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Is she good at sight reading, but just doesn't pay attention to the fingering?
I'm not experienced as a teacher, but my opinion would be that at this stage, it might be a tough sell for a kid to accept that using the right fingers really matters, when the pieces that she's playing don't really demand it. If you can show her that the pieces sound better with proper fingers (maybe due to better legato or something) then maybe that could motivate her, but if she is playing them perfectly with her random fingers, that's a tough one... The other thing you could do is maybe give her some pieces that demand careful fingering. Maybe if she feels more challenged she'll be motivated to be more diligent.
The other thing to keep in mind is that a lot of music for advanced pianists isn't going to spell out every finger number for the students anyway, so rather than being able to read finger numbers that are printed, perhaps it's also important to be able to deduce the correct fingerings yourself. So, if I were you I would probably not stress out too much about fingering, but just have her play a lot of different music from the score, and have her naturally develop her sense of what fingers work and what don't, and when you see her struggling or see places where she isn't playing legato etc, maybe you can give her tips on how to handle cases like that.
Just my 2 cents, apologies if there are any inaccuracies in my post!
Carol is trying to get the kid to sight-read more and learn "proper" fingering. I say hogwash!!
If the kid can play that well, by just listening to a song once, why bother to change the method. Encourage her to do more of the same.
Fingering is just a means to the end. Do what feels most natural and easy to you. That may be different from the standard or normal way.
Why force the kid to read music if she can hear in her mind how it sounds and relate to it on the piano. You are just making it harder for them.
Wizard dude: If you were sincere about the cutesy "illiterate and proud of it" schtick, you would not also boast about your previous education. Your old teachers got you where you are today, whether you enjoy admitting that or not. All the stuff you learned back then, and which you may claim to have forgotten, is what makes you able to do what you do. Whatever that may be, oh Mr. Jazz Master.
#1309606 - 11/21/0904:55 AMRe: This child is too musical!
[Re: david_a]
keyboardklutz
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
The Wiz is right to insist the ear is more important than the eye but obviously both need to be developed. Wieck taught Clara by ear for the first few years but he was teaching her keyboard harmony not Mrs Mills!
#1309627 - 11/21/0907:43 AMRe: This child is too musical!
[Re: keyboardklutz]
Canonie
1000 Post Club Member
Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 1941
Loc: Australia
CarolR She sounds like a great student to teach. A student with good ears coupled with good musical memory makes teaching such a pleasure. Hope you have lots of success tempting her down the path to useful reading.
With a student like this I continue to put time into playing by ear skills. Might as well continue to develop them while they are young, and hopefully that can help with any resistance to the difficulty of reading. I think it would be a bit of a shock for a really good ear-player like this to have to change to reading all their pieces first by themselves, no matter how good for sightreading. With a child as quick as this one you could play an extra piece for them right at the end of the lesson and say, "take that home and learn it" and they probably can I suppose it's a matter of judging how much she is enjoying the new reading skills, and if and when she wants a break from it. It will be good to hear how your student gets on Carol.
For the poster who thought otherwise, I'd be another "classical" type who can play by ear. Just because some players value notation, and try to improve sightreading doesn't mean we don't value by-ear. Actually; playing by ear, hearing a score in your head, sight singing and good music memory are all good for sightreading. It doesn't have to be 2 sides of a tall fence.
But I would agree that getting a child to read every single note they play or sing in music lessons may miss developing some important musicality at a sponge age. But I haven't yet resolved how much of each, or how and when to introduce reading in each case.
_________________________ Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it. Alex Ross.
Registered: 11/03/08
Posts: 1073
Loc: Western Australia
This is a timely topic.
Just this afternoon, I was teaching an angel of a student (12 year old girl), who oozes musicality, and soaks up information like a sponge.
She lost her mother, some 18 months ago, and feels that when she plays the grand piano, that her mother played, that she has a connection. Hard to put this into words, and I almost tear up when thinking about it, but she has had several teachers with whom she couldn't get on.
Her father told me that on her first lesson with me, some six months ago, that he knew we would be a good fit. He said that if she didn't like me, she would avoid eye contact. Needless to say, we hit it off from the start, as I allowed her to be herself, and played some things for her, that she probably had never heard before, (some of my own compositions, and improvisations)
Today, we were discussing playing left hand octaves, so I played the left hand of a well known Yann Tiersen piece.
