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#1309045 - 11/20/09 08:11 AM Re: How long does it take......... [Re: pianoloverus]
RogerW Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 430
I met Ian Pace last summer and asked him how long it takes him to learn the diabolically difficult pieces he often performs. He told me that he received the sheets for Michael Finnisy's English country tunes about three weeks before he first performed the piece. For those who don't know the piece, it's about 50 minutes long and the score is about 250 pages. Here's a little sample:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wItuWEgs9Sc
(If you wish to follow the score, the music on the page starts around 0:30 in the video)

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#1309100 - 11/20/09 10:15 AM Re: How long does it take......... [Re: RogerW]
timmyab Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/15/08
Posts: 302
Loc: Bristol, UK
I'm always fascinated by tales of piano heroics.A couple that come to mind are:
Liszt sight reading Grieg's piano concerto in front of the composer to a very high standard and apparently passing comments as he went.
John Ogdon standing in for someone at the last minute and sight reading Brahms 2nd piano concerto.
Arthur Rubinstein learning Frank's Symphonic Variations on a train on the way to a concert in Spain and practising passages without the aid of a piano.

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#1309102 - 11/20/09 10:22 AM Re: How long does it take......... [Re: RonaldSteinway]
kennywood Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/14/09
Posts: 43
The story about a Juilliard,and Moscow Conservatory, graduate sight reading the Pathetique, and taking 15 years to master a Chopin etude addresses the issue in a nutshell, whether the poster realized it or not. Many advanced pianists can sight read practically anything. The notes aren't the difficult part. I'm sure that pianist had the etudes' notes under his fingers for many years, but his point was that it took an extraordinary amount of time to MASTER (key word) the work, (i.e. going beyond the notes). I doubt that pianist would claim that he could MASTER "Liebestraum", in a day.

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#1309119 - 11/20/09 10:50 AM Re: How long does it take......... [Re: kevinb]
Kreisler Online   confused

Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 12156
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Originally Posted By: kevinb
My gut feeling is that what going on inside the head of a person who does that is nothing at all like the process that an ordinary person would follow. The square-root man isn't just doing the same calculation that I would do, but faster -- he is doing something entirely different.


Yes! I had dinner with a pianist who was quite capable of sight-reading pretty much anything. (He had worked for years as an opera coach in Europe and can read pretty much anything.)

I asked him how he learned to sight-read, and he said:

"Well, I had to sit down and the first dozen or so operas I played, but after you've learned 20 opears, the next 50 aren't so bad."

Then he thought for a second and added:

"And it takes a certain kind of concentration."
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

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#1309126 - 11/20/09 10:58 AM Re: How long does it take......... [Re: kennywood]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 14226
Originally Posted By: kennywood
The story about a Juilliard,and Moscow Conservatory, graduate sight reading the Pathetique, and taking 15 years to master a Chopin etude addresses the issue in a nutshell, whether the poster realized it or not. Many advanced pianists can sight read practically anything. The notes aren't the difficult part. I'm sure that pianist had the etudes' notes under his fingers for many years, but his point was that it took an extraordinary amount of time to MASTER (key word) the work, (i.e. going beyond the notes). I doubt that pianist would claim that he could MASTER "Liebestraum", in a day.


Yes, but in this case the Chopin Etude was one of the most difficult technically of the set, so just from a technical standpoint it could take a very long time. I think Liebestraum is much easier. I don't think many concert pianists would purposely choose to perform Liebestraum after only a day's practice, but I do think many could learn it very close to 100% technically and at least "good" from a musical standpoint in a day.

I think not only do good concert pianists have sightreading and technical abilities far greater than most, but their interpretive/musical are also much greater than most.


Edited by pianoloverus (11/20/09 11:00 AM)

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#1309145 - 11/20/09 11:30 AM Re: How long does it take......... [Re: pianoloverus]
kennywood Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/14/09
Posts: 43
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: kennywood
The story about a Juilliard,and Moscow Conservatory, graduate sight reading the Pathetique, and taking 15 years to master a Chopin etude addresses the issue in a nutshell, whether the poster realized it or not. Many advanced pianists can sight read practically anything. The notes aren't the difficult part. I'm sure that pianist had the etudes' notes under his fingers for many years, but his point was that it took an extraordinary amount of time to MASTER (key word) the work, (i.e. going beyond the notes). I doubt that pianist would claim that he could MASTER "Liebestraum", in a day.


