Kurtmen,

You are entitled to your opinion, but our experience is quite different. It is different to the point that your post, along with some of your other posts, has me convinced that your understanding of voicing, design, and prep are very different than mine.

I would suggest that you stick to offering your opinions about the products you sell, rather than trying to put down your competitors.

Also, Brodmann's suggested prep list is a sign that they are serious and professional and want their pianos represented well. It is the height of spin to say that a manufacturer who asks their dealers to prepare their products to a high standard is doing something wrong. I would say that the manufacturers who have short prep lists for their dealers are the ones cheating both the dealer and the purchaser. There is nothing that is not normal and basic in Brodmann's suggested prep list. Most dealers would be wise to apply it to their non Brodmann pianos that neglected to make the effort to supply minimum standards for how those pianos should be prepared.

I think this is where the difference is: You are thinking in terms of competition. I don't.

I don't consider that Broadmann is a significant competitor in any large market or a brand in demand by the general public.
My intention is simply to provide information to the original poster of this topic, based on my own experience with Broadmann and Kawai in terms of *Pricing* and *Performance*.
In fact I think the individual who started the post is not even in North America.

I’m sorry for what I have to tell you but people like you disappointed me the most. A knowledgeable rebuilder has to fogged his understanding about pianos because his tied-up to a particular brand.

By the way since your experience with the brand has been different. It was the performance of the piano the only difference, or did you also have to pay double the price we were offered?

Carnes Piano Company San Jose
Purveyors of:
Kawai, Seiler, Blüthner, Wilh. Steinberg, Charles Walter, Shigeru Kawai.

Kurtman:

With your line up of pianos I wouldn't carry makes like Brodmann either and get rid of it.

Who wants to loose constantly deals to their [more expensive] main lines?

Just imagine the embarrassement someone perhaps preferring a Brodmann over Shigeru?

Of course you'd say "can't happen" - we both know better...

No offense - this is obviously how business works in America....

Norbert

Norbert my friend,

I think you have just set yourself up as the hoist of your own petard.

fingers

Yes. This new strategy of suggesting that a relatively low-priced brand is too scary good for positioning within a competitor's other lines (Hailun/BPrentice; Brodmann/Kurtmen) does seem a bit perilous. I suppose most retailers who stock Brodmann have more expensive lines to sell as well. What to do? What to do?

BTW Fingers,

You certainly do have S T Y L E. If you ever market a line of Fingers collectibles, let me know.

Uh, thanks Turandot. Any credit ought to go to Larry David.

Hmmmm...Fingers Collectibles. Now there's an idea!
Business is a little slow these days.

fingers

Dear Turondot:

It seems that whatever anybody is saying on this site will be forever contradicted and portrayed as evil by someone else.

The buttom line is that for most dealers it is all about making money - and nothing else.

The other "buttom line" is that for pianos to cost more in today's economy - they have to offer more - MUCH more!

Clearly and noticeable in each and every detail.

Now ask yourself: is this really possible comparing the 'mid-range-to-good' type pianos offered by most manufacturers today?

Then, why are these type discussions going on here at all?

I can understand spending more money on a Bentley than a Kia but how do you justify a much higher or double the price for a watch that doesn't seem have a much different built quality, function or run differently from one half its price?

These are the questions modern consumers are increasingly asking and we dealers better select our piano lines accordingly.

Modern consumers have questions and will increasingly continue to have them: we dealers will need answers - *credible* answers especially....

Answers that can be either objectively determined by musicians themselves or at least 'identified' in some other way.

Yet, doing this is exactly what has become the troubling part.

Having entered the business only some 23 years ago, I never had the pleasure simply sitting at the cashier shouting "next one please"....

The best known brands had long been given out,tied up in the hands of those who could promise their suppliers selling the most - did anything else ever matter?

Once the money trough was running, little if any attention was paid to those who would quietly emerge offering not only good value but "that something extra" increasingly gaining the attention of serious musicians.

