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#1308181 - 11/19/09 12:01 AM Mozart Rondo Alla Turca
T'sMom Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 227
Anyone else currently playing this?

I spent way too long tonight getting the hang of it. (I love the first day with a new piece).

Now it's running through my head over and over.

I wonder how long it will take til I can play it fast

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#1308660 - 11/19/09 05:22 PM Re: Mozart Rondo Alla Turca [Re: T'sMom]
T'sMom Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 227
Oh, someone must be working on this. ?? Doesn't anyone else like it?

I really want to be able to play this well.

I keep stumbling on the octaves that move quickly in the right hand. Looking for ways to stay accurate other than slowing down to a crawl.

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#1308720 - 11/19/09 06:41 PM Re: Mozart Rondo Alla Turca [Re: T'sMom]
packa Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/05
Posts: 1397
Loc: Dallas, TX
If you really want to play it well, first slow down until you can play it accurately (including phrasing and dynamics) before you start worrying about the final tempo. Looking for ways to shortcut slow practice is not a good idea IMO.
_________________________
Paul Buchanan
Estonia L168 #1718

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#1308728 - 11/19/09 06:55 PM Re: Mozart Rondo Alla Turca [Re: packa]
jnod Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/09
Posts: 794
Loc: Toronto
I've been sawing away at it for months now and it's coming - the broken octaves are quite hard and I was so frustrated that I started playing them as solid octaves. This kept my attention for the first part of the learning curve but now I'm working on doing it properly. It's possible but it's hard work and there's no alternative to just working away at it. Building hand memory is how I see it - eventually the various parts just know where they're supposed to go.
_________________________
Justin
-------
Bach English Suite #5
Scarlatti Sonata K141 . L422
Mozart Sonata K333
Schubert Impromptu opus 90 D899
Schubert Moment Musicaux opus 94 D780

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#1308768 - 11/19/09 08:12 PM Re: Mozart Rondo Alla Turca [Re: jnod]
CillaH Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 8
Loc: Toronto Ontario
This just caught my eye. Have been trying to get this under my fingers for quite a while. It's a favorite of mine.
But after plugging away on those octaves - especially the broken ones - for weeks I finally realized that it just isn't happening for me and I could be spending time more productively on other pieces! Think it's probably above my level of expertise right now so will put it away and come back later on.
Good luck to you! It's a technical devil - and moves at a clip! One day I'll master it!
I'd be curious to know what level the piece is - and how others approach learning it.I'm only at an intermediate level right now which is maybe why I'm struggling.

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#1308775 - 11/19/09 08:20 PM Re: Mozart Rondo Alla Turca [Re: CillaH]
jnod Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/09
Posts: 794
Loc: Toronto
One thing I found helpful (I often find this helpful) is to leave something I'm struggling with alone for a few weeks then come back to it. For some reason this seems to help.
_________________________
Justin
-------
Bach English Suite #5
Scarlatti Sonata K141 . L422
Mozart Sonata K333
Schubert Impromptu opus 90 D899
Schubert Moment Musicaux opus 94 D780

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#1308778 - 11/19/09 08:24 PM Re: Mozart Rondo Alla Turca [Re: T'sMom]
Canonie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 1941
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: J&Smom
Oh, someone must be working on this. ?? Doesn't anyone else like it?

I really want to be able to play this well.

I keep stumbling on the octaves that move quickly in the right hand. Looking for ways to stay accurate other than slowing down to a crawl.

It's a great movement, so full of fire and sparkle. I loved it's appearance in the BBC Pride and Predjudice tv series, and the very snooty look on the face of the pianist. (Anyone else particularly fond of that scene? especially the really bad playing and singing just before it?)

I don't play it properly, have read it through quite a few times and thought about learning it all the way. Perhaps J&S you are giving me the excuse to put it on my list smile . This sonata is in my maybe column on my current repertoire list (that I had to make up so that i didn't just graze, but learnt some good pieces all the way, and not be endlessly distracted by reading through new piece and workng for only a day.)

I will check in on this topic and enjoy your progress.

Other posters: Yes 8ves are hard! and need a different kind of movement at speed than at slow, so it is good to find this, one hand at a time, as a separate technique to use in the piece. Try staccato 6ths scales with loose wrist, relaxed shoulder, that helped me as 6ths make it easier to develop habit of soft hand in repeated 8ves. Then use slow and fast for the passages in the piece. develop movements as ministudies along side of this piece. Oh well it might help, worth a try. Very challenging at speed that's for sure.
_________________________

Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it.
Alex Ross.

