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#1308336 - 11/19/09 08:58 AM How long distance from center pins of hammer flange to wippe
A=443 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/23/02
Posts: 109
Loc: Japan
Please tell me. I am repairing New York Steinway A type manufacturing number 245... now. The felt of the hammer rail is old, and unstable. The hammer knuckle is delicately different in size .(use to new Hammer shank RENNER)
How long distance from center pins of hammer flange to wippen flange ? confused


Edited by A=443 (11/19/09 08:59 AM)

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#1308377 - 11/19/09 10:03 AM Re: How long distance from center pins of hammer flange to wippe [Re: A=443]
Cy Shuster, RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/18/05
Posts: 3448
Loc: Albuquerque, NM
Welcome to the forum!

We call this distance the "action spread". It has changed over time. How old is the piano?

Renner can help you:
http://www.rennerusa.com/RennerActionParts.asp

--Cy--
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#1308709 - 11/19/09 06:19 PM Re: How long distance from center pins of hammer flange to wippe [Re: Cy Shuster, RPT]
pianobroker Offline
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Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 4309
Loc: North Hollywood CA.
Cy,The piano is most likely a 1926 AIII of s/n 245... Action stack is the same as an AII. I usually buy Renner USA the modified style(larger knuckle)#913029 shank flange and #913048 angled heel wipps. This is what my rebuilder prefers as for Renner USA parts. Can't complain,they feel great on a AIII. Center pin to the wippen flange on these new parts is 113mm.


Edited by pianobroker (11/19/09 06:21 PM)
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#1308714 - 11/19/09 06:32 PM Re: How long distance from center pins of hammer flange to wippe [Re: Cy Shuster, RPT]
A=443 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/23/02
Posts: 109
Loc: Japan
Thank you Cy
This Steinway piano was made 80 years ago.

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#1308716 - 11/19/09 06:36 PM Re: How long distance from center pins of hammer flange to wippe [Re: pianobroker]
A=443 Offline
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Registered: 01/23/02
Posts: 109
Loc: Japan
Thank you pianobroker
>Center pin to the wippen flange on these new parts is 113mm.

I understood. I readjust.

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#1308867 - 11/19/09 10:43 PM Re: How long distance from center pins of hammer flange to wippe [Re: A=443]
Cy Shuster, RPT Offline
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Registered: 12/18/05
Posts: 3448
Loc: Albuquerque, NM
Another important distance is hammer flange center pin to knuckle. This has a huge effect on the force to push the keys down.

Are the action rails OK? There are people who repair them.

--Cy--
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#1308959 - 11/20/09 01:35 AM Re: How long distance from center pins of hammer flange to wippe [Re: Cy Shuster, RPT]
pianobroker Offline
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Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 4309
Loc: North Hollywood CA.
It just dawned on me as for this 1926 Steinway A.It actually makes a difference as for whether the piano is a Hamburg A or a New York A. In that you are in Japan,is it a Hamburg A.? If it is,retract what I recommended earlier.
Hamburg specs are different therefore different parts.


Edited by pianobroker (11/20/09 04:53 AM)
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#1308995 - 11/20/09 04:37 AM Re: How long distance from center pins of hammer flange to w [Re: pianobroker]
Supply Offline
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Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
Originally Posted By: pianobroker
It just dawned on me as for this 1926 Steinway A.It actually makes a difference as for whether the piano is a Hamburg A or a New York A. In that you are in Japan,is it a Hamburg A.? ...


Hmmmm... the first line of this thread reads:
"I am repairing New York Steinway A... "

(I know - it happens to the best of us sooner or later...) thumb
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#1308997 - 11/20/09 04:49 AM Re: How long distance from center pins of hammer flange to w [Re: Supply]
pianobroker Offline
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Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 4309
Loc: North Hollywood CA.
Oh man! Retract my retraction Duh! Who's buried in Grant's tomb? cry
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#1309449 - 11/20/09 08:17 PM Re: How long distance from center pins of hammer flange to w [Re: Cy Shuster, RPT]
A=443 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/23/02
Posts: 109
Loc: Japan
Hi Cy
>Another important distance is hammer flange center pin to knuckle.

