Questions on piano construction:

1. If two pianos have the same materials except for a different sound board material or shape (same size) can that make a big difference in tonal quality?

2. Yamaha says that it’s pianos sound may be bright but all it takes is to pin prick the felt to make it warmer. Basically it is a fallacy to attribute the bright sound to it’s building method and materials.

3. Inexpensive pianos may <20 hours for voicing; expensive ones 80+. What exactly gets done once the piano is put together and how does this affect the tonal characteristics?

4. As a piano ages even with limited use are the strings impacted? I would suspect that if the humidity is too high there could be damage but can just the fact that the strings have been tensioned, for say 30 years, impact the sound in a great way. Is chance of breakage greater?

Thanks ahead of time. My daughter and are ready for a real piano and we want to make the correct decision. The PianoWorld web site has been a wonderful resource over these last two years.

1. Emphatically yes. Imagine the same thought experiment with tires: same size, different shape, different material tires handle very differently. Or even just with guitar strings: do nylon strings sound different from steel?

2. I'd like to know where Yamaha says this.

3. I don't think this generalization is true.

4. Yes, age affects materials; older strings are more likely to break. Condition is more important than age; rust indicates strings may break. Felt deteriorates over time, and wear accelerates that deterioration.

It sounds like you're worried over how to judge the sound of a piano, and you're trying to predict that by researching manufacturing methods; not a reliable method. You should just be able to judge the voicing by playing the piano. Play the same piece on every piano you examine. If you have trouble telling the difference between pianos, consider renting for a while until you get more familiar with them.

And read "The Piano Book" for lots more info on how to evaluate a piano.

--Cy--

Thanks Cy.

Here is the link to the yamaha bright issue:

http://www.piano-advice.org.uk/new%20yamaha%20sound.htm

"2. Yamaha says that it’s pianos sound may be bright but all it takes is to pin prick the felt to make it warmer. Basically it is a fallacy to attribute the bright sound to it’s building method and materials."

I was wrong saying that Yamaha said this . It's Chris Venables Piano that says this. I believe he is on this board. Maybe I misunderstood. Chris obviously has years of experience.

My basic problem is that I am comparing two pianos made in the same factory under two different names with almost identical parts except for the soundboard and maybe a few more hours of setup and I distinctly hear a difference (a much more pleasing balanced, focused tone). The one with the more pleasing tone is slightly more expensive.

I am just wondering if I bought the cheaper one can I get a tuner to "please make it sound like that other one." Maybe it's just the unison tuning on the other one.

1) There are a lot of factors of design and material that effect the tone we hear. Given your stated circumstances, it won't be the difference in sound board material but rather HOW it was shaped and installed.

2) Regardless of who said it. In the simple form you asked the question, the simple answer is Yes. Simple needling will soften the tone of any piano.

A good tuning along with hammer to string prep will also "focus" the sound. This can be interpreted as softening by many.

3) I disagree here with this premise. Human nature .. the notion of buying a cheaper piano generally comes with the desire to also limit preparation to again control cost.

The notion of buying an expensive piano comes with the desire to have an inspirational piano. People who have decided to go that route are also likely to spend more on prep.

Construction effects tone
Execution of that construction effects tone ... Greatly
Execution of construction can manipulate tonal results within a specific design and material probably more that most realize.

4) Yes.

Can you have what you want in the cheaper piano?
That depends on the piano and what you want.
The only way to answer that effectively is to hear both pianos and discuss with you your desired results.

May I ask, what are the two pianos you are considering and comparing?

It may be easier to answer that question independently.

Paddler: are you comparing the UK built Kemble with the new Japanese U1 as per your other topic?

If so, and as you like the Kemble anyway, I would ask the dealer to set up 2 U1's side by side, choose the one you prefer and then have the dealer do some further voicing to get it as close to perfection (no piano's perfect) as he can. As long as you say you're going to buy either the Kemble or one of the 2 U1's from him then I'm sure he'd be happy to oblige.

The Kemble and all UK built Yamahas have a German soundboard whereas the Japanese U1 has a Sitka spruce board. the actions are the same (Yamaha). Unsure as to whether the Kemble has 2 tone collectors (2 huge coach screws going from the iron frame through the soundboard into the centre back posts). The U1 definitely has and is a small plus point. As the soundboards use virtually the same wood, but grown in a different country, engineered to the same tolerances the tone differences are small. More tonal change (brilliance, mellowness) can be made by shaping and voicing the hammers on a Yamaha than by any other technique.

I think you will be surprised just how different 2 identical pianos can be made to sound.