Yes, but in this case the Chopin Etude was one of the most difficult technically of the set, so just from a technical standpoint it could take a very long time. I think Liebestraum is much easier. I don't think many concert pianists would purposely choose to perform Liebestraum after only a day's practice, but I do think many could learn it very close to 100% technically and at least "good" from a musical standpoint in a day.

I think not only do good concert pianists have sightreading and technical abilities far greater than most, but their interpretive/musical are also much greater than most.


This pianist could play all of Op. 10 (I assume beyond just playing the notes on the page) and needed 15 years to master the technical difficulties of No. 2? I realize everyone's level of technical prowess varies, but, if that's the case I certainly raise my brow. Of course, Liebestraum, TECHNICALLY, is easier. That's just my point...it's not just about the notes! Music is an art. As a result the way you view it changes day to day...it's a continual learning experience (and if it's not then you should quit). One might feel they can "whip up" Liebestraume, in a day and it's programme worthy, but how much substance will it have? I've heard it a million times, so if it doesn't speak to me (and I think a person would be an extraordinary individual to hear and be able to relate all the composer has to say with any work in a day), then what's the point?

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#1309167 - 11/20/09 12:00 PM Re: How long does it take......... [Re: kennywood]
EJR Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 796
Loc: Bristol, UK
I believe that there has been formal academic work on this topic in which Gabriela Imreh participated. If you Google Chaffin/Gabriela Imreh you will find a number of papers/PDFs. They also produced a book which can be previewed (but boy is it expensive).

Practicing Perfection

See chapters six & ten.

If remember correctly they videoed and analysed every practice session from first play through to CD recording, I think for the presto of Bach's Italien Concerto which was 33 hours and I it mentions she learnt Claire de Lune in 4 hours as a comparison.

I'll admit to finding all of this fascinating. But it seems important to figure out your own learning strengths and styles = "Know Thyself!"





Edited by EJR (11/20/09 12:39 PM)
_________________________
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#1309170 - 11/20/09 12:04 PM Re: How long does it take......... [Re: pianoloverus]
RonaldSteinway Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 1117
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: kennywood
The story about a Juilliard,and Moscow Conservatory, graduate sight reading the Pathetique, and taking 15 years to master a Chopin etude addresses the issue in a nutshell, whether the poster realized it or not. Many advanced pianists can sight read practically anything. The notes aren't the difficult part. I'm sure that pianist had the etudes' notes under his fingers for many years, but his point was that it took an extraordinary amount of time to MASTER (key word) the work, (i.e. going beyond the notes). I doubt that pianist would claim that he could MASTER "Liebestraum", in a day.


Yes, but in this case the Chopin Etude was one of the most difficult technically of the set, so just from a technical standpoint it could take a very long time. I think Liebestraum is much easier. I don't think many concert pianists would purposely choose to perform Liebestraum after only a day's practice, but I do think many could learn it very close to 100% technically and at least "good" from a musical standpoint in a day.

I think not only do good concert pianists have sightreading and technical abilities far greater than most, but their interpretive/musical are also much greater than most.


I agree with you. As I had said that a concert pianist will be able to play Liebestraum within a day both technically and musically (may not be the best, but, for sure, decent performace). However, with Op.10 No.2, I bet even a month, most concert pianists will be afraid of performing that Etude in front of public. It is hard to fake Op.10 No. 2.

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#1309194 - 11/20/09 12:33 PM Re: How long does it take......... [Re: RonaldSteinway]
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
I played 10/2 last year in an amateur electronic recital that's still accessible online. I suppose it's patently inferior to what 99.9% of professionals could do smile , but I wasn't embarrassed.

FWIW, I don't think it should be significantly more challenging than Liebestraum No. 3 for an expert reader to work up on short notice. The left hand is a very prosaic alternation of single notes or octaves with chords in a routine harmonic progression, and I don't think the right hand is so complex once it's grasped that it's almost entirely a chromatic scale played with 3-4-5.

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#1309232 - 11/20/09 01:36 PM Re: How long does it take......... [Re: sotto voce]
david_a Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 2881
I'm going to say a terrible thing now.

I think that very often what we call "substance" is merely a "boy scout difficult piano piece badge" that we award ourselves after spending huge amounts of time learning something. I don't think my months-long work on something that was difficult for me actually makes my performance better than that of the genius who can learn the same thing in three days or three minutes.

