I have a baldwin acrosonic spinet at home that I received for free. I don't believe it had been tuned or played regularly for awhile, so I had it tuned. I had just started playing so I thought all was well, I am pretty sure all my technician did was tune it. He said that it was in good condition and had done a good job tuning it as far as I was concerned. At the end of the summer I went back to college and started lessons here, but I practice here on a steinway B that is tuned and regulated quite often for performances. So I get home over a fall break and find my piano to be quite difficult to play, but what I think it needs is a good regulation. Regulation here I am assuming to mean the maintenance of the action and all the parts that go into transferring momentum from my hands to the hammers to the strings. The largest thing I found wrong with my spinet at home was that it had no range, it only had a forte.

So my question to you guys is, reasonably speaking, can I hope to get a decent range out of my spinet if it is regulated properly? And if so what specifically should I address to my technician?

You might be able to. However, you might be able to find a better piano for the same amount of money. You really need to talk to technicians in your area.

Well the thing is, I have this piano already. I mean unless regulations cost more than a new piano I dont see how that would be cost effective. Also I had been under the impression that acrosonics were pretty fine spinets.

The Acrosonic is not new, and there is no law that you have to replace it with a new piano. There are good used pianos available quite inexpensively if you are patient.

PianonaiP:

It kinda sounds like you have already made up your mind.

No matter how good the condition of your spinet, now or after regulation, it will be nothing compared to what you are used to.

Ask you tuner about it. He is the one familiar with it's condition. If it really is in great shape, he may not be able to do much. If it could use hammer shaping and regulation, then there is a possiblity for improvement, but probably not enough to satisfy you. And money put into a spinet usually stays there. It is rarely recovered if sold.

You could ask this question at the Teachers Forum also. There is a certain level of playing that you eventually reach where only very few specialized high end uprights would give you the proper sound and tactile feedback you need.

You may still argue that a spinet is better than nothing or hope to be versatile enough to deal with the issues of all piano types. This is both practical and of value from a certain point, but I think other performers/teachers may enlighten you as to some of the drawbacks of having your abilities held back by outgrowing your instrument.

By new I meant new to my possession not necessarily as in manufacturing. I have thought of shopping for a new piano, but mainly my question was improving my current piano.

My technician is going to have a look at it next week over my thanksgiving break. I wanted to prime myself for this occasion, as well as have a few other opinions since really I have only the slightest of ideas about what goes into regulating a piano.

Im not looking for it to be as good as the steinway I play on now, just if it can get me through the summer. As well I haven't played on many different spinets to be able to make a comparison to mine, I was simply wondering how much the action can be manipulated on them and if there was something to ask him to look at specifically.

I had figured it needed regulated by how light the keys were to press down, as well if I pressed them hard or pressed them soft, the difference in loudness was not very significant.

However, it looks like I might be out of luck judging by the responses so far.

It really depends on your expectations. I have a nice, 5' Chickering grand that I keep tuned and well regulated, but it still pales in comparison to my friend's B which I get to play on a regular basis.

I did not say that it could not be improved. I said that it might be cheaper to replace the piano with something better.

I got the acrosonic I have at home for the same price. It is in pretty good regulation (I keep it that way), but there is NO WAY that it will have the same "feel" as a Steinway Grand.

Even with regulation, the Acrosonic may have limitations due to wear. If the key bushings are worn, or the pads above the key capstans are out of alignment, the piano could always feel heavy to the touch.

Your technician should address all of these issues as well as regulation. All together, the total work could be somewhat costly compared to the value of the instrument, or the cost to purchase a better used piano.

Let us not forget the grand repetition lever. There are fundemental differences between the vertical action and grand action. The best vertical action will never out perform a well regulated grand. Apples and oranges.

Keep this in mind, an Acrosonic is one of the pianos that technicians love to hate but Liberace was known to have one in his dressing room for warm up. No, it will never be like a Steinway grand but it can be properly regulated. Unless it has already had excessive use, I would disregard the comments about wear.

There is a good chance that you can get the piano in good order within a day's work and for a fee that is commensurate with that. You just have to find a technician who knows how to handle that type of piano and is willing to do the work. You may well encounter an individual who comes off as "too good" to ever do anything for a spinet. That person may, in fact be too busy with fine pianos to be able to help you but can also be the type who proudly says that he would not regulate a spinet. There are plenty of them. They are the type who take a month to regulate a grand and charge more than your piano is worth to do it and the results could be highly questionable.