Does the meaning that you say : from a center pin to the center of the knuckle board?

action rails is fairly good, but the red under cross is old.

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#1309454 - 11/20/09 08:32 PM Re: How long distance from center pins of hammer flange to w [Re: pianobroker]
A=443 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/23/02
Posts: 109
Loc: Japan
Hi pianobroker

The hammer knuckle chose a diameter of 10mm, but 9mm may have been better. (Renner new shank)
Because a rail cross is old, as for the problem, all hammer flange cannot do installation evenly.

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#1309467 - 11/20/09 09:07 PM Re: How long distance from center pins of hammer flange to w [Re: A=443]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
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I suggest that you contact the Parts Department at Steinway for advice.
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#1309565 - 11/21/09 12:24 AM Re: How long distance from center pins of hammer flange to w [Re: A=443]
Cy Shuster, RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/18/05
Posts: 3448
Loc: Albuquerque, NM
Originally Posted By: A=443
Hi Cy
>Another important distance is hammer flange center pin to knuckle.

Does the meaning that you say : from a center pin to the center of the knuckle board?



Yes, that's correct. It's usually 17mm.

--Cy--
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#1309579 - 11/21/09 01:21 AM Re: How long distance from center pins of hammer flange to w [Re: Cy Shuster, RPT]
pianobroker Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 4309
Loc: North Hollywood CA.
17mm is the present Hamburg spec which is also available via Renner USA.
15.5 mm is the distance for the the Renner USA "original" which utilizes the 9mm knuckle for higher ratio action.
16.5 mm is the distance for the "modified" shank flange which utilizes the 10mm knuckle supposedly for a lower ratio
setup. I personally prefer the larger knuckle feel giving a smoother,lighter lower ratio feel. Personal preference

A=443 What part you use depends on the pianist's preference as for high or lower ratio. Do you have the Renner sample parts
kit?

Disclaimer: nontech opinion


Edited by pianobroker (11/21/09 02:46 AM)
_________________________
www.pastperfectpiano.com
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100+Steinway and M&H grands
Warehouse showroom Onsite Restoration
Preowned & Restored
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Voo0zumHGgE

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#1310728 - 11/22/09 11:53 PM Re: How long distance from center pins of hammer flange to w [Re: A=443]
A=443 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/23/02
Posts: 109
Loc: Japan
hi Pianobroker

>the 9mm knuckle for higher ratio action.
16.5 mm is the distance for the "modified" shank flange which utilizes the 10mm knuckle supposedly for a lower ratio
setup. I personally prefer the larger knuckle feel giving a smoother,lighter lower ratio feel. Personal preference


I understood.
Is level rattling of hammer shank flange corrected by paper or felt?

Unfortunately  I don't have Renner sample partskit.
I'll try again.


Edited by A=443 (11/22/09 11:55 PM)

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#1310770 - 11/23/09 03:29 AM Re: How long distance from center pins of hammer flange to w [Re: BDB]
A=443 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/23/02
Posts: 109
Loc: Japan
Hi BDB
Thank you very much.
Do you repair Yamaha piano?

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#1310971 - 11/23/09 02:01 PM Re: How long distance from center pins of hammer flange to w [Re: A=443]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
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Loc: Oakland
I repair all sorts of pianos.
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#1312144 - 11/25/09 12:34 PM Re: How long distance from center pins of hammer flange to wippe [Re: pianobroker]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: pianobroker
Cy,The piano is most likely a 1926 AIII of s/n 245... Action stack is the same as an AII. I usually buy Renner USA the modified style(larger knuckle)#913029 shank flange and #913048 angled heel wipps. This is what my rebuilder prefers as for Renner USA parts. Can't complain,they feel great on a AIII. Center pin to the wippen flange on these new parts is 113mm.


Hello, pianoBroker, long time...

