bach P&F, Chopin Etude, and Beethoven slow movement on a regular basis without ever really finishing most of them. I don't really know if it's a good idea-back then we didn't ask why.

I guess I have to admit that as much as I am uncomfortable- I know that this is probably good for me, maybe it's like medicine - and I'll appreciate the payoff later! At some level I do know this to be true...that is why I hesitate to leave her. I know I am lucky and letting her check email and take a phone call is okay- and I am paying her well above what she initially asked for... because "I don't want to waste her time"...

This has changed my view of the piano lesson experience - as a busy, normally confident person in all other areas of my life- to be feeling like such a lucky piano student.... I would never have had access to a piano professor otherwise... so for the time being, maybe I should stick with this challenge even though I'm not loving it. I just miss working on larger pieces and taking 8 months to learn them and being with the "big guys". But (and I'm thinking out loud here) maybe I'm heading there anyway- but this time, with a stronger technique and a wider foundation of music experience.)