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I'm really kidding. How could a child be too musical? Well, let me just say that she just turned 9 years olds and if I play something for her (which I don't do, but her mother does) once, she can play it. She just did this to the 'Spinning Song'. She can learn a piece instantly. Sometimes, she doesn't even have to hear the music, she can just predict where it's going. To get her to slow down and read the music, and especially, I just discovered, to pay attention to what fingerings she is using, is, in her mind, such a bother! I just spent a good part of her lesson promising that great things would happen if she would use the correct fingerings the first time she played through the piece. I have her doing sight reading drills, but they are so beneath her level, that they have no fingering challenges at all.
Its a gift to have a student like her, yet she presents really different problems than my other students!
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Working on: Beethoven: op. 110 Schubert: Sonata D959 Granados: Maiden and the Nightengale Lieberman: Gargoyles
I have a student a little bit like this as well (same age, but mine is a sight reader more than she is a listener). She certainly won't slow down, anyway. She'll grab something like Burgmueller Op. 100 and just read right through the whole book. OK, she'll say, what should we do next?
I certainly didn't teach her to be this way. If I had, I would soon be rich.
Where do they get it from? (Neither of this girl's parents are musicians, AND she has a terrible little keyboard at home. Piano should arrive this month, FINALLY!)
#1308989 - 11/20/0904:15 AMRe: This child is too musical!
[Re: david_a]
btb
3000 Post Club Member
Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 3506
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
It’s the old conundrum ... aural memory/ sight-reading ... both are critical to sustained advancement .
Here we have a case of a pupil (some 2%) who can mop up a tune in moments and regard this generic skill as a means to duck the laboured sight-reading bit ... a truly musical student is one who can balance the intuitive aural memory with the sight-reading chore.
It’s the old conundrum ... aural memory/ sight-reading ... both are critical to sustained advancement .
Here we have a case of a pupil (some 2%) who can mop up a tune in moments and regard this generic skill as a means to duck the laboured sight-reading bit ... a truly musical student is one who can balance the intuitive aural memory with the sight-reading chore.
That has nothing to do with being "musical". Being "musical" is an entirely different discussion altogether. Obviously, this student has quite a gift if he/she can play through a work after hearing it just once and more than likely has natural relative or perfect pitch working for them as well. The problem is that what they're doing is mere imitation and as a result they're really not learning anything that they'll proffer from later. One way around this problem would be to introduce the habit of slow practice (which SHOULD HAVE already been done). Have the student present a work at their lesson at no greater than half tempo, with the appropriate fingerings, phrasing, articulation, dynamics, etc. If they're not able to do this, then they're not ready for further work on whatever it is they're working on. Slow practice is an absolute must for ANYONE who seriously wishes to advance. Take any piece you play and take it at no greater than half tempo and I'm willing to bet that you'll find you don't know it nearly as well as you think you do.
kennywood, your points are good in a way, but Carol is talking about a nine-year-old who may or may not be an absolute beginner.
And if such a young student gets arbitrarily prohibited from doing what they are already good at, they are quite likely to give up altogether. You can't expect weeks- or months-long capacity for delayed gratification from someone this young.
#1309163 - 11/20/0911:53 AMRe: This child is too musical!
[Re: kennywood]
btb
3000 Post Club Member
Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 3506
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
The hillbilly with 4 notches on his gun-belt figures that he is ready to challenge the top-guns.
The staid old logic "have the student present a work at their lesson at no greater than half tempo" is suggested as a key to ... presumably musicality ... what rot!!
Some of the respected members of this Forum carry 10,000 notches ... and have, with respect, learnt not to go off half-cocked.
This student comes with 2 years behind her (two different teachers), and started with me in September. Neither teacher insisted on starting at the basics with her, and that's exactly what her parents want me to do, to back up and make sure she gets a solid background in reading and technique.
I think one thing that may be helpful for her is playing more contemporary music with less predictable patterns. I find that she struggles more with this kind of music, which is a good thing for her.
I also am starting to see that we need to allow plenty of time in the lesson to make sure she is learning a piece by reading the notes and fingerings, not by ear. (Her mother knows not to play a piece for her, but I know she probably slips up sometimes.) I've made the mistake a few times of sending her home with a new piece - and it comes back learned, but with pretty random fingerings.
btb- I think what you are saying is that a good musical STUDENT is one who can incorporate all the skills needed to learn music. But this is not to say that this child is not exceptionally musical. Those are two different things.
It's interesting to teach her. I'm learning new things every day! Not only that, she's a great kid.
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Working on: Beethoven: op. 110 Schubert: Sonata D959 Granados: Maiden and the Nightengale Lieberman: Gargoyles
#1309214 - 11/20/0901:06 PMRe: This child is too musical!
[Re: btb]
eweiss
2000 Post Club Member
Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 2393
Loc: Beautiful San Diego, CA
Originally Posted By: btb
It’s the old conundrum ... aural memory/ sight-reading ... both are critical to sustained advancement .