Some geniuses play mechanically rather than musically, but I think that's a different issue - because some of them really do play musically, right away.
_________________________
(I'm a piano teacher.)

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#1309235 - 11/20/09 01:41 PM Re: How long does it take......... [Re: david_a]
Morodiene Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 7234
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: david_a
I'm going to say a terrible thing now.

I think that very often what we call "substance" is merely a "boy scout difficult piano piece badge" that we award ourselves after spending huge amounts of time learning something. I don't think my months-long work on something that was difficult for me actually makes my performance better than that of the genius who can learn the same thing in three days or three minutes.

Some geniuses play mechanically rather than musically, but I think that's a different issue - because some of them really do play musically, right away.

And then there's people like me, who can play anything musically, with a lot of wrong notes smile
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
WMTA member
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#1309273 - 11/20/09 02:51 PM Re: How long does it take......... [Re: Morodiene]
david_a Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 2881
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
Originally Posted By: david_a
I'm going to say a terrible thing now.

I think that very often what we call "substance" is merely a "boy scout difficult piano piece badge" that we award ourselves after spending huge amounts of time learning something. I don't think my months-long work on something that was difficult for me actually makes my performance better than that of the genius who can learn the same thing in three days or three minutes.

Some geniuses play mechanically rather than musically, but I think that's a different issue - because some of them really do play musically, right away.

And then there's people like me, who can play anything musically, with a lot of wrong notes smile
That's pretty much how I perceive myself as well. Musical understanding vs technical understanding. Some people seem to me to have just one or the other, while some seem to have both. But can guys like me (I play with often-shameful technique) actually learn to do exactly what the "wind-up piano action figures" do? Can the mechanical pounders learn to play music just as beautifully as [insert personal favourite here]? Or are we all more or less stuck as we are?

AND, most importantly: Am I making a false distinction here? Is it really all one skill, that I'm wrong to divide?
_________________________
(I'm a piano teacher.)

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#1309347 - 11/20/09 04:58 PM Re: How long does it take......... [Re: sotto voce]
RonaldSteinway Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 1117
Originally Posted By: sotto voce
I played 10/2 last year in an amateur electronic recital that's still accessible online. I suppose it's patently inferior to what 99.9% of professionals could do :), but I wasn't embarrassed.

FWIW, I don't think it should be significantly more challenging than Liebestraum No. 3 for an expert reader to work up on short notice. The left hand very prosaic alternation of single notes or octaves with chords in a routine harmonic progression, and I don't think the right hand is so complex once it's grasped that it's almost entirely a chromatic scale played with 3-4-5.

Steven


I listened to both of them....Nothing to be embarrassed, it is what it is.

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#1309535 - 11/20/09 11:28 PM Re: How long does it take......... [Re: david_a]
kennywood Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/14/09
Posts: 43
Originally Posted By: david_a
I'm going to say a terrible thing now.

I think that very often what we call "substance" is merely a "boy scout difficult piano piece badge" that we award ourselves after spending huge amounts of time learning something. I don't think my months-long work on something that was difficult for me actually makes my performance better than that of the genius who can learn the same thing in three days or three minutes.

Some geniuses play mechanically rather than musically, but I think that's a different issue - because some of them really do play musically, right away.


No one plays musically right away. After learning to incorporate all the many facets of good musicianship into one's playing, then, perhaps, a person's playing is more immediately musical.
In regard to your first paragraph...were those three months spent on technical issues, or, were they spent searching for the composers voice and how best to convey what you believe he/she to be saying to your audience? Of course, you can't term simply covering the notes as "substance". There may, indeed, be more substance to your work than that of your "genius", who is able to pull off a technically sound, musical performance at a faster rate. Substance is not about the amount of time spent with a work or how polished your performance is. Substance is about getting behind the notes and speaking through the composer to your audience.

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#1309546 - 11/21/09 12:00 AM Re: How long does it take......... [Re: kennywood]
david_a Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 2881
Originally Posted By: kennywood
No one plays musically right away. After learning to incorporate all the many facets of good musicianship into one's playing, then, perhaps, a person's playing is more immediately musical.
Unless I'm misunderstanding your grammar somehow, you have just directly contradicted yourself.
_________________________
(I'm a piano teacher.)