She watched me, then immediately played exactly what I had just demonstrated. I didn't have the music with me, but played the right hand part, as she played the left.
Although she played her part by ear, and memory, she is excited to receive the score next week, so that she can learn it by reading.
I suppose what I am trying to say, is that a combination of both skills, is important, and neither needs to be exclusive.
The Wiz is right to insist the ear is more important than the eye but obviously both need to be developed.
I would never deny that the ear is more important - otherwise what would music be for? It's only insisting that reading has no place that's ridiculous.
I don't teach. That said, I'm not entirely sure why teachers would advocate that the ear is more important. ? It seems to me that this would depend on the goal/purpose of the player. If the player wants to, say, join a band, or go out and play in a cocktail lounge and be able to take requests of songs they've never played before or have no music for, sure obviously the ear is king. However if they want to be performing certain repertoire, or, say, accompany soloists on demand for something like auditions for a musical, then the eye is crucial. In fact the ear, in my mind, could be a hindrance at those times, since sometimes it is easy to assume you "know" where a harmony is going and then you can play innacuracies (or, say you're playing accompaniment for an arrangement of something where the expected harmonies have been changed). And the less predictable the music, the less helpful your ear would be, I would think? Who can say that one skill is the more fundamental?
I derisively laugh in your general direction sir. You completed the highest level at the Royal Conservatory of Music (which, I'd like to ask is what level? when and with whom were your studies?) yet make a statement such as this... Any individual having attained the highest possible degree offered by RCM would never venture to make such an asinine statement. Thanks for helping to close out my day with a good laugh though.
hey Kenny, why exactly are your credentials? Why don't you post some of your piano playing and we'll see how it sounds. Pick a jazz standard and do some improvising for good measure. Or can you not play by ear as well?
Oh, and what's with the Angela Hewitt fetish, you got a thing for her don't you?
Don't go the way of Gyro, back up your claims. I'll be waiting, or the joke's on you. =)
david, classical and jazz are two completely different idioms which requires distinct approaches. Yes, classical gave me the piano technique to play, but it was lacking in many other areas.
I learned jazz on my own. I had to train my ear, learn new rhythms, brush up on jazz theory. The ability to read music well came about last on that list, I had no use for it other than to decipher lead sheets. Even then, I'd rather use my ear to hear the melody.
I ain't no jazz master, but let's hear you do some improvising for fun.
It’s the old conundrum ... aural memory/ sight-reading ... both are critical to sustained advancement .
Here we have a case of a pupil (some 2%) who can mop up a tune in moments and regard this generic skill as a means to duck the laboured sight-reading bit ... a truly musical student is one who can balance the intuitive aural memory with the sight-reading chore.
Just so my quote from yesterday has some clarification, when I stated that, "this", has nothing to do with being musical (before I went on to suggest implementing slow practice) I was referring to the last bit of the quote above that reads, "a truly musical student is one who can balance the intuitive aural memory with the sight-reading chore." What that has to do with being MUSICAL is beyond me. Clearly, some here simply love to see their words in print. Truly musical playing has nothing, whatsoever, to do with aural memory, or sight reading. I know some pianists who can sight practically anything and some that can play most anything after hearing it once and a great number of them do NOT play musically at all. After reading some of the posts here, I truly fear for the students of many who call themselves teachers. I've not ever seen so much drivel in one place in regard to musical education.
I derisively laugh in your general direction sir. You completed the highest level at the Royal Conservatory of Music (which, I'd like to ask is what level? when and with whom were your studies?) yet make a statement such as this... Any individual having attained the highest possible degree offered by RCM would never venture to make such an asinine statement. Thanks for helping to close out my day with a good laugh though.
hey Kenny, why exactly are your credentials? Why don't you post some of your piano playing and we'll see how it sounds. Pick a jazz standard and do some improvising for good measure. Or can you not play by ear as well?
Oh, and what's with the Angela Hewitt fetish, you got a thing for her don't you?