What had increasingly become a "natural selection of excellence" for some, had at same time become a [understandable...] threat to others.

All of this of course is not my own doing but something that is going on in the whole world today affecting each country, each company and each individual.

Oh, before I forget... "individual"

What you or anybody else here, buy an electric car made in India for $ 5000 running 300 miles on one single charge of electrical power?

Waiting for your answer, by the way - it's what's coming next....

Norbert

If somebody likes Michael Jackson over Mozart, I don’t see why not somebody will purchase a Brodmann over a Shigeru or a Bluthner.
There is a person for every piano and money to be made in all sectors of the market.
Are you kidding me?



Of course it could happen! I have seen worse than just a Broadmann over a Shigeru.
I'm sure somebody as talented as you can sell anything over anything.



What is this?
We went from talking about tone, touch, pricing, and from sharing our experiences and opinions with the original poster to the Brodmann's dealers defense front.

I gave a point of view to the poster and perhaps not what Brodmann dealers want to hear FINE! Just reply with your own opinion about components, touch, tone etc.

But what is all this emotional nonsense above?

Oh...I think this is the thread that Rod was referring to in his Tar and Feather thread.

I'll have to put in my 2 cents worth: I don't see anything particularly wrong with a dealer giving his/her opinion of why they decided not to carry a brand anymore, and why they feel a comparison between two different pianos may not be a fair comparison.

A question to all: Where, in your opinions do the rest of the Kawais (GM/GE series) compare to the Brodmanns? From what I can tell from a musicians standpoint, the RX series are better than the GM, and the Brodmanns should be compared more fairly to the lower line of Kawais.

I think that sometimes dealers may want to create some confusion by suggesting that a brand, in this case Kawai, doesn't have any range of quality of instruments, when in fact it does. Brodmann from what I remember also has two quality levels as well. Perhaps the ones assembled in Vienna are more of a direct competitor to the RX?

Dear Friend Norbert,

I really don't know what to say to all of this. Obviously, Kawai and Yamaha can get customers to pay a premium for their generations of success and their reputation for quality of product and service. I suppose that means better margins for them and their retailers, and an easier sell for a sales pro who represents them (if anything about piano sales today can be said to be easy). I suppose that if and when Brodmann achieves a higher visibility and the beginnings of a good reputation of its own, Brodmann will charge accordingly. The company and its dealers will reap a bigger and better harvest and hopefully re-invest some of that in building even better pianos.

Of course you and Keith are free to go off on Kurtmen just as he is free to speak his mind. I'm not sure it serves anyone's purposes though.

It was Fingers' observation that when you bring up the possibility of your Brodmann threatening the selling prices of higher-priced brands of other dealers, that you as a seller of Estonia and Sauter have to deal with the same question. I see Fingers' point and agree with him. Fingers addressed you as a friend and I have done the same. But I have to be honest. If all the retailers here begin poking at other dealers' inventory saying such things as "I can understand why you don't want to stock Hailun because it will show up your Japanese brands", or "I can understand why you don't take on Brodmann because it will kill your Kawai sales", or "I can understand your reluctance to carry X because it will outshine your higher-priced Y", the traveling sales carnival that occurs here daily will be that much sillier and the infighting will benefit no one.

Now, to answer your personal question to me, I'm aware that price and quality do not proceed lockstep in straight parallel lines and that some pianos that are priced lower are in fact better instruments than some that are priced higher. In my personal circumstances I will always be looking for value, paying less attention to track record, and paying no attention to brand prestige. That's because I don't have a lot of money to throw around generally, and if I do I do, I don't spend it on musical instruments.

I know these are bleak times for piano retail and I know the pride that you, Keith, Kurtmen and many others here take in your business. I sincerely hope that demand picks up to a level that will reward your financial risk, hard work, and ability to select products that customers find attractive.

Are you a math wiz Turnadot because I love how you always use X and Y variables. Maybe on day you should change it up, maybe one day A and B can be used, push the envelope.

