I have a newish Perzina 122 upright. I had it tuned once after delivery and it was on its way out of tune again by 6 months so I've just had it tuned again. the tech who did the work strongly suggested that I get a damp chaser.

I've been considering this anyway but one thing he said struck me as exaggerated. He claimed that he hasn't tuned his own piano in 3 years and it's still in tune due to the damp chaser - is this possible?

lmao...

3 years? I personally don't think it's possible.

Get another tech.

But for the sake of conversation, how much difference would it make? My house is a drafty old thing: dry in the winter (though I have a humidifier in the room with the piano lives) and humid in the summer ( no air-conditioning).

3 years is not out of the question if the piano was in a very controlled environment and not rigorously played. I think the advice to get a new tech is a little harsh. I think the point here is that (when properly maintained) a dampp chaser can do a lot to improve tuning stability on a piano. I don't think a piano *needs* a dampp chaser. Kind of like a car doesn't need cruise control or a stereo:)

Quite a rash statement.

It isn't all that uncommon for a piano to hold tune for several years if the environment is very stable.

Not very common, but not that rare.

jnod,

No A.C. hmmm...I've been in Toronto during the summer. It can get sticky.
You could get a room de-humidifier. It is effective in removing excessive moisture from the air but it can be noisy and the bucket that collects the water must be emptied each time it fills. Unless, of course, the unit is connected to a drain via a hose for example.

Does your tech happen to sell/install dampp-chasers?

Even if his 3 year claim is "truthful", I don't think it's reasonable for you to assume that you will reap similar rewards.

fingers

The technician may be deaf!

Ok tuners, let's not hold back: how often do you tune your own piano? I'll go first. I last tuned my piano (a little Winter upright) 2+ years ago. It's not that it's held its tune for that period (it most assuredly has not). I just don't feel like tuning when I get home. Just sayin.

Tuning stability is just one benefit of a Piano Life Saver system. I would say a bigger benefit is protecting the wood and glue joints from damage caused by humidity cycles over time. Do your kitchen chairs have loose cross-braces between the legs? It's probably because winter dryness shrinks the wood so much that the glue joints break.

The more stable the tuning, the less the pins have to be twisted to make adjustments, and so the less wear on the pinblock. Most people keep their pianos 20 years or more, so it's an investment for the long term (like keeping a car in a garage instead of outside in the sun and snow).

--Cy--

P.S. I tune my piano every six months or so. I'm trying a variety of historic temperaments. I like the Bach-Lehman; it's a mild one (see http://www.larips.com).

Disclaimer: I sell and install Piano Life Saver systems. But I have them on all of my family's pianos, too.

I hope y'all don't mind if I ask a side-question -- a general question about Damp Chaser:

Can it do any HARM?

That's what has kept me from getting it -- the fear of harm. It just strikes me that putting basically a tub of water right up near the piano might not be too safe.

I assume I'm being an idiot but just wondering.

Mark,

This is a very good question, and something I have been commenting on for a very long time.

Depending on where you live, there are going to be fears about either too humid, or too dry, a climate.

There is a much greater chance from what I have seen of the climate control system introducing too much dryness to the piano. They have dried out many a piano over the years, especially since many 'technicians' did not install the thermostatic control (humidistat).

As far as introducing moisture, I don't think it would be nearly as much of a problem for the piano as too much dryness.

THANK YOU for the great post.

I just learned something -- and I imagine many people might have had no idea about that.
It seems very ironic that the main danger might be dryness.

One more thought:

In case a piano owner is concerned, it should be noted that too much humidity is much more easily detected than too much dryness.

Excessive humidity will cause NOTICEABLE problems such as sluggish keys and action, corrosion, etc.

On the other hand, dryness just dries, and dries, and dries... until CRACK! And it's too late to do anything about it.

Be most concerned about too much dryness. Humidity (moisture) can be a good thing! And this is from someone who lives in Florida.

Thanks again......The thing I'm mainly worried about is something a bit different: A whole bunch of water sloshing against the piano. Or something of that sort.
i.e. Not merely "too much humidity," but A HUGE AMOUNT too much moisture, because of some malfunction.