The pin pricking of hammers is part of the voicing process. It's also something that should only be done by a qualified professional. It may also be what the real difference is between these two pianos. Which brings me to my advice, the voicing process can take many hours. The amount of time and the results can only be estimated ahead of time. If you've found a piano you can afford that plays and sounds good then pay the few hundred extra to know you're getting a piano you'll enjoy. The results of investing money in additional prep and voicing of the lesser instrument are unpredictable. You would be better served to get the better instrument (to your ears) and invest in it.

Thank you all very much. I think I have all the information I need.

Yes, it is the Kemble Quantum II vs. a U1. The dealer is not pushing the Kemble or preassuring me in anyway. Chris I did see your response to the C2 (C3?) vs. grand Kemble comparison. Basically don't buy the Kemble.

I am off today to look at 2 U3's and one UX all of 1970's vintage from a tuner/restored that will warranty the piano's. That was the point of whether it made sense sense to buy a 30 year piano and expect it to sound new, of course as long as it was maintained well and the action was in good condition.

I replace my guitar strings every few months. Strings in a piano seem similar in nature, i.e., steel under a lot of tension. But of course the guitar strings pick up lot's of dirt and sweat from the hands which is a major reason they are replaced so frequently.

It's a very expensive proposition so I am doing my due diligence.

Chris,

I would suggest that the difference between Sitka and German, depends on what German material one is discussing.

Steingraeber Pianos have German sound boards.
Quite an endorsement !

How do you feel the nose bolts contribute to the tone a pianist experiences?

Back to my general response;

Decreasing the cost of materials is only one aspect of reducing the price the consumer pays.

There must also be a reduction in Manufacturing costs.
Independent of the labor costs related to WHERE the piano is produced and are directly related to simplifying the manufacturing process.

So, can prep overcome a cheaper manufacturing process?
Also, many technicians have experience with cheaper felt and the voicing /noise difficulties that creates ...

Larry,

For the last 18 months the UK built Yamaha and Kembles (same product different name) have had Strunz Bavarian spruce boards. Prior to that they used XXX Bavarian spruce soundboards. (I think that's when the new marketing men came on the scene)

Regarding the tone collectors on the U1, they add slightly more depth to the sound and increase overall structural strength and tuning stability.

Can prep overcome a cheaper manufacturing process? Depends what you mean by 'cheaper.' More efficient and as good, or cheap and inferior? Good prepping of cheap mass produced pianos can only be as good as the materials in the piano. As this topic relates to the U1, I find the felt is excellent and easy to work with, the results are well worth additional time.

Upgrade to the piano or Downgrade?

Paddler,
One often hears about the effects voicing can have on hammers -- but both sides of the debate tend to overstate their points, which each have some validity to them. But the truth is somewhere in the middle.
Tone is more than just a place along the bright/mellow spectrum. So, don't count on voicing to the 'that sound' you love. There is little that is more frustrating than buying a piano with the expectation that you can get 'that sound' you heard on another instrument, and then to be unable to get it. You buy a piano to produce sound, after all. Make sure it produces the sound you love.
It sounds like the Japanese U1 and the Kemble are not at all the same piano. Different kinds of spruce do have different acoustic properties. Also, the article linked from a recent thread on Kemble suggests that the Kembles have different hammers. Hammers have a large influence on sound.
Finally, voicing a hard hammer is something that must be repeated, since hammers harden with playing and will tend to revert to a certain character the hammer has. If you get a Yamaha that's been heavily needled and sounds better to your ears, keep in mind that you might have to have it voiced sooner than you would another piano.

You probably saw the article, but here is the link in case you didn't:

http://www.mi-pro.co.uk/news/30554/Brian-Kemble-addresses-dealers

OK. To complicate matters I just came back from auditioning 2 U3's from 1977 and 1979 and a UX from 1980 at a piano restorer/tuner shop. These pianos have hardly been played.

What a sound from the UX! I closed my eyes and I thought there was a grand piano in front of me. Sound was very complex, not too dark not too light, deep base, overtones galore. The other two were different in sound, a bit brighter, etc. but very good also. I spend about an hour on them.

So for $4,800 I can have the UX.

I did read that the UX bracing was an experiment that Yamaha gave up on so not sure if it should influence my decision because the piano sounded magnificent. I will open a new thread on the UX. I told them I would decide tomorrow.

My general advice is to buy the piano you like, rather than trying to save money and hope that the voicing, touch, or anything else can be adjusted sometime in the future (at whose expense?) to what you like.

--Cy--