The dis-assembly of of the case parts and removal and replacement of the action of an Acrosonic are difficult but someone with experience with it knows what to do and takes it in stride.

A spinet action can be regulated so that the touch is even and the repetition is very nearly as fast as the finest grands. The hammers can be shaped and voiced so that they respond to a soft touch as expected and deliver power when the keys are used with force. I believe that is what you are looking for.

Most any such piano was set up at the factory with the expectation that no one would probably ever do anything but tune it for 30 or 40 years. Well, the time has come. They are set up with a minimum blow distance (the distance from the tip of the hammer to the string when the hammer is at rest), maximum let-off (escapement) and maximum after touch (the distance the key travels after let-off). This is to insure that every key will "kinda-sorta" work even though nobody ever does anything to the action and is the reason you are now getting only one level of dynamics from the piano.

If you can find a technician who knows what to do, how to do it and is willing to do it, the process would begin by removing the case parts (the giant fallboard) and action, tightening all flanges, lubricating any sluggish ones and re-pinning any overly loose ones, removing all the keys and vacuuming the dirt and debris from underneath them and totally cleaning (vacuuming and/or blowing out) the rest of the interior.

The hammers are filed and as the action is replaced, they are aligned to the strings. This is done with the keys still placed aside. The keys are then replaced and leveled. It is most efficiently done with a straight edge, not some elaborate jig. Then, a maximum blow distance for the hammers is determined and a minimum let-off. Then, a minimum after touch and checking distance for the hammers (the distance the hammer is held from the strings when the key is played and held down) is made. The dampers should begin to lift when the hammer is about half way to the string.

When all of these services have been accomplished, the piano will play as you well expect it to and as the manufacturer ultimately intended. The technician will need to maintain that precise regulation in the future, principally by adjusting the capstans (the adjustment screw on the end of each key) but this maintenance will not require a full dis-assembly of the case parts nor removal again of the action for many years.

You should expect maintenance of the regulation because the specifications have been set to their maximums as they often are in fine grands. The requirement for regulation maintenance is really no different in either one. Without such maintenance, the piano may well develop such symptoms as "bobbling hammers". The Acrosonic is as a resilient instrument as any. With proper care and maintenance, it will perform as you expect it to and be useful for practice and study when you are away from the fine grands to which you have become accustomed.

Think about the Acrosonic the way you would bringing a beloved pet to a veterinarian or a cheap old car to an auto mechanic. The Acrosonic needs and deserves many of the same types of techniques and respect that a larger, finer piano requires. You just have to find a technician willing to provide those services, who knows how to provide those services and will do so willingly at a price that is right for you and the piano itself. The ultimate price will depend on the market area in which you live but should not exceed much the cost of 4 piano tunings. The services should not take longer than a full day's work or day and a half at most and should not require removing any part of the piano to a shop unless unusual problems are encountered.

If you reveal the area in which you live, perhaps some recommendations about whom you should contact may be made.

I respectfully disagree. The reason a vertical action does not have a repetition lever is that it does not need one. Apples and oranges yes, but there is the difference, the vertical action is vertical and the grand action is horizontal. If the vertical action (whether large upright, console or spinet) is precisely regulated, it will perform as well as (or nearly as well as) the finest grand.

To the original poster: I see that you are in the "central PA" area. If you can give a more precise metro area, we all may be able to give you better referrals.

Should I be kicked off here for my "extreme views"? I think not. I challenge anyone to refute what I have said about this matter.

I agree with you on this, especially your point in your earlier post about techs not lowering thier standards to work on spinets.

Emmery, Great post and as such a great idea. However, I believe the responses I get would be a long the lines of, if this is indeed a possibility that I should be able to hear that I need a new instrument, as well I dont see how it wouldn't be possible to grow out of a piano. So this is something I might post if I get my piano regulated and still are worrying about it. A very interesting thing to consider though.


Bill, exactly the post I was looking for, you realized what it was I was asking and looking for and gave me as well the response I was looking for. My current technician if I remember correctly was at one time a preforming pianist, I dont know about a professional, but he did it for a living. Now he works a part time job and tunes pianos when he can get the business. As well he has tuned and refurbished pianos for several decades. The last tuning I got was 68.00 which I think would be a little low for the going rate.