Don't go the way of Gyro, back up your claims. I'll be waiting, or the joke's on you. =)
As I thought would happen the basis of my post would be ignored and the questions I posed would be replied to with questions in turn. Where, might I ask, did I mention Angela Hewitt? She does happen to be a friend, but I never invoked her name at all. No, the joke is not at all on me sir, but rather on you as your reply rather proves with your evasion of all that I asked.
OK, that was interesting to read. Now. Back to the topic at hand. I think the majority of us understand that the ear and the ability to read manuscripts are both important. Thanks for the thoughts and suggestions. I very much agree that at one point, a musician needs to be able to look at a score, and interpret it into music without listening to it first. That isn't to say that that 'ear' doesn't come into play in making it musical. Interpreting the music and making it our own obviously involves using a well developed ear. To me, there is no question that reading is essential. I also don't think there is any way to ruin this student's well developed ear and mind and musicality. There might be some things in this process that aren't exactly fun, or easy, for her, but this is the time for her to learn to read, not when she's older and it's harder.
Excellent point about the fingering. Eventually, one needs to learn how figure out the fingerings oneself. BUT, I think that comes with time - using lots of common fingerings early on, helps. Also, being able to read the music well enough that you can predict what fingers you'll have to use. But I love the idea of having her figure it out, with guidance.
_________________________
Working on: Beethoven: op. 110 Schubert: Sonata D959 Granados: Maiden and the Nightengale Lieberman: Gargoyles
Dude, do you want me to mail a copy of my ARCT certificate to you?!
Like I said, what is your piano background, do you play only classical or jazz as well? I'm betting it's only classical.
As for Angela Hewitt, Google can be a great thing :
Kenny Wood
2008-05-08 11:15:31
Dear Miss Hewitt,
Your souvenir programme came in the mail yesterday and I have to tell you I read through it twice in the space of two hours (just as soon as I could open the envelope!) It's such a beautifully constructed programme and I absolutely love it! Having scoured literally hundreds of google hits (if not more) in the quest to learn more about your background and your musical viewpoints I learned more through your programme than I ever knew before. There is a wealth of biographical information inside that I wasn't aware of and so many photographs I'd never seen as well...I'm really quite fond of the pictures I'd never seen from your childhood and your early career. And then there's one insert that has had me riveted every time I open the book and it's that of the 23rd Goldberg variation from your own score...when I first saw it my eyes got wide and I actually said "Wow" (out loud!) The story about your mother that you've included in the diary pieces section was so precious and moving and I love the sock photo! I really must agree with Keith Shibuya who's programme contribution from Japan states "I cannot be the only one wishing to accompany Angela throughout her world tour..." Thank you so very much for taking the time to put all of this together for all of us! It's much more than just a souvenir and I will cherish it always.
Wishing you sunshine, health and happiness, Always,
Kenny
100's of google hits?! Photos and stories of mom? Sounds like an obsession to me... Why don't you ask her out on a date, I don't know how she takes to stalkers though. Can't hurt to try.
CarolR, I disagree with one needing to learn to read a music score and interpret it first before listening.
The ear is the first, middle, and last point for all music. What's the point of getting someone to play a Chopin Etude without them knowing how it's even supposed to sound?!
That's like asking someone to learn French or German by reading phonetically and not listening to the language. I've heard Asian ESL students trying to learn English by reading first, before speaking. Man, they sound horrible!
Try doing this with your student, pick a simple song and get her to play it once just by reading the score.
Then get a good quality recording of that song, play it to her once and get her to play it. See which sounds better. I'll bet it's after she listened to it.
klutz: Of the music that you played with no recordings, did you hear the song from others first or did you just play it on it's own? It probably took you a hundred times to play to get it to sound decent. It still may not be the way the composer intended.
Do you know the Star Wars music theme? How so, probably cause you watched the movie many times and heard it.
Try this, find the score to Star Wars, ask someone who doesn't know how it sounds, and get them to play it. See how close it resembles the original. You can do this with more obscure music that only you may know.
A piano player has no frame of reference when just looking at a score. It's useless without HEARING IT.
Or find someone who has never heard of Beethoven's Fur Elise and get them to play it. Bet it sounds bad. Now let them hear the song 100 times and then learn it. Now they can internalize it in their mind.