Here we have a case of a pupil (some 2%) who can mop up a tune in moments and regard this generic skill as a means to duck the laboured sight-reading bit ... a truly musical student is one who can balance the intuitive aural memory with the sight-reading chore.
Note reading is not required for anyone to be a musician. In fact, this "generic" skill (playing by ear) is the most valuable one a person can have if they're interested in playing an instrument.
Registered: 04/08/07
Posts: 1019
Loc: Phoenix Metro, AZ
This sounds slightly familiar Can she read rhythms? By which I mean, can she clap them out correctly without having heard them? Would doing that with more complicated rhythms (than the current sight-reading music) be a way to short-circuit the "cheating" by listening?
When I was a kid, I was guilty of combining my sight-reading and aural skills...My rhythm reading skills were behind my note-reading skills (still are, in fact, altho they are much improved), so I would finagle my teacher into playing or tapping out the rhythm of the trouble spots, then I'd grab the notes (and easier rhythms) by sight reading.
I was guilty of bizarre fingerings too. Until I got into music where *I* could tell that using subpar fingerings was limiting my playing.
It sounds like what you are saying is that she's a natural musician without a good foundation of piano technique. Piano currently happens to be her tool to make music. The trick, of course, is to convince her that technique, in and of itself, and good reading, is a worthy goal. Some of that may just come naturally as you work with her and she gets into music where she has to work harder.
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Originally Posted By: eweiss
Note reading is not required for anyone to be a musician. In fact, this "generic" skill (playing by ear) is the most valuable one a person can have if they're interested in playing an instrument.
Note reading is not required. But a musician who cannot read notes is an illiterate musician.
Folk music and bluegrass have a strong tradition of aural learning...if you happen to play instruments like mandolin, fiddle or banjo.
Jazz has a strong tradition of improvisation. HOWEVER, the best jazz musicians I have known (and I have known some excellent ones) had a better understanding of music theory than most classical musicians and NONE of them would have argued in favor of musical illiteracy.
To purposely hobble oneself with the determination that reading music is unnecessary or silly is, in my opinion, a shame.
For a teacher (any teacher) of music, much less piano, to advocate in favor of musical illiteracy is practically criminal malpractice, as far as I'm concerned.
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#1309363 - 11/20/0905:22 PMRe: This child is too musical!
[Re: ProdigalPianist]
eweiss
2000 Post Club Member
Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 2393
Loc: Beautiful San Diego, CA
Originally Posted By: ProdigalPianist
[quote=eweiss] For a teacher (any teacher) of music, much less piano, to advocate in favor of musical illiteracy is practically criminal malpractice, as far as I'm concerned.
I didn't say note reading isn't something a student should learn ... if they want to. I'm saying, it's not necessary in order to play piano or any other instrument.
You learn how to speak a language first - before learning how to read and write it. So as far as I'm concerned, this skill should come before note reading.
Don't force this kid to sight-read, that would do a HUGE disservice to her natural talent of playing by ear. I have a feeling none of the teachers here can even play by ear.
The kid is 9!!! I would keep encouraging her to learn by this method, if it's getting good results why bother with sight-reading.
Challenge her to more progressively harder songs, where she is forced to use her ear. I've seen Marcus Roberts, a blind jazz pianist play Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue brilliantly. It can be done with the hardest music.
Music is all about SOUNDS, not notes on a page. There are so many great blind musicians who can't read a lick of note. Most of the musicians I know who learn only by sight-reading sound forced and robotic. They aren't playing from the soul within.
Get her to improvise and learn some jazz. Don't be like the former teacher of Gabriella Montero, who said improvising is not to be done. It only squelched her creative spirit.
As for jazz theory, I play jazz. Theory is useful to a certain point, to give proper names to sounds. But experimenting, risk-taking, listening, are far more important.
As for proof, check this kid out playing jazz, doing Chick Corea's famous song Spain. He does better at 13 than most college jazz players, let alone some pros. How did he learn? You can bet it wasn't by sight-reading. It was LISTENING.
As for proof, check this kid out playing jazz, doing Chick Corea's famous song Spain. He does better at 13 than most college jazz players, let alone some pros. How did he learn? You can bet it wasn't by sight-reading. It was LISTENING.
#1309381 - 11/20/0905:54 PMRe: This child is too musical!
[Re: landorrano]
eweiss
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Originally Posted By: landorrano
Originally Posted By: Wizard of Oz
As for proof, check this kid out playing jazz, doing Chick Corea's famous song Spain. He does better at 13 than most college jazz players, let alone some pros. How did he learn? You can bet it wasn't by sight-reading. It was LISTENING.
#1309391 - 11/20/0906:20 PMRe: This child is too musical!
[Re: landorrano]
eweiss
2000 Post Club Member
Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 2393
Loc: Beautiful San Diego, CA
Originally Posted By: landorrano
Prove that the kid can't read music.
Whether he can or can't read music is irrelevant to what you said about him being Israeli. If you can't see that, then ... oh well, there's nothing more to discuss.
exactly, what did you mean when you said "Israeli kid"? Explain yourself!