How can you obtain 113 - or 112.8 spread on those old stacks where the spread was originally most often 112 or 112.5 , and the flange had a shorter dimension between the screw and the hammer center ? (this is the case for all German models butwas it the same for the NY ones ?)

Most often I find that new parts on old stack gives a 112 mm spread at best and often 111.5 mm , then the action is a real pain to be regulated.

I suggest that it is useful to move the action rail when mounting new parts.

The dimensions I like to find for older NY Steinwyas (small models S-B) is the distance of the whippen centre from the strings, or the distance from the hammer center from the strings (note 1-88)

The basis of the action placement seem to be the whippen centre from the string dimension. I also like to understand if NY actions where more wedged than the German ones, hence which is the vertical dimension between the centers ( 64 mm ?).

Thank you in advance . Ill try to provide useful things as well.

Best regards.

Olek
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#1312152 - 11/25/09 12:45 PM Re: How long distance from center pins of hammer flange to w [Re: A=443]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: A=443
hi Pianobroker

>the 9mm knuckle for higher ratio action.
16.5 mm is the distance for the "modified" shank flange which utilizes the 10mm knuckle supposedly for a lower ratio
setup. I personally prefer the larger knuckle feel giving a smoother,lighter lower ratio feel. Personal preference


I understood.
Is level rattling of hammer shank flange corrected by paper or felt?

Yes you can paper a flanche if the center is not well aligned, but you usually have to be careful when screwing the flange for the first time, as this is when the screw makes its circular on the flange, afterthat it will tend to go back there. You can move it screwing the flange in another place while holding the shank with some pressure.

a little lube helps for the screwing.

Old Steinway stacks and keyboard where intended for a very high ratio, around 7.0; far tfrom modern (5.5) so you can end with 11.5 mm key dip with modern parts if you dont take that in account.

Modern parts and heads hardly can be used with those high ratio, adding tons of lead or using assist spring will help but the feel of the action can remain heavy. I believe that original shanks/heads where more than 1.8 g less in the treble for instance (shank -0.4, hammer -1.4g).

This is the basis of the problem with old actions the key leverage is often high (big advantage on the key side) and the stack is accelerating more than actually. When you use modern parts compromises are necessary ,like shimming below the whippen flange to get to a better spread, but then the key need a long keydip so the hammer stroke is 45mm (at last)

Having samples of the parts may help to experiment before changing.

Good luck

Olek


Unfortunately  I don't have Renner sample partskit.
I'll try again.


Edited by Kamin (11/25/09 12:46 PM)
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#1312155 - 11/25/09 12:49 PM Re: How long distance from center pins of hammer flange to w [Re: Olek]
Olek Offline
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Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
I am unsure that changing the roller for 9 mm change the action ratio a lot, more probably it change the speed of the letoff, which get faster.
The shank ratio change a little because the roller is less tall but if it is at the same 17 mm distance, the global ratio will not wary much, friction will (for the less)
My point of view, I can be wrong (may I ?!!!)
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#1312167 - 11/25/09 01:15 PM Re: How long distance from center pins of hammer flange to w [Re: pianobroker]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: pianobroker
17mm is the present Hamburg spec which is also available via Renner USA.
15.5 mm is the distance .....


Disclaimer: nontech opinion


Sorry, I did not see that - nevermind other authorithies are welcome (gimme your little secrets ya !!! )
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#1312169 - 11/25/09 01:21 PM Re: How long distance from center pins of hammer flange to w [Re: Olek]
Olek Offline
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Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
distance from the screw to the hammer center (modern flange ) : 34.5 mm

Old flange : 33.5 mm

if the original spread was 112.8 Ok it may be playeable (sometime after shimming the whippen flange) but it can be easely seen that the jack does not place well under the roller (and that particularely if the original roller was at 115.5 or 116 mm, then no way it will not work smoothly even if you move the jack the farther possible).
That is when you have to order new whippens and have the stack rebuild.