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#1308786 - 11/19/09 08:43 PM Re: Mozart Rondo Alla Turca [Re: Canonie]
jnod Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/09
Posts: 794
Loc: Toronto
The first movement of that Sonata (K331 I think?) is beautiful - one of my all time favourite piecees. The challenge is bringing enough individuality to the assorted variations - some of them, particularly the last two - can sound kind of repetitive. Second movement is a little odd. But over all I highly recomment this Sonata.
_________________________
Justin
-------
Bach English Suite #5
Scarlatti Sonata K141 . L422
Mozart Sonata K333
Schubert Impromptu opus 90 D899
Schubert Moment Musicaux opus 94 D780

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#1309068 - 11/20/09 09:15 AM Re: Mozart Rondo Alla Turca [Re: jnod]
T'sMom Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 227
There is a video on You Tube of two children playing this as a duet. I think they are brother and sister, around 11-12 years old, and they are SO GOOD. I keep rewatching them and am so impressed.

I'm new to lessons after a ~30 year gap. Still trying to figure out what to play and how to best make use of the instruction time. My teacher suggested something different (Tchaikowsky Seasons, October). I didn't find it inspiring so thought I'd try this Mozart instead. His philosophy is that adult students should select their own pieces, with some guidance, based on what moves them. This is my first crack at it.

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#1310299 - 11/22/09 10:27 AM Re: Mozart Rondo Alla Turca [Re: T'sMom]
T'sMom Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 227
The octaves are killing my right shoulder. I don't usually have any discomfort w/piano playing. Must be doing something wrong. I suppose I'll have to wait for my next lesson to find out.

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#1310580 - 11/22/09 07:04 PM Re: Mozart Rondo Alla Turca [Re: T'sMom]
Canonie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 1941
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: J&Smom
The octaves are killing my right shoulder. I don't usually have any discomfort w/piano playing. Must be doing something wrong. I suppose I'll have to wait for my next lesson to find out.

Sorry to hear about that j&s, hope your lesson will sort it out. I have 8ve technique on my list of questions for tomorrows lesson and will use the rondo as a context. Probably a good idea to make sure my 8ve technique is good before I launch into learning this piece properly. My shoulders are fine, if i feel anything it's in the hand, but as i said i'm waiting until after tomorrow to really work on this. At least you dont usually have any issues like this.

All the best, Canonie
_________________________

Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it.
Alex Ross.

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#1311198 - 11/23/09 09:13 PM Re: Mozart Rondo Alla Turca [Re: Canonie]
T'sMom Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 227
Canonie, did you find out anything?

I've discovered that sitting further back seems to help the octaves, for some reason. My arm is much straighter that way. I'm really curious to see what my teacher has to say but don't have another lesson for 2 weeks.


Edited by J&Smom (11/23/09 09:14 PM)

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#1311435 - 11/24/09 09:57 AM Re: Mozart Rondo Alla Turca [Re: T'sMom]
kokomo61 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 678
Loc: Herndon, VA
I'm working on it - it's my 2nd go-round - I worked on it about 6 months ago...this time around, the first 2 pages seem easier at a (faster) speed....but my speed in the final section can't match what I can do on the first 2 pages.

The Octaves are OK for me at a slow speed, and I seem to be able to do the broken chords/drum roll in the LH OK....but as I speed up, I tend to get a bit sloppy.

The broken RH octaves are OK at slow speed only for now. My teacher keeps telling me to relax my arm/hand so that I don't get tired.

It's a fun piece, and while I'm not 'good' at it, I never thought I'd be able to play something like this a couple years ago. Having come off of the Beethoven 'Pathetique' recently, that's given me confidence to try pieces like this. Once I wrap up this g-round, I'm going for a Chopin Nocturne that has a lot of LH jumps, which is also challenging for me.

AFA Rondo Alla Turka, it's my goal to do this one for the next recital, but we'll see if I make it, or chicken out and throw in my Ray Charles piece.
_________________________
Estonia 190, #6098

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#1311437 - 11/24/09 09:59 AM Re: Mozart Rondo Alla Turca [Re: kokomo61]
kokomo61 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 678
Loc: Herndon, VA
BTW, I saw a funny license plate the other day...

This car:



With the license plate "ALA TURK".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kc34Uj8wlmE
_________________________
Estonia 190, #6098

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#1311936 - 11/25/09 02:28 AM Re: Mozart Rondo Alla Turca [Re: T'sMom]
Canonie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 1941
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: J&Smom
Canonie, did you find out anything?

I've discovered that sitting further back seems to help the octaves, for some reason. My arm is much straighter that way. I'm really curious to see what my teacher has to say but don't have another lesson for 2 weeks.


yes, it was a good lesson. For my staccato double 8ves I was using a prepared attack. I was doing this because I was practising these scales slowly. But in this part of the rondo the 8ves are fast so that you (or I) play from above the keys - you can't do it any other way. The trick with preparation exercises (said teacher) is to play slow staccato 3rds (with fingers 2 and 4 always), then slow 8ves with the same movement that you need for fast.

She said do the "bouncing ball" using movement at the wrist only. My LH wasn't lifting enough between each 8ve, she suggested a deliberate lift (like waving). The forearm is used only for the sideways movement to a new note. Practise a little, keep very soft and bouncy, exaggerate a little, but Rest often, and only do a little each day. My RH basically has this movement but my LH is unco crazy

My hunch is that a good and healthy piano player uses a number of movements for fast 8ves, especially loud 8ves would move from as far up as the upper arm. Perhaps this is to develop wrist use in an intermediate player, and later after this is comfortable she might develop my 8ve technique that calls in the larger muscles with more stamina.