You obviously don't play jazz do you? I can prove he didn't learn that song by reading the music, he has 3 versions up, all improvised and different except for the theme. If he learned it by transcription, he'd be playing exactly the same thing each time.
Nothing indicates that the kid can't read music. It is ridiculous to say or to suggest that he can't, or to suggest that if he can read that it has nothing to do with his playing, or that if he plays, improvises, well, than he sure doesn't read music or study written music, or whatever.
Or to suggest that learning to read will block the creativity of a young musician.
He's from a country that has a great deal of structured music education and produces excellent musicians in many genres. An Israeli musician of this caliber that can't read: it ain't probable.
Jazz is a not a naive art. Its musicians are formed, educated, and know how to read music. Blind musicians don't in anyway invalidate this incontestable fact. The myth of illiterate jazz musicians is nothing but a myth. They were a small minority, and are today even less than that.
Like I said, you obviously don't play jazz. His ability to read music has nothing to do with how he learned that song. If he didn't learn to use his ear, he would never have been able to play that.
I finished the highest level of Royal Conservatory of Music Piano. I could read pretty much anything. When I learned jazz, I dropped it all and had to focus my ear. Now, I play by ear only and don't bother to read anything.
I can tell you that having a good ear is far more useful than being able to read music.
Let me ask you this, how well can you play by ear?
Registered: 04/08/07
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CarolR did not say that the kid who is the topic of this thread does not read at ALL...she said she doesn't "slow down and read the music" which means she's not reading carefully...and from what I'm gathering the music, at this stage, is not so difficult that she can't easily do a combination of sightreading/playing by ear/winging it, which a musical kid can do with fairly easy music.
In fact, it sounds like correct fingerings are a bigger issue than music reading. She could be a very good sight reader. She's just not a careful one.
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Along those lines...why "force" a kid to learn to read (written words) if they speak well?" Oh, well, only to open up a whole world that's possible to those with that skill...why bother?
If a pianist knows how to read music they can discover the sounds of a piece on their own without hearing it the way someone else plays it. They can put their own stamp on something and be creative. From the very beginning (of learning the piano) they can experiment with subtle variations in sound and see what they discover ON THEIR OWN about the piece and what works, what doesn't and what they like.
Yeah I realize that's a way old school suggestion...to hear how something sounds by PLAYING it yourself and not jumping on YouTube or an iPod. But I'm good with that.
There is NOTHING that says a student can't be taught to listen carefully explore sound AND taught to read music. You are setting up a false dichotomy.
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Originally Posted By: Wizard of Oz
Carol is trying to get the kid to sight-read more and learn "proper" fingering. I say hogwash!!
Well, if, as you say, you learned to play classical to a very high standard before discovering jazz, perhaps you have not had the experience of being allowed by poor teachers to play with subpar, awkward fingering choices that hindered the musical line.
Lucky you.
However, I can assure you that those of us who did that, hit a wall beyond which we couldn't improve until our fingering became more naturally and logically pianistic in line with the musical phrase.
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The hillbilly with 4 notches on his gun-belt figures that he is ready to challenge the top-guns.
The staid old logic "have the student present a work at their lesson at no greater than half tempo" is suggested as a key to ... presumably musicality ... what rot!!
Some of the respected members of this Forum carry 10,000 notches ... and have, with respect, learnt not to go off half-cocked.
Let me start first by addressing your inane childishness wherein you call me a hillbilly, which, I'm not (though whether I were or not is really a moot point). Next, I'll address your superiority complex, which seems fairly evident, in that, you feel you need to belittle me, because I have 4 notches on my belt and that as a result the inference is that I should defer to the "top-guns" (notches in one's belt does not an expert make). Now, to the point of my post. I certainly didn't go off half-cocked. My suggestion was not intended as a key to what you call "presumed musicality". The original poster stated that she was having difficulty getting the student to slow down and work out some proper fingering. I think my suggestion of having said student present their work at no greater than half tempo (which allows you not only to incorporate good fingering, but proper phrasing, articulation, dynamics, etc., while giving your brain a chance to absorb all of the input you're feeding it) addresses her problem fairly directly. I would seem that you are the only one here who has gone off half-cocked, since it appears you're not able to actually read and comprehend what it is that you're reading. What area of expertise was it that your 10,000 notches have bestowed upon you again?
#1309557 - 11/21/0912:13 AMRe: This child is too musical!
[Re: currawong]
btb
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Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 3506
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Hi Carol, You will have noticed that the suggestion was made that your 9 year-old student appears to be in the generically gifted 2% ... it is this same bonus which marks the concert pianist ... however, as you are discovering, stage performance puts a demand on accurate sight-reading.
You’ve only had your charge since September ... and it comes as a pleasant surprise to have inherited a potential top gun ... all your other pupils might well progress at a slower pace (largely driven by Mum’s heady ambition ... not to mention the stultifying uphill labour of reading and finding the notes ... AND then looking away to the keyboard).