Im glad you realized that I am just looking for something that I can still advance on through the summer, and not a grand that I will be performing on.

Very interesting process, I am not sure if it is something my current tuner would be interested in, or if he even still does it. However, it might just be the job hes looking for. The piano, as far as my untrained eye has looked at it, looks good from what I remember, the hammers seemed clean, nothing broken, ect. Randy Karasik had pointed out that the keys might feel too heavy, it is quite the opposite. The keys are pressed down very easily.

I live very close to the Williamsport Pennsylvania area, where the little league world series is held every year.

If I can grant any other information let me know.

PianonaiP:

If you are around Trout Run or North, you are in my area. My number is in the Canton phone book.

I understand what Bill is saying, but believe that there are things that a vertical action just cannot do performance-wise.

Upon re-reading your post, the emphasis you place on your spinet is the "lack of range".

If excessive wear isn't an issue, and regulation can be brought to within an acceptable range, then the next issue you may need to address is voicing. Is the piano too mellow or too bright?

After the hammers are properly shaped and aligned, they can then be hardened or softened with various methods, depending on what your preference is. Since you mention that it is always 'forte', then the hammers may be too hard.

Consider that as part of the assessment.

Bill,

I agree with you that many people suffer with their older uprights, not knowing that regulation can greatly improve their playability and enjoyment of the piano, especially after wear of all the felt over time throws the movement of the keys off (just like a parking brake lever needs to be readjusted to compensate for wear).

Have you ever put new tires on a car, and noticed the dramatic improvement in ride quality and handling? Regulation can give a similar dramatic improvement. (A better analogy would be replacing the hammers, which would also give you more dynamic range; felt hardens over time).

--Cy--

The only vertical pianos that rival (or exceed) a fine grand's performance would be D. Fandrichs' modified vertical action in my opinion. If there wasn't a need for vast improvement on vertical piano actions, Mr. Fandrich would not have otherwise wasted his time inventing a good solution to some age old problems. I have played one and know first hand.

Simply put, if the mechanism can re-cock the jack for a successive strike without having to let the key come back up very far (like the grands repetition lever facilitates), rep speed increases. Direct control of the hammer through the key is also maintained for a wider range of key position. The grands' action has a more precise and consistent position for where this re-setting takes place. The other key point with a grand is that gravity assists the hammer rebound in a uniform way. Unlike springs, gravity does not wear and tear, require lubrication or maintenance and is consistent.

For practical purposes, how close are the finest grands and properly regulated verticals in this comparison? Miles apart in my opinion. If I try to play the C# repetitions in Liszts' H. Rhapsody #2 at the proper speed and dynamic level on a vertical that is properly regulated, I often lose notes. But when I play it on a fine grand piano, the notes all come out and it is a joy not to struggle with the limitations of the instrument.

I am far from being a concert level pianist or a "Liberace" but 99% of pianists are in the same boat. We are the ones that benefit the most from any advantage a pianos performance offers us.

Emmery, you need to talk to Jack Wyatt RPT, Golden Hammer award winner, President of the PTG Foundation and curator of the PTG Home Office museum. He will change your mind about the above. Any spinet action can be regulated so that the jack returns upon the slightest lift of the key. It is all in the longer blow distance, minimum let-off, close checking distance and minimal after touch. The after touch has to be fine regulated just the way it would be on a fine instrument.

This seems to be another example of where you have turned a blind eye to the information that you could have benefited from all these years and could still benefit from yet you have clearly stated you do not want it and will not have it. In your mind, you have the diploma, you took the tests and you don't want to pay dues to the USA government. You already know everything there is to know about spinets and that is that they are no good.

However, what I know to be true is that if the verticals you have regulated skip on trills, they are not properly regulated, plain and simple. If you treat a vertical like a dog, it will play like a dog. If you give it the same respect you would give a finer instrument, it will perform far beyond your previous expectations.

It's threads like this that make it worth one's time to regularly check these piano forums! What a great thread.
Thanks to ALL of you for voicing your opinions here.

Bill, I have regulated both grands and verticals, including plenty of spinets to the satisfaction of my customers. I refuted what you stated because YOU invited anyone to to do so. Please don't turn this into another one of your JournalThumping diatribes, we all know how you feel about your own kinfolk.