It's good to read the lighter side of Louis.

No, I'm no math wiz, far from it. If I wanted to push the envelope, I guess I'd use names instead of X and Y, no?

Now I have a suggestion for you as well. Since you're fascinated with pianos, try to get yourself a part-time gig at a piano shop. If you're too young to be officially on the payroll, maybe you could do a volunteer / apprentice kind of thing and fill in some of your blanks about what makes A different from B.

Norbert,
You raise an interesting question that begs another question: Why does any particular purchase need to be justified? And to who? Oneself? The salesperson?

Are you also suggesting from your previous post that dealers such as Ori and Keith , who represent Brodmann as well as a variety of top shelf piano manufacturers, fear embarrassment and shame in that the quality of their more expensive lines actually fail to exceed, (at least by any significant margin) that of Brodmann? Do they too, like Kurtmen fear constantly losing deals to their more expensive lines?

Do you Norbert, fear losing a more expensive sale of an Estonia or Sauter to a Brodmann? Something tells me the answer is no.

I can't speak for Ori, Keith nor Kurtmen, but I'm willing to bet that they do not fear losing a more expensive sale to one of their less expensive brands and they clearly recognize the function, benefit and compromise of each piano they carry and how each piano can serve, in their own way, a wide range of customer's needs/desires.

BTW, I own mechanical watches and simply enjoy their complications. The Grandfather clock and the acoustic piano are the only other devices that work when the power inevitably goes out at the house.

fingers

Power going out - reminds me of my days growing up in am Asian country where from occasionally there would be power outages.

No TV, too dark at night to read - so the only thing was to play the piano and sing!

Theoretically nobody has to justify any purchase to anyone and is free to make choice on a purely emotional basis if she/he wants to do so.

Often however there is a rational phase in a buying process that preceeds the final 'pull the trigger' moment which again by itself is purely emotional.
If one needs to justify anything it should be to oneself.

But as we regularly see on this forum many people apparently have a need of others confirming their choice when announcing the purchase of a piano.
Sometimes then whether the process contained a rational phase or not, their might follow buyer's remorse which again is emotional, unfortunately.

Now about how I understood Norbert's statement. I think he simply wanted to say that in former days a customer who was in for a mid-price piano of good quality did not have to think a lot: it was either Yamaha or Kawai, or sometimes Petrof in the good old days they were still moderately priced.

Today it has become quite crowdy in this segment and potential customers are offered many alternatives of instruments with a price tag lower than the established brands an for some people at a quality level that at least equals that of the established ones.

And yes once in a while there will be people chosing one of those - mainly Chinese - quality brands over the much more expensive high end brands; there are always exceptional people around who make exceptional choices. And also once in a while there will be prospects entering a showroom pretending they are interested in a high end brand an finally get home with an affordable piano, simply because initially they did not want to admit there budget was limitted.

schwammerl.

Interesting post, Luc. I would add to your profile of shoppers.....

"entering a showroom pretending they are interested in a high end brand an finally get home with an affordable piano, simply because initially they did not want to admit there budget was limited"

....the opposite situation of the shopper who enters the showroom letting on that he has next to nothing in the way of funds and then looking things over from the bottom up. I think this is the ultimate technique for a variety of reasons which I won't go into here.

Another aspect of this is that the range in prices continues to expand while the range in quality levels is becoming compressed. While the mid-level Yamahas and Kawais might seem to be approaching the price of 'better' pianos, in actuality those 'better' pianos are rising in price as much if not more. Down at the bottom of Fine's barrel , the Chinese and Indonesian brands are still hammering the market with low selling prices while at the same time improving quality. Of course labor costs and currency exchange rates play a big role in this, but the net result is a compression in quality range with an expansion in price range.

Retailers had better be ready to provide justification for their high-priced stuff even if, as Fingers said, the buyer may need no justification other than his freedom of choice to spend as he likes.