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#1309576 - 11/21/09 01:06 AM Re: How long does it take......... [Re: david_a]
Canonie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 1941
Loc: Australia
Leaving the technique vs musicality aside for a bit...
I remember the first time that I was presented with the sort of extraordinary skill that the op is refering to. I used to sometimes sit in on lessons with a student (piano major) just to observe.

I remember when I first heard this student play one of the later skriabin sonatas (can't remember which number, but i know it was a later one, but not Vers la Flamme) in his lesson. He played by memory while the professor and I followed the score; it was an exciting, accurate performance followed by a brief discussion on some minor interpretive points. It was (almost) the first time I had heard skriabin and his performance made me very excited about this composer. So I asked the professor "how long has student been learning this piece?". Answer, "A week". I can still remember how surprised and impressed I was, very inspiring laugh

This student's piano playing, learning and memory skills would have been above most if not all of the students at the conservatory at that time, yea he was a top student, but I saw him eat and drink - definitely human.
_________________________

Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it.
Alex Ross.

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#1309779 - 11/21/09 01:14 PM Re: How long does it take......... [Re: Brent B]
Pogorelich. Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 3662
My boyfriend learned two Ligeti etudes, L'escalier and Arc-en-ciel, in about a week (1-3 hours of practice per day) and performed them at the opening at a grand hall here.

He's also the only person I know who can learn a concerto such as the Chopin f minor in under three weeks and perform it with orchestra.
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'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

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#1309810 - 11/21/09 01:49 PM Re: How long does it take......... [Re: Pogorelich.]
Horowitzian Online   blank
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8115
...I guess that explains your mood emoticon. laugh
_________________________
~H

Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#1309830 - 11/21/09 02:11 PM Re: How long does it take......... [Re: Horowitzian]
Pogorelich. Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 3662
hahaahah.. YES =)
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

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#1310638 - 11/22/09 08:46 PM Re: How long does it take......... [Re: Pogorelich.]
PartyPianist Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/05/09
Posts: 281
I can only speak from experience. To start, one for Sotto Voce. It took me 3 attempts to be able to perform Faure's Ballade. I was shocked by my first attempt as the performance made no sense whatsoever.

I can usually make a plausible performance of anything - on sight. Sometimes I play at full speed. Others I play at maybe 70%. Now I understand Liszt's mind, a relatively demonic score can seem easy to me. Conversely Liadov or Tanayev are unknown to me, so I would imagine there will be the learning curve of understanding the composer. For instance, the ballade is the only work I have played for Faure. It was of a difficulty that it needed to be taken seriously. Therefore the first performance threw me. The same thing happened when I first attempted Albeniz Iberian suite.

Invariably small issue points will materialise in all works. These need to be resolved. Even at concert standard, a single bar may take a whole year to resolve. There are three wider issues. Has the performance bedded down? What standard is the baseline for performance? Is greater familiarity with a chosen work going to "add some"?
_________________________
You play it & I'll hum it, but currently rehearsing:

Bach WTC book 2 no 15 G major, no 20 A minor, no 22 Bb Minor
Mozart A minor Sonata K310
Mendelssohn Op 35 preludes and fuges
Busoni Carmen Fantasy
Rachmaninov Bb prelude OP 23 no 2
Lyapunov Humoreske Op 34
and others

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#1310641 - 11/22/09 08:49 PM Re: How long does it take......... [Re: Pogorelich.]
Horowitzian Online   blank
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8115
Originally Posted By: AngelinaPogorelich
hahaahah.. YES =)


I thought as much! grin Your boyfriend must have some crazy good skills...
_________________________
~H

Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#1310657 - 11/22/09 09:20 PM Re: How long does it take......... [Re: BruceD]
Oz Marcus Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/23/09
Posts: 456
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: BruceD
Originally Posted By: sotto voce
[...]
What does "learning" mean, anyway?

Steven


Along with reference to Steven's post, I have two answers to your initial question :

1. It depends.

2. How long is a piece of string?

Regards,


I have it on very good authority that a piece of string is 43.2cm grin
_________________________
Oz Marcus
Currently working on:
Schubert Impromptu in C minor - D899
Chopin Prelude Op28 No 15, nocturne Op48 no 1
Bach Prelude & Fuge WTC II No 12 in F minor
Aspiring to Rautavaara - Piano Sonata 2 - Fire Sermon

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