Edited by Kamin (11/25/09 01:25 PM)
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#1312661 - 11/26/09 07:46 AM Re: How long distance from center pins of hammer flange to w [Re: Olek]
A=443 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/23/02
Posts: 109
Loc: Japan
Thank you Kamin

>This is the basis of the problem with old actions the key leverage is often high (big advantage on the key side) and the stack is accelerating more than actually. When you use modern parts compromises are necessary ,like shimming below the whippen flange to get to a better spread, but then the key need a long keydip so the hammer stroke is 45mm (at last)

I have thought. confused
It is a difficult problem.
Anyway I decided to change a hammer flange rail cross for a new thing.


Edited by A=443 (11/26/09 07:51 AM)

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#1313718 - 11/28/09 04:41 AM Re: How long distance from center pins of hammer flange to w [Re: Olek]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
I guess Steinway part dpt have some suiteable parts. Problem with the old whippens is that you cant regulate the jack position, (only with a felt) .

Abel makes flanges with the small dimension, but I never tried them. You need samples to experiment.
the ribbon on the rail is somewhat thick (1.1 mm).Some use bushing strips there.
The rails are cracked and may be changed if you see the drop screw making waves.
On older instruments the screws dont hold very well so better directly have the stack rebuild (specialists are rare) . On the German rails you will also need new thicker screws. A completly new stack cause a lot of problems generally because the spacing of the screws is not the same on old models.
_________________________
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#1313720 - 11/28/09 04:46 AM Re: How long distance from center pins of hammer flange to w [Re: Olek]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Rebuiliding correctly or even only changing the heads and shank on an old Steinway is always somewhat tricky. Experience and a little reflexion helps(in the end !).

Basic setups are availeables that works, but in any case you have to understand hammer and shank weight to be used.

That said I've seen a professional pianist that refuse to feel the 80 g downweight and 11 + key dip of its old model B with a modern hammer and shank installed, and pretend it have a normal touch !
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#1313765 - 11/28/09 08:41 AM Re: How long distance from center pins of hammer flange to w [Re: A=443]
A=443 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/23/02
Posts: 109
Loc: Japan
Hi kamin
>Rebuiliding correctly or even only changing the heads and shank on an old Steinway is always somewhat tricky. Experience and a little reflexion helps(in the end !).

I think so too,

>That said I've seen a professional pianist that refuse to feel the 80 g downweight and 11 + key dip of its old model B with a modern hammer and shank installed, and pretend it have a normal touch !

I was interested very much and surprised.
Thanks

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#1313948 - 11/28/09 03:36 PM Re: How long distance from center pins of hammer flange to w [Re: A=443]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
I exagerated a tad, but I recall measuring with the weighs more than 70 gr in the medium range. despite the shimming of the whippen flange)

Seen also a tech that had baught a new Steinway hammer set with shanks/flange for his model D from 1920 +- and was unable even to get the jack under the roller, it slips off the roller always..

experiment to get more spread, it goes in the good direction. What kind of hammers do you want to use ?
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#1313950 - 11/28/09 03:38 PM Re: How long distance from center pins of hammer flange to w [Re: Olek]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21803
Loc: Oakland
The new shanks should work with a 1920s Steinway, but you need to adjust the jack rest position. Those were made adjustable in the 1890s, so it should not be a problem.
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#1314003 - 11/28/09 06:25 PM Re: How long distance from center pins of hammer flange to w [Re: BDB]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Your experience ? may be the D was before 1920 I am unsure but not before 1900 (a German model) no way to have the jack under the roller.

a lot of things differ when the roller is at 15.5 mm, and if you can t get to 112 mm spread at last you have touch problems.

How much is the distance from the whippen center to the jack center on 1920 whippens ?


Edited by Kamin (11/28/09 06:26 PM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#1314009 - 11/28/09 06:37 PM Re: How long distance from center pins of hammer flange to w [Re: Olek]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21803
Loc: Oakland
If there is no fly button, Steinway sells shanks to fit made by Renner. If there is a button, but it does not move far enough, you can bend the spoon.
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