Moisture tends to be 'absorbed as needed'.

That's quite a different story than a heating rod, uncontrolled, baking your piano!

I believe that the OP has a point ... what chance is there of this Dampp Chaser system going wrong and either baking the piano dry or making it too humid?
I have had fitted a Dampp Chaser system to my upright.... and was surprized that the heater rod was on much of the time when the room humidity was in the low 40's % RH. However I have a humidity sensor with a remote readout that I fitted in the piano (on the opposite side of the water reservoir) and found that inside the piano the RH was between 54 and 57%... so the wood itself is fairly humid and the Dampp Chaser system is gently drying it out... which is fine..
Given this I am happy that I have this option to monitor the humidity inside the piano - and recommend other paranoid individuals to do the same. It should be noted that the heater bar is not so powerful that it will cook your piano overnight.
The Dampp Chaser warrantee covers the malfunction of the DC system - and will cover the cost of a new system - but clearly states that it does not cover any damage to the piano caused by the malfunctioning system.
In my case - I want to stop large swings in the humidity so that pressure ridges on the soundboard do not build up. The secondary aspect of less frequent tunings is a side effect that I am happy with - but in reality I enjoy the visit of the piano tuner.
One does not have a bucket of water sloshing around in the piano ... just a small reservoir that sits in a corner inside the piano... at least this is the case for an upright.

all very interesting - thanks everyone (you too side-poster). I hadn't considered the possibility that the thing could actually hurt the piano though I'm, of course, always glad to have something new to worry about.

The truth is that my house does have pretty significant swings in humidity - Toronto does range from volcanically hot and humid to dry and frozen solid. Maybe I should just move eh?

I have a 102 year old Everett upright with a Dampp Chaser and my piano technician is always impressed with how little he needs to do in adjustments every tuning session.

I'm a student at Frederick Community College. Every grand piano they own has a damp chaser installed, eccept for the Bosendorfwe Inperial, which has 2! Several of the uprights do also.

My piano does as well (no, not the Clavinova).

I'm very pleased with it.

Jnod:

1st, the new systems can be ordered with the 'smart' feature that turn of as a fail-safe if certain events happen.

In Toronto they are of great benefit, especially in an older house. 1 example, a 26 year old Young Chang grand in an old house in Forest Hill fitted with a Pianocorder. This piano had a d-c installed 25 years ago and in the 1st 7 years of its life was tuned frequently and all recommended maintenance was performed. I recently appraised it, and it had not been tuned for about 8 years. It was on pitch and the tuning was quite good, no unisons out and no octaves out more than a cent or 2, tight tuning pins, good bridges, action good and soundboard with no pressure ridges or cracks. I would strongly recommend one for your situation. There are always those who can come up with catastrophic 'what if' scenarios. Howver, I have never heard these scenarios from any veteran technican who service these units. You see, your ceiling could fall down or your floor could collapse, or perhaps an airpane will crash in your house and damage your piano. Get the unit from an experienced installer. It will save you money and your playing experience will be enhanced too.

Steve

A D-C doesn't do harm, if it's installed by a piano technician, and it's not older than, say, 30 years (they've been around for 60 years). There's a lot more risk from letting your piano dry out every winter. Did you notice I have them on my own pianos?

My mother used to put a jelly jar of water in the bottom of our upright, which would evaporate in a few days and have little effect (with most D-C systems on the east coast, you use up about three gallons of water a month). And sometimes she'd leave a light bulb on inside the cabinet, a steady heat source without any control unit.

Check out their website and make up your own mind.

--Cy--

Have 2 pianos... a grand with a dampp chaser and an console without. The grand holds its tuning pretty well but I still get it done at least twice a year. Usually more often because I'll have it done for any recording sessions where I have my tuner present who even tweaks it on breaks.

