Hiya nice to have found you all, I'm Mr Vinyl

I'm struggling to work out some chords for a new muse song, - for example what chord is a A flat, C flat and an F

It is the first inversion of a diminished chord with F as the root. A diminished chord is a minor third above the root and a diminished fifth above the root. Since the lowest note is the minor third it is the first inversion. A perfect fifth would be C so the diminished fifth is notated as C flat. On a piano C flat is the same as B.

This is probably the wrong forum for this question. You would get a better response if you posted in the pianist or composer forum.

C-flat and B are enharmonically equivalent. Theoretically they're different notes, but they're played on the same key on a piano.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enharmonic

An interactive chord finder should be helpful. There are a number of them on the Net; this is my favorite:

http://www.gootar.com/piano

BTW, the chord you asked about is F dim. (If you post questions like these in the Non-Classical Forum or the Composers' Lounge instead of the Piano Forum, you're likely to get more (and faster) responses.)

Steven

The answer depends on whether you're just trying to play a song, or whether you're analysing and wanting to name things accurately.

C flat is the B key on the piano. Whether or not you call it the same note depends on your purpose. What you call the chord you describe depends on the context, but the keys you play (if that's what you're after) are A flat(=G#), B, F.

(woo, snap! We three posted together.)

RIGHT OK, thanks as I'm new here I didn't realise will post in another section next time

In answer to your question. Yes.

All the complicated theory aside, a c flat is indeed a b.

I think that's the best answer on here. :-)
Somebody who asks a question like that isn't up for all those details on the theory.

Don't feel bad about it.....I'm new here and it took me a while also to get the hang of what "Piano Forum" means......

It's where pianos gather together for discussion and lively debate!

...isn't it?

Yes, that's my current understanding.

"All" those details may not be necessary, but I don't think there's any reason to dumb down the answer to the point of inaccuracy. It might be easier to tell a child or someone with a learning disability that "c flat is indeed a b," but in fact it is not. Most people here are surely able to comprehend the reason why, even if that requires learning a bit of new information.

Steven

Sure.
But I think the other answers weren't merely "not dumbed down."
They were on a level that the poster wouldn't understand and probably couldn't care less about.

We got into some similar stuff on the G minor Ballade thread. When we answer somebody's question, we don't necessarily have to gear it exactly "to" the person, and indeed we don't. Our posts usually are just as much for ourselves -- i.e. what we enjoy and feel like talking about -- as they are for the questioner, and of course that's fine.
But I think it's a good idea to have the posts be at least somewhat geared to the questioner, especially the first few posts. And I think these weren't in the least.
Sorry.

Even if the elaborate explanations weren't merely "not dumbed down," the answer you praised as the best of the lot certainly was.

Speaking for myself, I definitely tried to address the OP's concerns in an appropriately balanced way. Part of customer service and troubleshooting is that one can't know the details of a stranger's skill set, knowledge or intelligence. Nevertheless, a few presumptions must be made (with due caution) lest one create the impression of talking down to some or going over the heads of others.

It's quite possible that I misjudged the OP's interest or capability, too. Subsequent to my first post here, he asked in another subforum for identification of a new list of chords; obviously the link I offered to an online chord finder (which would have provided immediate answers) wasn't found to be useful.

But I tried.

Steven

I'm glad you mentioned 'customer service' because it's a great example.

When I deal with customer service, which like everyone else I do as little as possible, I'm constantly having to tell the reps (most of them, not all) 2 things:

-- Please answer me directly; don't scramble it up with things that I didn't ask about and which are just confusing the issue.

-- Please don't use jargonistic words and phrases, because while I'm sure you know what you're talking about, I have no idea. Talk to me simply, please.

I don't expect others to agree with me or to follow what I'm saying. In fact, oftentimes on here I myself haven't followed it; I talk about what interests me on a subject. But I have complete confidence in saying that when you use terms like "enharmonic" in an early reply to a post like this, you're not talking to the questioner in a meaningful way.

Really? After all, the notes are enharmonic for all practical purposes. Don't see why one wouldn't mention the term.

When you talk to someone, you don't care whether the words are meaningful to them or not? (not to mention the ideas.....)

"Enharmonic" goes to the critical concept involved in understanding why C-flat is not B.

My default presumption about people is if they ask about something, they are both interested in the subject and capable of absorbing new information about it.

Telling someone that a note and its enharmonic equivalent are the same, without qualification, is akin to treating him as incompetent. I think that's demeaning.

Before this becomes an example of that tendency you described to write for your own enjoyment, why don't we just agree to disagree instead?

Steven

Hence the Wikipedia link Steven provided. Let's just agree to disagree...

Well, for what it's worth, I thought my answer was geared to what the poster probably wanted to know, but I qualified it because I didn't actually think it was blindingly obvious what he wanted. I said:
"The answer depends on whether you're just trying to play a song, or whether you're analysing and wanting to name things accurately."
Which was it? I'm still not quite sure.

"C flat is the B key on the piano. Whether or not you call it the same note depends on your purpose."
That's a reasonably simple but accurate answer, no?

"What you call the chord you describe depends on the context, but the keys you play (if that's what you're after) are A flat(=G#), B, F."
He asked "what the chord was" - I didn't know whether he wanted the name, or the names of the notes. The former depends on context and I said so.

Agree totally.

I thought your post was fine -- more than fine.
I also thought it was pretty clear what he was asking -- i.e. what-the-heck note on the piano do you play when it says C-flat, is it just basically "B." I agree that it wasn't clear just from the post, but taken together with the TITLE of the thread, it was clear. But regardless, I thought your post addressed him nicely.

I tried to take care to say that I was only talking about most of the early replies, not all. But it looks like I slipped up in a spot or too and didn't make that clear, and I'm sorry about that.

That's ok . I'm feeling a bit ornery today. Must be the weather. (35C)

35C???

Let's see, 9/5 of 35 is 9 x 7, that's 63, plus 32, that's 95.....

OK, 95 degrees........Sounds OK to me.

P.S. Just wanted to see if I remembered how to do that.....

Just because it hasn't been said, some jazzers would look at Ab Cb and F and think Ab-6 which is a tonic minor chord that would imply a different scale for improvising than F dim.
One other thought: Cb and B are only different when descriptive theory is involved. To a computer that measures sound frequencies or a self taught musician who doesn't read music Cb and B *are* the same note.
Just another angle.....

I thought it's where you make excuse for not practicing at the piano.

Seems like just another pianocentric angle.

By the same token, are C-sharp and D-flat the same note? Granted this is a Piano Forum, but all music doesn't revolve around the piano.

Steven

I'm not sure because I'm not a jazzer, but as near as I can tell: Great point.



.....and I in turn will say this, because I don't think it's been said:
I guess those notes are the same on the computer, and certainly they are on the piano.

But to a singer, or to a violin as well as many other instruments, B and C-flat are not the same.

This relates to the "theoretical" point, in that it's determined (sort of) where the note "goes to."
C-flat tends to go down, to B-flat (or at least "wants" to go there), so the note "leans" in that direction.
B, on the other hand, tends either to go up, to C; or to be a stable note.

So.......For a singer or with an instruments where you can control the pitch, C-flat will usually be lower (a tiny bit) than B.

Actually anything can be an excuse, up to and including a real good rerun of Gilligan's Island on TV.

Same as what I said (up there) for C-flat & B. (Of course?)
I'll be interested in if you agree with that.....