How you solve the problem of random fingering to an aural memory ... and at the same time gently ingrain a programme of CREATIVE sight-reading is something we’d all like to wish a happy ending ... and hear HOW YOU DID IT.
Like I said, you obviously don't play jazz. His ability to read music has nothing to do with how he learned that song. If he didn't learn to use his ear, he would never have been able to play that.
I finished the highest level of Royal Conservatory of Music Piano. I could read pretty much anything. When I learned jazz, I dropped it all and had to focus my ear. Now, I play by ear only and don't bother to read anything.
I can tell you that having a good ear is far more useful than being able to read music.
Let me ask you this, how well can you play by ear?
I derisively laugh in your general direction sir. You completed the highest level at the Royal Conservatory of Music (which, I'd like to ask is what level? when and with whom were your studies?) yet make a statement such as this...and I quote..."Don't force this kid to sight-read, that would do a HUGE disservice to her natural talent of playing by ear. I have a feeling none of the teachers here can even play by ear." Any individual having attained the highest possible degree offered by RCM would never venture to make such an asinine statement. Thanks for helping to close out my day with a good laugh though.
Is she good at sight reading, but just doesn't pay attention to the fingering?
I'm not experienced as a teacher, but my opinion would be that at this stage, it might be a tough sell for a kid to accept that using the right fingers really matters, when the pieces that she's playing don't really demand it. If you can show her that the pieces sound better with proper fingers (maybe due to better legato or something) then maybe that could motivate her, but if she is playing them perfectly with her random fingers, that's a tough one... The other thing you could do is maybe give her some pieces that demand careful fingering. Maybe if she feels more challenged she'll be motivated to be more diligent.
The other thing to keep in mind is that a lot of music for advanced pianists isn't going to spell out every finger number for the students anyway, so rather than being able to read finger numbers that are printed, perhaps it's also important to be able to deduce the correct fingerings yourself. So, if I were you I would probably not stress out too much about fingering, but just have her play a lot of different music from the score, and have her naturally develop her sense of what fingers work and what don't, and when you see her struggling or see places where she isn't playing legato etc, maybe you can give her tips on how to handle cases like that.
Just my 2 cents, apologies if there are any inaccuracies in my post!
Carol is trying to get the kid to sight-read more and learn "proper" fingering. I say hogwash!!
If the kid can play that well, by just listening to a song once, why bother to change the method. Encourage her to do more of the same.
Fingering is just a means to the end. Do what feels most natural and easy to you. That may be different from the standard or normal way.
Why force the kid to read music if she can hear in her mind how it sounds and relate to it on the piano. You are just making it harder for them.
Wizard dude: If you were sincere about the cutesy "illiterate and proud of it" schtick, you would not also boast about your previous education. Your old teachers got you where you are today, whether you enjoy admitting that or not. All the stuff you learned back then, and which you may claim to have forgotten, is what makes you able to do what you do. Whatever that may be, oh Mr. Jazz Master.
#1309606 - 11/21/0904:55 AMRe: This child is too musical!
[Re: david_a]
keyboardklutz
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The Wiz is right to insist the ear is more important than the eye but obviously both need to be developed. Wieck taught Clara by ear for the first few years but he was teaching her keyboard harmony not Mrs Mills!
#1309627 - 11/21/0907:43 AMRe: This child is too musical!
[Re: keyboardklutz]
Canonie
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Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 1941
Loc: Australia
CarolR She sounds like a great student to teach. A student with good ears coupled with good musical memory makes teaching such a pleasure. Hope you have lots of success tempting her down the path to useful reading.
With a student like this I continue to put time into playing by ear skills. Might as well continue to develop them while they are young, and hopefully that can help with any resistance to the difficulty of reading. I think it would be a bit of a shock for a really good ear-player like this to have to change to reading all their pieces first by themselves, no matter how good for sightreading. With a child as quick as this one you could play an extra piece for them right at the end of the lesson and say, "take that home and learn it" and they probably can I suppose it's a matter of judging how much she is enjoying the new reading skills, and if and when she wants a break from it. It will be good to hear how your student gets on Carol.
For the poster who thought otherwise, I'd be another "classical" type who can play by ear. Just because some players value notation, and try to improve sightreading doesn't mean we don't value by-ear. Actually; playing by ear, hearing a score in your head, sight singing and good music memory are all good for sightreading. It doesn't have to be 2 sides of a tall fence.
But I would agree that getting a child to read every single note they play or sing in music lessons may miss developing some important musicality at a sponge age. But I haven't yet resolved how much of each, or how and when to introduce reading in each case.
_________________________ Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it. Alex Ross.
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This is a timely topic.
Just this afternoon, I was teaching an angel of a student (12 year old girl), who oozes musicality, and soaks up information like a sponge.
She lost her mother, some 18 months ago, and feels that when she plays the grand piano, that her mother played, that she has a connection. Hard to put this into words, and I almost tear up when thinking about it, but she has had several teachers with whom she couldn't get on.
