Hello,
Initially I was lookin for grand in the 6'- 7' size when I came across this posting on CL (I copied it below). I just wanted to seek out experts' opinion before I travel to check this piano out (it is 2hr drive away). Do you think it really is a great deal?
How large should a room be to house this piano (I don't wanna blast the audience with the too much sound)?
Thank you!
"This is a 1911 Kimball 9' Concert Grand that has been completely restored. When this piano was made Kimball was a real contender as a manufacturer in the market. This was the flagship piano of Kimball when it was made and very few were ever created. We spent over $15,000 just on the restoration alone and shortly afterwards had to move out of state and left the piano behind. This is a real bargain for someone at this price!

The bass on the piano is amazing and the touch light and fliud. He had the cabinet re-ebonized, reguilded the plate, refinished the soundboard, installed new hammers, dampers, strings, pins, keytops, action parts, re-weighted the keys, regulated it and voiced it to where it really sings nicely. Wes spent over $15,000 on the restoration alone.

The cabinet has some beautiful carvings on it that we intracately restored. Normally a restored 9' concert grand of any make would go for $25k-$75k. I am selling this piano inexpensively because I had to move and could not take it with me. Contact for more details. It is on consignment in a local store right now as I have no place to put it. The photos are not that great so email if you need more or better ones.

Price $9,800. "

Off-brand concert grands are not very popular and do not sell for much. They also may have characteristics a lot different from their other pianos, and even if there are other concert grands by that company, they might not be the same design. It will be difficult to find anyone who has experience with the particular model of piano, so you might not get any specific advice.

Thanks so much for your speedy reply DBD.
I see that you're in my area (I'm in SF).
if it's any help - this piano is in Ukiah's Mendocino Piano shop where it has been restored by Spencer Brewer. Here are the pics: http://www.spencerbrewer.com/kimball.htm

IMO it's a worth a trip, to audition this piano. The rebuild is sufficiently recent that the replaced parts should still have a lot of musical life in them.

It's always tone, touch, and appearance - to your ears, your fingers, and your eyes.

The best used piano money that you can spend is that spent for a prepurchase inspection by an experienced tech who has no affiliation with the seller.

A concert grand should be able to fill an entire house, but their long key sticks facilitate soft playing. Pianos can be voiced, rooms can be voiced. If you like the tone of this piano, it should be possible to voice the room. The operative words are soft and irregular.

The most important thing is that you really like the tone of this piano. Only one way to learn that.

Thank you for your opinion. Yes, the restoration is very recent and the restorer (in whose shop this piano is) seems like a real piano enthusiast.

When buying a restored piano, you're essentially buying the quality of the restoration. That's where that prepurchase inspection becomes important. Techs can evaluate things which most consumers - of whom I'm one - can't.

There's a registry of Registered Piano Technicians here.

It's a beautiful day today.

DBD, what do you mean by off-brand concert grand?
FogVilleLad - thanks for the RPT list link.

I checked the RPT list and the restorer of this piano is not listed. Should I be worried?
If I had a car I would go to look at this piano NOW, alas it's quite a hassle for me, hence my questions.
Thanks!

It is not going anywhere in a hurry, so go when you can. You need not be worried about the restorer's status, just his work.

Hard to imagine anyone rebuilding/restoring an old Kimball. Kimball was a real "contender" in the market place of many decades. They were known for decent blue collar working man's pianos in the catagory of Wurlitzer. They were never used on stages and for concert work that I know of. For those that consider resale, buyers for used 9' pianos that don't say Steinway & Sons, Mason & Hamlin, Yamaha, Kawai, or perhaps Bechstein are slim and none in the U.S.

No, and for the reason that BDB posted. Also, this is where that prepurchase inspection by an experienced tech who has no affiliation with the seller has an additional value.

OK, that's a hassle. I don't know who has the best rental rates these days. Any chance that there's a friend who could help?

As BDB posted, this piano is probably not moving soon. Marty Flinn's point about resale is also well taken. It's always a good idea to buy the piano that you believe you'll want to keep, but it's also true that the market for concert grands in thin and that Kimballs will not sell as quickly as will the brands that he listed.

The RPT exams test the skills needed for piano service in the field: tuning and typical repairs. There's not currently a test for rebuilders; those skills are very different.

I'm listed there, and I'm an excellent tuner (ahem), but I can't replace a soundboard; an excellent rebuilder may not even do tuning above a basic level.

So no, don't worry.

--Cy--

Kimball pretty much had a monopoly on concert pianos for the Columbian Exposition in Chicago, their home city, so they must have had some experience with concert grands. However, Paderewski did manage to smuggle a Steinway in, which may indicate that some pianists were not happy with them. He had a contract with Steinway, and that may have been as much of a factor.

Thank you all so much for sharing your opinions!


After reading the brand's history my understanding was that although Kimball's pianos went downhill (I have a student with real piece of Kimball c**p), they used to be well made. It's based on the fact that Larry Fine includes Kimball on his list of highly regarded piano brand names made before 1930.
When I researched their history i also noticed that all of the awards/gold medals they got where from around the period that this grand was made:
Chicago World's Fair - 1893
Trans- Missisipi Expo in Omaha -1898
Pacific Expo Seattle - 1909
Panama-Pacific Expo in san Francisco 1916
I'm not from this country, so I'm not sure how legit these awards were and whether they really reflected the quality of the pianos.