Also have an April-Air on the furnace which, if you have forced air heat, is another thing to consider. If only for your general health as well as that of your furniture and kitchen cabinets. I don't think an April-Air is sufficient but it helps smooth out drastic fluctuations which helps my console hold its tune. I also had the opportunity during a rebuild a few years ago to send my console's replacement strings to a cryogenics lab... a treatment which also tends to help strings hold their tuning in a different way.

I agree with what has been said about how excessive dryness can damage wood. You definitely shouldn't skimp on the control circuitry and by all means, refill with water when it runs out. Typically every 2 weeks. I consider your lack of central air a plus because high humidity in the summer is really only an issue if you get condensation. Which may lead to string and pin corrosion. The dampp chaser can easily control high humidity anyway. But there is another thing to consider about the dampp chaser installation. Make sure that the water tanks aren't too close to the strings or frame or you might get water-tank condensation on them. Which is the reason I didn't dampp chase my console... there just wasn't enough room inside to mount the tanks much more than an inch from the strings and I don't want them mounted outside.

Howard

I swear by my DC on my last two pianos. The new one does indeed have an indicator that shuts it off if no water is wicking up through the humidifying pads. This is a safety feature against over-drying. There is a little "hat" thing that catches any condensation so it wouldn't happen on the sound board.

I would have strong doubts about any piano claimed to be in tune after three years or any tuner who made the claim...but stranger things have happened. And there is a wide variation on what people consider "acceptable".

Many words have been written on this forum over the years on this topic and I will once again relate our experience.

We live in a very dry winter environment and the recommendation of our technician was to look first to whole-house humidification system, rather than a D-C (which he sells and installs). His reasons were: with a grand piano this provides humidity control to the action stack in a way that D-C cannot, you are providing protection to everything in your house and they require less TLC than a D-C, for example when you are on holidays. Now with this recommendation comes a lot of caveats. Your HVAC system needs to support always-on humidification (and there are a number of different types) - in our case constant air circulation over a waterfall type humidifier. You also need humidity control. We have an relative-humidity controlled air-to-air heat exchanger, which in combination with air-conditioning in the summer provides ample high-humidity prevention.

None of this is to say a D-C isn't a good choice as either primary or supplemental environmental control for your piano. It is just worth evaluating if the money spent on a D-C might not be better spent on whole-house control if that option is available.

That's another way to put it!

Steve, I don't think it's rash considering the premises and the exaggeration.

Even if a piano is in a 100% controlled environment, I think it's still not possible for a piano to hold the EXACT same tune for 3 years (i am talking exact frequency here). There's always deviation no matter what.

This does bring up an interesting question. What is considered "in tune" ?

Thanks everyone for a really interesting thread. I live in Chicago which has a climate similar to Toronto. My grand came with a Damp Chaser already installed. Interestingly, my technician dislikes them and favors room humidification instad. This is what I've ended up doing: in the winter I have two room sized humidifiers and the Damp chaser turned on. The Damp Chaser is serviced by a different technician who just attends to it. In the summer I turn them all off, in line with the observations that summertime humdity is probably less dangerous. I've been happy with tuning stability, and I'm hoping the evils of dryness will be avoided!

Best

Thank you! I appreciate that very much.
It's part of what I was wondering about, although I wasn't able to articulate it at all -- the idea that the DampChaser doesn't give uniform humidification to the piano.

Granted, few people have a real option for whole-house humidification, and it's not what I have; in the absence of DC, I'm just using regular store-bought humidifiers, and I realize the DC is probably far superior to what I have.

But I'm not sure. And, the nature of the DC is such that I would worry MORE about uneven humidification, because of the proximity of the unit to the piano, than with plain humidifiers, which are at least some distance from the piano.

I aim for the humidifiers to provide sort of quasi "whole-house" humidification in the vicinity of the piano; this at least gives a humidification that is fairly uniform throughout the piano.

Great point. Really.

Not only do different people have differing sensitivities about it, but probably each person has differing sensitivities depending on the moment.
I get much more persnickety in the immediate period before a performance. And if we have to make an audition tape (or whatever), we're probably even more persnickety.

Wow! You have "it all"!

I'd guess that's 'fairly unique.'