Her father told me that on her first lesson with me, some six months ago, that he knew we would be a good fit. He said that if she didn't like me, she would avoid eye contact. Needless to say, we hit it off from the start, as I allowed her to be herself, and played some things for her, that she probably had never heard before, (some of my own compositions, and improvisations)
Today, we were discussing playing left hand octaves, so I played the left hand of a well known Yann Tiersen piece.
She watched me, then immediately played exactly what I had just demonstrated. I didn't have the music with me, but played the right hand part, as she played the left.
Although she played her part by ear, and memory, she is excited to receive the score next week, so that she can learn it by reading.
I suppose what I am trying to say, is that a combination of both skills, is important, and neither needs to be exclusive.
The Wiz is right to insist the ear is more important than the eye but obviously both need to be developed.
I would never deny that the ear is more important - otherwise what would music be for? It's only insisting that reading has no place that's ridiculous.
I don't teach. That said, I'm not entirely sure why teachers would advocate that the ear is more important. ? It seems to me that this would depend on the goal/purpose of the player. If the player wants to, say, join a band, or go out and play in a cocktail lounge and be able to take requests of songs they've never played before or have no music for, sure obviously the ear is king. However if they want to be performing certain repertoire, or, say, accompany soloists on demand for something like auditions for a musical, then the eye is crucial. In fact the ear, in my mind, could be a hindrance at those times, since sometimes it is easy to assume you "know" where a harmony is going and then you can play innacuracies (or, say you're playing accompaniment for an arrangement of something where the expected harmonies have been changed). And the less predictable the music, the less helpful your ear would be, I would think? Who can say that one skill is the more fundamental?
I derisively laugh in your general direction sir. You completed the highest level at the Royal Conservatory of Music (which, I'd like to ask is what level? when and with whom were your studies?) yet make a statement such as this... Any individual having attained the highest possible degree offered by RCM would never venture to make such an asinine statement. Thanks for helping to close out my day with a good laugh though.
hey Kenny, why exactly are your credentials? Why don't you post some of your piano playing and we'll see how it sounds. Pick a jazz standard and do some improvising for good measure. Or can you not play by ear as well?
Oh, and what's with the Angela Hewitt fetish, you got a thing for her don't you?
Don't go the way of Gyro, back up your claims. I'll be waiting, or the joke's on you. =)
david, classical and jazz are two completely different idioms which requires distinct approaches. Yes, classical gave me the piano technique to play, but it was lacking in many other areas.
I learned jazz on my own. I had to train my ear, learn new rhythms, brush up on jazz theory. The ability to read music well came about last on that list, I had no use for it other than to decipher lead sheets. Even then, I'd rather use my ear to hear the melody.
I ain't no jazz master, but let's hear you do some improvising for fun.
It’s the old conundrum ... aural memory/ sight-reading ... both are critical to sustained advancement .
Here we have a case of a pupil (some 2%) who can mop up a tune in moments and regard this generic skill as a means to duck the laboured sight-reading bit ... a truly musical student is one who can balance the intuitive aural memory with the sight-reading chore.
Just so my quote from yesterday has some clarification, when I stated that, "this", has nothing to do with being musical (before I went on to suggest implementing slow practice) I was referring to the last bit of the quote above that reads, "a truly musical student is one who can balance the intuitive aural memory with the sight-reading chore." What that has to do with being MUSICAL is beyond me. Clearly, some here simply love to see their words in print. Truly musical playing has nothing, whatsoever, to do with aural memory, or sight reading. I know some pianists who can sight practically anything and some that can play most anything after hearing it once and a great number of them do NOT play musically at all. After reading some of the posts here, I truly fear for the students of many who call themselves teachers. I've not ever seen so much drivel in one place in regard to musical education.
I derisively laugh in your general direction sir. You completed the highest level at the Royal Conservatory of Music (which, I'd like to ask is what level? when and with whom were your studies?) yet make a statement such as this... Any individual having attained the highest possible degree offered by RCM would never venture to make such an asinine statement. Thanks for helping to close out my day with a good laugh though.
hey Kenny, why exactly are your credentials? Why don't you post some of your piano playing and we'll see how it sounds. Pick a jazz standard and do some improvising for good measure. Or can you not play by ear as well?
Oh, and what's with the Angela Hewitt fetish, you got a thing for her don't you?
Don't go the way of Gyro, back up your claims. I'll be waiting, or the joke's on you. =)
As I thought would happen the basis of my post would be ignored and the questions I posed would be replied to with questions in turn. Where, might I ask, did I mention Angela Hewitt? She does happen to be a friend, but I never invoked her name at all. No, the joke is not at all on me sir, but rather on you as your reply rather proves with your evasion of all that I asked.
