Hi there,

I can´t help but sharing my 5 cents of worth here.

I promoted myself to "part-time tuner" a while ago. Mainly because I tune part-time as of now, and then because I feel I've fought my way through the newbie pondering.

Needless to say, it's not getting easier. I recognize this from my musical career - the more you learn, the more choices are introduced, and suddenly it gets... well, kind of personal.

And I'm still, embarrasingly enough, struggling with the basics. I have no idea how to tune a 2:1 in the high treble. "It's easy, just use the standard check for a 2:1 octave" you might say. Honestly, I can't separate beats at that ratio in the high treble. Any other checks? (please? As of now, I go by ear, and rely on my 20 years as a professional piano player. Still, it would be nice to get the physics right, just for confidence.)

Speaking of that, I spent 2 1/2 hours reading the forum posts yesterday night, and that made my (fri)day a lot easier.

1) the discussion about checks for pure 4ths/5ts (Jeff, Bill) gave me some ideas that really worked well today. As I've mentioned before, I tune by a home made sequence that is very close to Bill's "ET via Marpurg.

Up until now, I've put the reference "pure" 4ths and 5ths by ear, sometimes misjudging. When the two of you discussed the checks, I tried this today: a) put the F-A-C#-F by ear and feel, b) put the F#3 and E4 *exactly* where it should be, using the checks. c) put the B3 "in between", d) put G3 and D#4 towards where their ratios command them.

It worked wonders on a Steinway D and a Yamaha C7. I realize that these are high-quality instruments, but I'll test it on "normal" pianos as well.

2) The bass. Jeez, I've had a lot of troubles with the bass. Most books tell you to tune to where it sounds least offensive. That is contradictory to my attitude as a tuner, as I strive for the best place, all the time.

Up until now, I've gone by ear and by the "one (two) octave + a minor 7th" test, just to check that things arent really screwed up. Yesterday, I got some input (Bill) about using 6:3/4:2/2:1 for the piano until you know where they are.

I easily relate this to jazz piano. Hard to play "outside" unless you know where "inside" is (homage to the N.Y. piano tradition of which I'm a humble disciple )

So, today I just tuned 6:3/4:2/(and-something-close-to 2:1)

The trouble in the bass was gone as soon as I started to ghost the tones (as discussed in yet another thread, and brought into
my focus by reading that very thread). Boy, does it work wonders on large grands I guess reality will hit me hard in the face when I get back to the spinets, but then I've at least seen the light once...

Todays tuning was for a performance of Carmina Burana, the version with 2 pianos/perc/choir. As mentioned earlier, the pianos were a Steinway D and a Yamaha C7. The Steinway was at 441 (residing in the concert hall), the newly arrived Yamaha was at 445. At the rehearsal they where in tune (at our 'european standard' of 442), sounding good, and held ok throughout. The concert is sunday night, and I will tune them again sunday morning.

Bottom line (referring to topic) is that the discussion earlier about wether the forum has lost its importance or not is of second nature, as I see it. I learn a lot here, and I'll start giving something back as soon as I have the opportunity.

/pati

Best and least offensive are the same thing, unless your aim is for an offensive tuning.

Possibly, and probably - considering the outcome. Mentally, it's a whole different game.

One must aim for the best that can be done. That is not perfect, as pianos are not perfect. However, you must get beyond the best that you can do to get to the best that can be done.

You do not need to spend all day trying to get a spinet to sound like a concert grand. That serves neither you nor the customer. Also, the customer is more interested in getting their piano to sound good for a long time, rather than sounding perfect for a day or two.

I hear you. My perfectionism is getting the best of me. I learn what you're saying, little by little (other influences regarding this: Jerry, Bob.) Thus, my regular tuning has now dropped from 2 hrs to 1 hr 15 min. Concert tuning is still 2 - 2 1/2 hour. Is this in wain? I just can't leave a Steinway D until I've done my best, and quadruple-checked it...

I'm a huge fan of Rick Baldassin's book "On Pitch". He very clearly explains the various tests, and why we tune different partials in different parts of the keyboard. He also relates aural tuning and ETD tuning, so you can go back and forth between the two.

His website is here: http://www.baldassinpianos.com/contact-baldassin-pianos.asp

--Cy--

Thanks Cy,

I've heard a lot of good things about that book, I will order it from his website!

/patrick

Patrick:

Let me share some of my own tuning philosophy and its results, not that anyone else should have the same thoughts, but so you can understand what I am saying.

A piano being an imperfect instrument cannot be tuned perfectly. So I try to tune pianos perfectly out-of-tune, (but rarely mention this to customers.) The longer I work on a piano the better in tune it is, but at a certain point it actually sounds worse and worse to me. The fine little imperfections come out and all I end up doing is trying to make things sound less bad. That is when I know the tuning is best left were it is. And then when it is played by someone else, it sounds wonderful.

Of course the low bass and high treble are the hardest. The bass on most spinets have strings with random partials. I find it best to put a little extra stretch on every octave so that nothing quite lines up. I think this works because the tuning is no longer harmonious, and the ear does not look for the harmonics to line up. The tuning becomes melodic and the ear accepts where the notes are as being “correct.” A spanner for tuning beatless 12ths works very well for pianos like this. After all, when bass strings partials are random, how can you tune the same extra stretch by listening to octaves with multiple partial matches?

In the high treble, the only way I know of to tune beatless 2:1 octaves is to listen to them while playing the octave. I suppose you could set up a drone with a test note and adjust the pitch to produce a test beatrate in a useable range, but it is simpler to just start a little below pitch and listen as the partials line up. Of course, there are those false beats to deal with and actually setting the pin and string. But if you use a smooth pull, you can hear what the best place sounds like as you go through it and then use whatever hammer technique is appropriate to get that sound. (This works well for high treble unisons, also)

But are beatless 2:1 octave the best choice in the very high treble? I do not think so. From a practical stand point, it is easier to have an even sounding top octave if all the octaves are a little wide. If there are false beats or difficulties in pin setting or string rendering they are less noticeable if the top octave has a bit of shimmer. And the top octave then is tuned more melodious than harmonious much like I mentioned about tuning the bass on spinets. The ear stops demanding that the harmonics line up and accepts where the pitches are as melodically correct.

I hear you...



Thanks, I will try just that!



I agree, again Thank you for confirming my own thoughts, sounds like I'm at least roughly on track.

regards, patrick

High treble is question of context and of instrument. It may be necessary that after hearing what may be played (concert venue) the treble could be a tad more stretched, or the demand can be from the pianist.

But I've meet pianists who want the note 1 and the note 85 to sound perfectly in tune, which is possible with some good amount of stretch but only up to some point.

With very large strech in the medium range, I have noticed that some tuners need to tune the high treble flat.

Interesting effect.

I dont strech a lot the high treble it may tone well harmonically, and fall in the partial serial from below naturally, then it may tone well with the medium range as well.
Yes the stretch in the medium allow us to have some margin for the tuning. But that's the instrument that dictate it , some pianos (Fazioli) harly accept any added stretch.