It may not be possible to know how anyone plays from their posts, but it sure is easy to see who the adults are. :-)
I just started taking lessons--just had my third. I play a number of other instruments, some by ear, some by music, and a bit of piano by ear, not particularly well, but I wanted to learn to play classical music, mostly early stuff, Bach and Scarlatti, for instance. I also thought sight-reading would be a cool skill to have, and I wanted to understand things like fingering and technique. There's more than one way to skin a tune, and it seems ludicrous to claim otherwise.
Where, might I ask, did I mention Angela Hewitt? She does happen to be a friend, but I never invoked her name at all.
Kenny Wood, now is Angela a "friend" in the personal sense? Like you could call her up and talk or go out for coffee, or did she respond to your e-mail and now you consider her a good pal.
A white lie is still a lie. Game's getting weak my "friend".
#1309811 - 11/21/0901:50 PMRe: This child is too musical!
[Re: Wizard of Oz]
Pogorelich.
3000 Post Club Member
Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 3663
Originally Posted By: Wizard of Oz
Dude, do you want me to mail a copy of my ARCT certificate to you?!
Like I said, what is your piano background, do you play only classical or jazz as well? I'm betting it's only classical.
As for Angela Hewitt, Google can be a great thing :
Kenny Wood
2008-05-08 11:15:31
Dear Miss Hewitt,
Your souvenir programme came in the mail yesterday and I have to tell you I read through it twice in the space of two hours (just as soon as I could open the envelope!) It's such a beautifully constructed programme and I absolutely love it! Having scoured literally hundreds of google hits (if not more) in the quest to learn more about your background and your musical viewpoints I learned more through your programme than I ever knew before. There is a wealth of biographical information inside that I wasn't aware of and so many photographs I'd never seen as well...I'm really quite fond of the pictures I'd never seen from your childhood and your early career. And then there's one insert that has had me riveted every time I open the book and it's that of the 23rd Goldberg variation from your own score...when I first saw it my eyes got wide and I actually said "Wow" (out loud!) The story about your mother that you've included in the diary pieces section was so precious and moving and I love the sock photo! I really must agree with Keith Shibuya who's programme contribution from Japan states "I cannot be the only one wishing to accompany Angela throughout her world tour..." Thank you so very much for taking the time to put all of this together for all of us! It's much more than just a souvenir and I will cherish it always.
Wishing you sunshine, health and happiness, Always,
Kenny
100's of google hits?! Photos and stories of mom? Sounds like an obsession to me... Why don't you ask her out on a date, I don't know how she takes to stalkers though. Can't hurt to try.
First of all, any idiot can get ARCT if they try hard enough. It doesn't mean you're a genius... you don't even have to be a good musician to get it.
Second of all, grow up.
_________________________ 'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'
Where, might I ask, did I mention Angela Hewitt? She does happen to be a friend, but I never invoked her name at all.
Kenny Wood, now is Angela a "friend" in the personal sense? Like you could call her up and talk or go out for coffee, or did she respond to your e-mail and now you consider her a good pal.
A white lie is still a lie. Game's getting weak my "friend".
Why are you stalking someone and googling their personal life? That's far more scary (and offensive) than someone telling a little white lie on a forum.
#1309820 - 11/21/0902:04 PMRe: This child is too musical!
[Re: Wizard of Oz]
Pogorelich.
3000 Post Club Member
Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 3663
Originally Posted By: Wizard of Oz
A piano player has no frame of reference when just looking at a score. It's useless without HEARING IT.
Oh really... HAHAHAHAHA... I wonder then how the great artists played back when they weren't listening to recordings, especially to learn a new piece, and I wonder what they did when premiering new works.. such as works of Rachmaninoff. Jeez, they must've been horrible. Yeah, pfft, Horowitz. Or Richter.. yuck.
_________________________ 'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'
Why are you stalking someone and googling their personal life? That's far more scary (and offensive) than someone telling a little white lie on a forum.
Stalking? I just did a quick search and found some interesting stuff. At least I didn't google someone 100 times "literally", as Kenny Wood says he did... now THAT's stalking!!!
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I suppose it's a matter of judging how much she is enjoying the new reading skills, and if and when she wants a break from it. It will be good to hear how your student gets on Carol.
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