The other thought is that the wrist bounce may always be perfect for Mozart, but wouldn't get anyone through a Rach concerto for example. Anyway my teacher is fab so I'll be following this advice for now.

Sitting back sounds good, you can't sit close with a vigorous piece smile Yep 2 weeks is loooong to wait.
_________________________

Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it.
Alex Ross.

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#1311981 - 11/25/09 06:14 AM Re: Mozart Rondo Alla Turca [Re: T'sMom]
cjsm Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/10/06
Posts: 134
Loc: Washington, MO
I practice this on occasion. I can play the theme and the third section fairly well, but like others, the octaves, especially the broken octaves, are the hard part. Especially considering the arpeggios in the left hand. Also the coda is fairly hard.

What I do with a piece like this, I just work on the broken octave section and the coda, and ignore the rest, since I have it fairly down. I treat it like a technical excercise. I haven't been lately because I've been playing other pieces. But when I did have it on my schedule, I was improving on it significantly. I figure if I practice it consistantly for a couple months I'll really have it down, and improve my basic broken octaves technique to boot.

BTW, I've seen this piece rated faily low in difficulty. The theme and third section might be, but the broken octave/apreggio part and coda? That seems early advanced to me.

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#1312065 - 11/25/09 09:58 AM Re: Mozart Rondo Alla Turca [Re: cjsm]
Sean M. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/16/09
Posts: 97
I am learning this piece right now, too. Before this I'd mostly played some Chopin romantic stuff and this is quite different and new for me. It's proving pretty challenging for me. But I am getting there. The end is in sight.

After practicing it for a long time, my right wrist hurts a little from really banging away at those octaves as loud as I can with my hand stretched out like that. Probably I oughta work on my technique there but I guess I lose control during that loud, powerful part!

Regarding those broken octaves: If you were playing this up to speed, wouldn't it pretty much just sound like the higher note, with the lower note being a gracenote? (Does that make sense?)

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#1312210 - 11/25/09 02:29 PM Re: Mozart Rondo Alla Turca [Re: Sean M.]
T'sMom Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 227
Someone on another thread was talking about using more action at the wrist for octaves. That seems to help. Sort of exaggerating the wrist up and down. I think I was using too much forearm. I'm focusing on the "intact" octaves earlier in the piece first. I put the last couple of pages on hold for now.

Sean, I know what you are saying about the broken octaves. I guess it depends on which one you emphasize more, the lower or higher note (which is the right answer? I need to listen to a recording again and pick it out).

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#1312885 - 11/26/09 04:57 PM Re: Mozart Rondo Alla Turca [Re: T'sMom]
Frozenicicles Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/02/09
Posts: 1324
Loc: Canada
I played a Haydn sonata with a lot of broken octaves and found them a lot of fun. The trick for me is just to have fun with them and not tense up. In fact, that's the trick to playing a lot of "hard" passages. Tell yourself that it's not hard and you will relax and be able to do it.

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#1313498 - 11/27/09 06:53 PM Re: Mozart Rondo Alla Turca [Re: Canonie]
TimR Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3219
Loc: Virginia, USA
Originally Posted By: Canonie
For my staccato double 8ves I was using a prepared attack. I was doing this because I was practising these scales slowly. But in this part of the rondo the 8ves are fast so that you (or I) play from above the keys - you can't do it any other way.


Yes.

This is why slow play doesn't work. You learn to play slowly, using mechanics that don't work at speed.
_________________________
gotta go practice

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#1313696 - 11/28/09 03:17 AM Re: Mozart Rondo Alla Turca [Re: TimR]
Canonie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 1941
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: TimR
Originally Posted By: Canonie
For my staccato double 8ves I was using a prepared attack. I was doing this because I was practising these scales slowly. But in this part of the rondo the 8ves are fast so that you (or I) play from above the keys - you can't do it any other way.


Yes.

This is why slow play doesn't work. You learn to play slowly, using mechanics that don't work at speed.


Yes! When playing the piece I was almost at tempo and thus played from above the keys. But I hadnt worked out how to slow the this movement down (using a scale) to better develop a good staccato 8ve technique. I wanted to know how to do the fast movement slowly, as well as fast. Slow legato chromatic double 8ves are a completely different motion. This piece is a good example of a piece where it is good to practise one section at a time and use fast slow and medium speeds to learn the notes and the motions required.

To play very clean at speed - I think this piece is beyond my technique at the moment. Might wait a few more pieces until I learn it through. But I think I'll take the problem of those RH chords with grace note in the coda to my lesson this week as I'd like to know how to do them. Challenging! Then I'll be well armed when I get back to tackling the whole piece.
_________________________

Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it.
Alex Ross.

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