OK, that was interesting to read. Now. Back to the topic at hand. I think the majority of us understand that the ear and the ability to read manuscripts are both important. Thanks for the thoughts and suggestions. I very much agree that at one point, a musician needs to be able to look at a score, and interpret it into music without listening to it first. That isn't to say that that 'ear' doesn't come into play in making it musical. Interpreting the music and making it our own obviously involves using a well developed ear. To me, there is no question that reading is essential. I also don't think there is any way to ruin this student's well developed ear and mind and musicality. There might be some things in this process that aren't exactly fun, or easy, for her, but this is the time for her to learn to read, not when she's older and it's harder.
Excellent point about the fingering. Eventually, one needs to learn how figure out the fingerings oneself. BUT, I think that comes with time - using lots of common fingerings early on, helps. Also, being able to read the music well enough that you can predict what fingers you'll have to use. But I love the idea of having her figure it out, with guidance.
_________________________
Working on: Beethoven: op. 110 Schubert: Sonata D959 Granados: Maiden and the Nightengale Lieberman: Gargoyles
Dude, do you want me to mail a copy of my ARCT certificate to you?!
Like I said, what is your piano background, do you play only classical or jazz as well? I'm betting it's only classical.
As for Angela Hewitt, Google can be a great thing :
Kenny Wood
2008-05-08 11:15:31
Dear Miss Hewitt,
Your souvenir programme came in the mail yesterday and I have to tell you I read through it twice in the space of two hours (just as soon as I could open the envelope!) It's such a beautifully constructed programme and I absolutely love it! Having scoured literally hundreds of google hits (if not more) in the quest to learn more about your background and your musical viewpoints I learned more through your programme than I ever knew before. There is a wealth of biographical information inside that I wasn't aware of and so many photographs I'd never seen as well...I'm really quite fond of the pictures I'd never seen from your childhood and your early career. And then there's one insert that has had me riveted every time I open the book and it's that of the 23rd Goldberg variation from your own score...when I first saw it my eyes got wide and I actually said "Wow" (out loud!) The story about your mother that you've included in the diary pieces section was so precious and moving and I love the sock photo! I really must agree with Keith Shibuya who's programme contribution from Japan states "I cannot be the only one wishing to accompany Angela throughout her world tour..." Thank you so very much for taking the time to put all of this together for all of us! It's much more than just a souvenir and I will cherish it always.
Wishing you sunshine, health and happiness, Always,
Kenny
100's of google hits?! Photos and stories of mom? Sounds like an obsession to me... Why don't you ask her out on a date, I don't know how she takes to stalkers though. Can't hurt to try.
CarolR, I disagree with one needing to learn to read a music score and interpret it first before listening.
The ear is the first, middle, and last point for all music. What's the point of getting someone to play a Chopin Etude without them knowing how it's even supposed to sound?!
That's like asking someone to learn French or German by reading phonetically and not listening to the language. I've heard Asian ESL students trying to learn English by reading first, before speaking. Man, they sound horrible!
Try doing this with your student, pick a simple song and get her to play it once just by reading the score.
Then get a good quality recording of that song, play it to her once and get her to play it. See which sounds better. I'll bet it's after she listened to it.
klutz: Of the music that you played with no recordings, did you hear the song from others first or did you just play it on it's own? It probably took you a hundred times to play to get it to sound decent. It still may not be the way the composer intended.
Do you know the Star Wars music theme? How so, probably cause you watched the movie many times and heard it.
Try this, find the score to Star Wars, ask someone who doesn't know how it sounds, and get them to play it. See how close it resembles the original. You can do this with more obscure music that only you may know.
A piano player has no frame of reference when just looking at a score. It's useless without HEARING IT.
Or find someone who has never heard of Beethoven's Fur Elise and get them to play it. Bet it sounds bad. Now let them hear the song 100 times and then learn it. Now they can internalize it in their mind.
It may not be possible to know how anyone plays from their posts, but it sure is easy to see who the adults are. :-)
I just started taking lessons--just had my third. I play a number of other instruments, some by ear, some by music, and a bit of piano by ear, not particularly well, but I wanted to learn to play classical music, mostly early stuff, Bach and Scarlatti, for instance. I also thought sight-reading would be a cool skill to have, and I wanted to understand things like fingering and technique. There's more than one way to skin a tune, and it seems ludicrous to claim otherwise.
Where, might I ask, did I mention Angela Hewitt? She does happen to be a friend, but I never invoked her name at all.
Kenny Wood, now is Angela a "friend" in the personal sense? Like you could call her up and talk or go out for coffee, or did she respond to your e-mail and now you consider her a good pal.
A white lie is still a lie. Game's getting weak my "friend".
#1309811 - 11/21/0901:50 PMRe: This child is too musical!
[Re: Wizard of Oz]
Pogorelich.
3000 Post Club Member
Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 3663
Originally Posted By: Wizard of Oz
Dude, do you want me to mail a copy of my ARCT certificate to you?!
Like I said, what is your piano background, do you play only classical or jazz as well? I'm betting it's only classical.