People here always assume that when a person picks a Brodmann over a Steinway (or whatever), that this must be an embarrassment for the higher-rated brand. Maybe it just means that the person couldn't afford the Steinway. Or, perhaps, it might mean that the person is a musical embarrassment him/herself. Who knows..... All things are possible... People here often draw wrong conclusions when brand X is picked over brand Y. Lovers of brand X feel reassured that their piano is the better choice. Lovers of Y feel piqued and try to find counter arguments. One usually tries to harmonize and justify one's purchase before others.

Funny! I agree. I think a piano should leave the factory in as good a tonal condition as possible. A well-prepped piano straight from the factory shows that the makers who adhere to careful voicing, take their job very seriously. Dealer preparation and voicing can do some fine-tweaking but it cannot completely transform/change an instrument.

What I find most interesting is that some (many?) dealers will be the first to encourage customers in the direction they see fit and that consumers will feel reassured with this dealer encouragement. What becomes more interesting still is when the consumer realizes that the dealers, for the most part, are simply trying to sell their wares and will say anything (some to the extent of FUD of competitors products, or worse) to encourage the sale. But, as suggested by Turandot's post about a savvy consumer not indicating how much they can or will spend on an instrument may be given contradictory sales spin when the dealer realizes, perhaps too late, that someone looking at entry level pianos and being told that these are just as good if not better than higher priced pianos, then begins to show interest in the higher priced ones only to be told that, well yes, of course the higher priced pianos really are of better quality.

To the glitterati, how much one can afford and how much one is willing to spend are pretty much the same thing.

To the literati, how much one can afford how much one is willing to spend are entirely different.

Very good point. I'd like to add that people also like to point out that "I pay much less for mine and mine is just as good or even better than yours". This is where problems often start.

and I am going to get my cheapo Kawai voiced to sound like a Bosie by my super technician.

Yes, I agree. I don't want to sound condescending but if someone who is looking for a "small affordable" grand here posts that they like a brand better than the other, that to me doesn't mean much. If an experienced pianist with a trained ear and great musicality renders such a statement, that carries more weight and meaning to me. Oftentimes, beginners don't have the ear to really discern the differences between pianos and will just conclude their search by saying: "Why would I spend so much on expensive brand X when I can have brand Y for much less, and it sounds at least as good."

More expensive pianos are oftentimes picked by people who love their (the pianos', that is) musical abilities. Both, a Brodmann and a Boesendorfer will make fine shiny black furniture. In fact, for paying the premium for a Boesendorfer, one doesn't get more glitter or more furniture. To the laymen, different grands probably look pretty similar anyway on the outside.
If I think back, the grands that my teachers had were not meant to display wealth or a snobby attitude, they were just excellent tools that aided their owners in making music. Not everyone who buys an expensive piano is rich or seeks to display their status. Sometimes it happens that these instruments just serve as tools.
That's how I think about my own piano. The casing/body is looks actually pretty simple: no spade legs, a boring standard high-gloss polyester finish, one-piece fallboard, simple lyre without any frills, no special wood veneer... but the music that comes out of that box, thrills me day after day...

Perhaps they heard that from the dealer.

While the above can be true in some cases - who wouldn't expect a Boesendorfer at five times the price to be somewhat better than a Brodmann - it is equally true that pianos not costing a king's ransom can and often perform to the full satisfaction of individual pianists.

We have had many such cases, including 12 performing churches in our area and a host of well established local teachers and pianists

Just shop at any German maker offering cheaper lines today or Steinway for that matter - once it's established customer won't have dollars to pay for the flagship line - the lower line is suddenly described as "just as good" or "designed by" "centuries of experience" or "built by exact same standards" or what have you.

Curiously, it's never mentioned that in such case one would buy a far inferior let alone crappy piano.

Fact of the matter is that those who are trying to take on the best of the Chinese pianos on their own terms today, are entering dangerous territory.

It seems the interpretation of things seems to depend strictly from which end the pendulum starts swinging...