I am not the only one who feels the way I do about a spinets' limitations, many techs including RPT's share this view. Many concert pianists share this view, just about every recording studio and concert hall shares this view. It is not because of sound limitations alone. The quality of workmanship, quality assurance and materials are inferior on any companies spinets in comparison to their finest grands, the price difference bears this out. These are important things if the envelope is pushed in regulating and you want the piano to function reliably and consistently in home environment. Rarely is it worth it to try and make a silk purse out of a sows ear with anything.

I know a spinet can be regulated to specs as good as new and we can even tighten up some specs and tweak the regulating to get extra performance. From a practical sense few techs push this envelope because they don't want to be called back when the temperature/humidity changes in the customers house or an overweight singer leans on it and it becomes unreliable or outright unusable.

You are correct about your extremist views, so why get in a tiff where you feel the need to draw my background and schooling into question? Looking back through multitudes of threads you always seem to weave the PTG into things in a controversial way.

I suggest you read your own organizations code of ethics rule #6 and ask yourself why you interpret the "profession" they are referring to as only your members. You certainly don't promote "good will" towards me...and I am in the profession.

While your at it read the ethics #5 rule and ask yourself, "why didn't I go college and fill in all the holes that the minimalist exams don't address". Putting an action model together properly has little to do with regulating all the parts consistently, and circling answers on a written test don't show squat about what you can do with your 10 fingers.

As for the highly respected technician you mentioned, I wouldn't mind reading what he has to say on it. If he or the PTG want $$ from me to do so, I'll pass LOL. After many of the top engineers in Nasa said the O rings were OK, I take any kind of "expertise" with a grain of salt. I'll believe it when I see it.

As a matter of fact I will go one better. Why not have this "highly respected technician" drop by here and explain to all of us how exactly he is going to make a Baldwin Acrosonic spinet play like a Steinway B which is what the OP is after.

This is something I just have to read.

From me,

I guess I should be banned for my extremist views. An Acrosonic can well serve as a useful practice instrument and that is all the original poster wanted to know. The technician who would be willing and capable of rendering that service does not necessarily need to be an RPT or a member of PTG. But from the responses he got, I seem to be the lone wolf that says it can be done. Nobody, including me, ever said they could turn an Acrosonic into a Steinway B. What I did say was that an Acrosonic can be regulated so that it performs as intended, whether or not those performance specs are carried to their extremes as they often are on fine pianos.

Let's ban PTG from this forum and let it all go to those who know better. Then, we'll have nothing but people who say to a guy, "buy a $50,000 piano or better, that will solve your problem". There are many, many, many very fine technicians who don't belong to any organization at all. They all have diplomas and have passed tests that far exceed the meager standards of PTG. They all know everything there is to know and the most important thing they know is that an Acrosonic is useless as a musical instrument and they would not lift a finger to try to improve the performance of any of them. They would only tell somebody it would cost more than the piano is worth, so forget it, buy a Steinway.

Yep, I am really extreme, so ban me because I would actually take care of that Acrosonic and move on. It would all be in a day's work for me.

Dan, Jack Wyatt has no more time for you than you do for an Acrosonic. In order to know what he teaches and performs, you would have to attend a PTG convention.

Your little piano can serve well as a practice instrument. You just have to find the right technician to service it. Obviously, none of the guys on here are the right ones.

I am an intermediate player picking up piano again in my 40's. I currently have the Baldwin Acrosonic that my parents bought new for me, in the late 1960's, when I was just starting lessons as a little girl. It hadn't been tuned for well over a decade before we moved it from my parents' house.

The technician who tuned it after the move said it was excellent for a spinet. But spinets just don't have as good sound as grands or even uprights. Doing regulation, voicing, etc on it is apparently labor intensive as the whole thing is folded up in a complex pattern inside, unlike a grand piano where the parts are well laid out and easily accessible. So our technician told me that beyond the tune, it would be labor intensive (expensive) to improve its voice. His opinion was that it was good enough for now, and that I should buy a grand if I or my children really stick with piano for the long haul.

I have definitely heard of technicians who are too "snobby" or busy to work on spinets.

Just another 2 cents.

ETA: about it only playing "forte": I just wrote in another thread about the action on this piano being very light compared to my teacher's Steinway grand. A common issue w/spinets, apparently.