As for Angela Hewitt, Google can be a great thing :
Kenny Wood
2008-05-08 11:15:31
Dear Miss Hewitt,
Your souvenir programme came in the mail yesterday and I have to tell you I read through it twice in the space of two hours (just as soon as I could open the envelope!) It's such a beautifully constructed programme and I absolutely love it! Having scoured literally hundreds of google hits (if not more) in the quest to learn more about your background and your musical viewpoints I learned more through your programme than I ever knew before. There is a wealth of biographical information inside that I wasn't aware of and so many photographs I'd never seen as well...I'm really quite fond of the pictures I'd never seen from your childhood and your early career. And then there's one insert that has had me riveted every time I open the book and it's that of the 23rd Goldberg variation from your own score...when I first saw it my eyes got wide and I actually said "Wow" (out loud!) The story about your mother that you've included in the diary pieces section was so precious and moving and I love the sock photo! I really must agree with Keith Shibuya who's programme contribution from Japan states "I cannot be the only one wishing to accompany Angela throughout her world tour..." Thank you so very much for taking the time to put all of this together for all of us! It's much more than just a souvenir and I will cherish it always.
Wishing you sunshine, health and happiness, Always,
Kenny
100's of google hits?! Photos and stories of mom? Sounds like an obsession to me... Why don't you ask her out on a date, I don't know how she takes to stalkers though. Can't hurt to try.
First of all, any idiot can get ARCT if they try hard enough. It doesn't mean you're a genius... you don't even have to be a good musician to get it.
Second of all, grow up.
_________________________ 'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'
Where, might I ask, did I mention Angela Hewitt? She does happen to be a friend, but I never invoked her name at all.
Kenny Wood, now is Angela a "friend" in the personal sense? Like you could call her up and talk or go out for coffee, or did she respond to your e-mail and now you consider her a good pal.
A white lie is still a lie. Game's getting weak my "friend".
Why are you stalking someone and googling their personal life? That's far more scary (and offensive) than someone telling a little white lie on a forum.
#1309820 - 11/21/0902:04 PMRe: This child is too musical!
[Re: Wizard of Oz]
Pogorelich.
3000 Post Club Member
Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 3663
Originally Posted By: Wizard of Oz
A piano player has no frame of reference when just looking at a score. It's useless without HEARING IT.
Oh really... HAHAHAHAHA... I wonder then how the great artists played back when they weren't listening to recordings, especially to learn a new piece, and I wonder what they did when premiering new works.. such as works of Rachmaninoff. Jeez, they must've been horrible. Yeah, pfft, Horowitz. Or Richter.. yuck.
_________________________ 'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'
Why are you stalking someone and googling their personal life? That's far more scary (and offensive) than someone telling a little white lie on a forum.
Stalking? I just did a quick search and found some interesting stuff. At least I didn't google someone 100 times "literally", as Kenny Wood says he did... now THAT's stalking!!!
Where, might I ask, did I mention Angela Hewitt? She does happen to be a friend, but I never invoked her name at all.
Kenny Wood, now is Angela a "friend" in the personal sense? Like you could call her up and talk or go out for coffee, or did she respond to your e-mail and now you consider her a good pal.
A white lie is still a lie. Game's getting weak my "friend".
Why are you stalking someone and googling their personal life? That's far more scary (and offensive) than someone telling a little white lie on a forum.
Thank you! For starters it's not a white lie nor a lie in any sense of the word. I have no need to prove I'm friends with her (and surely not to the likes of this clown), or anyone else, nor will I drag her name into this.
hey Kenny, if Angela really is your friend I'd be worried about her. Who writes that kind of stuff to a "real" friend?! You sound more like an obsessed fan, asking to go on tour with her!!
As for your original claims, let's get back to the topic at hand. Explain to me why sight-reading is more important than playing by ear.
I'm still waiting to hear you play a jazz standard... pick one, it can't be that hard.
hey Kenny, if Angela really is your friend I'd be worried about her. Who writes that kind of stuff to a "real" friend?! You sound more like an obsessed fan, asking to go on tour with her!!
As for your original claims, let's get back to the topic at hand. Explain to me why sight-reading is more important than playing by ear.
I'm still waiting to hear you play a jazz standard... pick one, it can't be that hard.
You're a complete moron. I think we ALL should be more worried about idiots like you after what I found in my inbox from you which was....so everyone knows......a note from Wizard with my name, address and phone number and a note asking for a piano lesson. Gee, who's the stalker??? I'm removing myself from this site altogether, since I've seen nothing here but drivel and b.s. from the likes of this clown and a few others.
Hahahaha, man you crack me up!!! Hey, you yourself had to post your name, address and phone # online for people to read it. I just happen to find it.
You brought this upon yourself, attacking and questioning my musical background and then not being able to back up a word you said.
Sir, I'll be laughing at your clown face as I close the door. That post on Angela Hewitt was hilarious!! Such devotion. If you need her number, don't be afraid to ask! So, can I still have that piano lesson?
#1309910 - 11/21/0904:39 PMRe: This child is too musical!
[Re: Wizard of Oz]
currawong
5000 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5051
Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: Wizard of Oz
A piano player has no frame of reference when just looking at a score. It's useless without HEARING IT.