For the crowd not able or willing to pay four,five times the price, you have nothing to be ashamed of and I would certainly encourage you to keep looking out there.

When some "can't find satisfaction" in even higest places, others can it in areas and spots least expected.

Such are our present times - and increasingly becoming so.

Norbert

Seilerfan,

I understand your appreciation of your Seiler piano and your explanation of what it does for you, but I think you're skating pretty close to thin ice in this statement. A Brodmann may not be on a par with a Bosendorfer, but it has strong musical capabilities of its own and is also much more than shiny black furniture. Less expensive pianos are also "often chosen by people who love their (the piano's that is) piano's musical abilities".



As you say, all things are possible. But the liklihood that a person choosing a Brodmann is a musical embarrassment is very small. Again, I don't know what you're hinting at exactly, but I do sense a bit of condescension despite your saying that there is none.

I know many players with pianos that might seem like a musical embarrassment to some folks until their owners sit and play them. These owners would include many professional musicians who are hardly laymen and obviously play very well.



Rod,

As is often the case, you appear to have something on your mind other than the thread topic.

There is no question that some of the emerging quality makes from China pose a serious threat to certain others today.

A good product mix with some higher rated makes by same dealer allows customers to make choices of their own.

If this means loosing a deal to a more expensive piano in same showroom, so be it.

Others refuse to take these type "losses" a they go against the grain of their established business.

This is the very basis of much being said here.

Meantime the world is moving on - with and without our stated opinions and individual take on things.

2010 wil be one interesting year to watch...

Norbert

Heck with 2010.

I'll wait till 2020 and visit this thread again and see who and what piano will be around still.

Will you be around Norbert ? cuz I might not make it to see you say "I told you so!" by then

Just to demonstrate how complicated a piano sales can be and that it is not always black or white, let me tell you a story, a story indeed but a true once however.

A couple of years back when Brodmann entered the Belgian market I wanted to know more about the brand than what the dealer had told me or what I could read on the website; so I started Googling and stumbled upon someone in the U.S. selling his Brodmann 187 of less than half a year old.

The seller described the piano as follows [quote from the offer I kept a hardcopy from]:
" Amazing beautiful sounding handcrafted grand piano. We went to Vienna with my wife to purchase a Boesendorfer grand piano, there we visited the Joseph Brodmann Piano showroom and decided for the Brodmann grand, we just got it months ago, it took us 4 months of anxious waiting to get it, we played it only a few times, now we have to move to an apartment and this beauty does not fit, we just ordered a Brodmann 132 upright studio piano."

Curious as I am I wanted to know why in the first place he chose the Brodmann and sent him an e-mail, of course clearly stating I was not a potential buyer as I lived in Belgium and was not going to by a used piano in the U.S..
The person did take the time to answer my question though and said following [quoted from his e-mail I ket a hard copy of]:
" I am very busy at the time and the piano is already sold, but I will just comment that my choice was made based on two reasons. Brodmann pianos although assembled in China, are an exceptional value plus the Brodmann I particularly bought was amazingly well voiced and regulated. Bösendorfer is a great piano, but for 25% of the cost of a Bösendorfer I got a great piano. I am already enjoying a 125 Brodmann upright and it sounds wonderful also, a little brighter than the 187, but still a great piano, way better than Yamaha or Kawai upright. I would compare the 125 to the sound of Schimmel uprights.

The other reason why I chose the Brodmann is the sound is clear like bells and very well balanced, the bass is amazing for the size and well I cannot say enough about Brodmann pianos, they are the best bang for the buck piano ever. I believe that unless you have money left over to spend an a 50,000 Euro piano, and want a brand name, you are better off buying a Brodmann and spending the rest of the money on a Mercedez Benz Kompressor 220.

Best wishes,

XXX"

schwammerl.

In addition to my earlier reply:

World no.1 piano company Steinway have just purchased a quantity of machinery from the defunct Yamaha-Kemble factory in England.