You seem to think that competent musicians can't just look at a score and hear it in their heads. I certainly can, but perhaps you can't and that's where your confusion is coming from.
I never said that, I can read a score and hum the melody, but I much prefer to actually hear the music. You get more feedback than notes on a page, like the texture, mood, emotion, phrasing.
Jazz musicians transcribe all the time, where they listen to a song and write it down. That's just the reverse process.
#1309933 - 11/21/0905:16 PMRe: This child is too musical!
[Re: Wizard of Oz]
currawong
5000 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5051
Loc: Down Under
Depends what you mean by "actually hear", doesn't it. A trained musician may hear more in his/her head reading from a score than another person might on listening to a live performance.
But regardless of that, I wonder why you feel the need to turn this thread into a jazz vs classical sort of rant, an ear vs reading rant. Most (but not all!) the teachers posting on this board teach classical piano, for which reading music is essential, sooner or later. But to assume that therefore they don't play by ear, that they don't teach playing by ear, that they can't improvise ... etc etc ... is just silly. How would you know what we can do?
Yes guys I may have gone too far. When some stranger attacks my musical credentials and experience, and "laughs in my direction" and calls my remarks "asinine", then I will take the offensive. I'm sure many of you would as well.
Consider the matter with Kennywood closed. We can keep talking about playing by ear vs reading music.
I believe that there exists an institute for teaching to haighly gifted children, attached to the Tchaikovsky Conservatory at Moscow.
It is likely that there are professors who have worked there present today in the US. You may be able to track someone down, or contact the conservatory directly by email, to discuss the case of your student.
Perhaps there exists a similar school in the US.
The point is that there are people with a significant experience with children who show, or seem to show, exceptional capacities for learning music. You needn't be limited to the well-meaning conjectures on the forum.
#1309976 - 11/21/0906:30 PMRe: This child is too musical!
[Re: CarolR]
Canonie
1000 Post Club Member
Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 1941
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: CarolR
I think the majority of us understand that the ear and the ability to read manuscripts are both important. Thanks for the thoughts and suggestions.
I very much agree that at one point, a musician needs to be able to look at a score, and interpret it into music without listening to it first. That isn't to say that that 'ear' doesn't come into play in making it musical. Interpreting the music and making it our own obviously involves using a well developed ear. To me, there is no question that reading is essential. I also don't think there is any way to ruin this student's well developed ear and mind and musicality.
Thanks for continuing on topic Carol (and Rob with the flag too). Of course you're right that reading can't ruin a student's ear and musicality, in fact reading ends up enhancing the aural imagination skills. As others have refered to, the combination of an excellent ear and excellent reading allows someone to hear a score in their head by looking at it, and also to transcribe a piece directly from the sound (without having to peck at a keyboard at all). Of course you dont have to have these skills to be a good musician, but it's interesting to realise that Carol's and rob's students mentioned are becoming that sort of musician. I would find that pretty exciting, and it's what I most try to develop in my own teaching.
Quote:
There might be some things in this process that aren't exactly fun, or easy, for her, but this is the time for her to learn to read, not when she's older and it's harder.
I'm interested this part. What kind of resistance to reading do teachers find, and what kind of plans and books do you use, how do you get them excited and inspired to read? And do you continue to specifically put time into ear development during the new push towards reading?
Just another thought, I find the Piano Adventures theory books excellent in the way that they combine theory ear and sight reading development so well. Great for transfer students who arrive frustrated that they can't read at all, and eager to fill this gap. Are there any other series like this?
PS good nudge Ken.
_________________________ Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it. Alex Ross.
#1309978 - 11/21/0906:32 PMRe: This child is too musical!
[Re: Canonie]
Canonie
1000 Post Club Member
Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 1941
Loc: Australia
And what is the Spinning Song mentioned in the OP? I don't know it. thanx in advance.
_________________________ Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it. Alex Ross.
Yes guys I may have gone too far. When some stranger attacks my musical credentials and experience, and "laughs in my direction" and calls my remarks "asinine", then I will take the offensive. I'm sure many of you would as well.
Consider the matter with Kennywood closed. We can keep talking about playing by ear vs reading music.
Maybe others would have been offended by someone questioning their credentials and experience (which I still do, since many of your remarks have, indeed, in my opinion been asinine), but the difference between yourself and others is that others seem to comprehend the idea of opinion and one's right to it (whether they like it or not). You certainly have the right of rebuttal and by all means take the offensive, but when you cross the line and begin to incorporate invasive behavior as part of your offensive then you no longer have that right. You were completely out of line and any site/forum, etc. that you are part of I will certainly not associate myself with as I will not allow myself to be treated in this manner. Thank you to those who assisted me after they'd witnessed the childish behavior exhibited here by he whom I quote above.
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She'll grab something like Burgmueller Op. 100 and just read right through the whole book. OK, she'll say, what should we do next?
Oh, well, only to open up a whole world that's possible to those with that skill...why bother? 
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