It looks like I may be able to go with a friend and check this grand this Friday. I'm very curious about it!

You guys need to watch what you're saying. My sister built Kimballs in Jasper!

Most older Kimball grands were poorer than average, lower on the spectrum than their uprights, which were nothing special themselves.

Some of their best grands were made not too long before they stopped making pianos. I would rather see someone get a Kimball Artist Console rather than an Acrosonic spinet. If you avoid the bottom of their line, there is a lot of potential in newer Kimballs.

Yikes! It seems that my previous assumptions were not correct. Why would they get all those awards and what not? are they bogus?

Awards at fairs do not mean much. You might read Arthur Loesser's Men, Women, and Pianos to see what sorts of things went on at them. It is a worthwhile read in any case.

As I said, a maker's concert grand rarely reflected what their other pianos were like.

Interesting.. Thanks for your book rec! I'll check it out.

I did just that back in the 1970s. A fairly large high school had one that was pretty much worn out and didn’t have the budget for a new piano. In those days there wasn’t the selection of Chinese-built concert grands there is today. They had shopped for a used piano with no success.

I looked at the piano and decided it was worth rebuilding. Kimball crowned their ribs so the board was in good condition. I don’t remember doing all that much to the bridges (though this was–what?–30 years back). The only major rebuilding problem I can remember was fitting the new pinblock to the top of the plate. The plate had quite warp to it; there was a gap of about 10 to 12 mm between the top of the pinblock and the bottom of the plate. This did not seem to have bothered Kimball overly much—they just let the tuning pins flagpole. This, of course, did wonders for tuning stability. I recall building up the top of the new pinblock with cross-banded maple veneer and doing a somewhat better job of fitting the block to the plate.

The only other oddity that I can recall was with the keyset. Most large pianos have tapered keysets with the treble keys being some shorter than the bass keys. This one had keys of equal length across the scale. I thought it odd at the time but I don’t recall anyone complaining about the feel of the action.

Overall I thought it was a decent piano. The HS auditorium seated about 1,000 people and the piano did a good job of filling the place with music. I attended the “inaugural” concert and can recall thinking a Steinway wouldn’t have sounded much better, if any. If the rebuilding of the piano in question was done well and if the oddity of the equal lengths of the keys passes the touch and feel test I don’t see why it wouldn’t be good piano for someone on a budget. Assuming the sound is acceptable and price is right, of course.

ddf

Sorry--local (i.e., Chinese) ISP problems.

ddf

Del, thanks for sharing your story!
I can't wait to see and play this piano.
Cheers!

Just a $0.02
Did a lot of research before we brought a Kimball upright. It is & has been a good beginner, fair working piano. Knowing Kimball was a mass production piano manufacturer & has average quality, would I pay $9000+ for a 1911 Grand Kimball ***NO*** even it is fully restored.

BTW am shopping for a baby grand recently. For that $$ or less, they are lots more NEWER choices such as Yamaha, Kawai, Steinway around (Grand or Baby Grand). Then put aside $600.00 for a tuner to take care of odds & ends…. You will definitely be more SOUND & MUSICAL happy. Good luck!!

Kimball was a mass production manufacturer but it's likely their 9' concert grands were not mass produced, or were produced to a higher level of quality. For many brands, the bigger the piano, the more work went into them. The quality of the rebuild may be even more important. I would look at this if I were looking for a 10,000 dollar or less piano.

I noticed a rebuilt Knabe 9' grand on ebay recently for about 7,900. It looks like that must be the price range for the off-brand concert grands. Not that Knabe and Kimball are off brands; they're just not really known for concert grands.

Just a question about this part of your post: Was it just an oversight that you left out Bosendorfer and maybe also Baldwin?

The sweetest-and-greatest 9' piano I ever came across, including everything, bar none, was a Bosendorfer.

Just browsing.......and just wanted to say that this is an EXTREMELY interesting thread.
If I were out there, I'd go and check out this piano, not to buy it but just out of curiosity after all that's been said on here.

Speaking as an amateur observer but experienced piano buyer, I'll say that if this piano is well made and has the 'real' feel and sound of a 9', it's a great buy.

Maybe an oversight omiting Baldwin and Bosendorfer. It is just the small numbers that bump them from my list. There are many world class instruments that didn't make my list. I was just thinking of demand.

Yes -- I can't remember when I last saw a Baldwin 9' -- maybe never.
But back in the day, I did hear of some performers who used them.

About Bosendorfer: I think quite a few people would want one, but are limited by PRICE.
There's nothing to make you feel poor like seeing a Bosendorfer price list.

I think that what one need evaluate is exactly what will $9K buy you in a used or rebuilt piano. No one has actually seen the aforementioned Kimball in person. A 9 footer is nonetheless a 9 footer. It will by necessity have a 6 foot+ length bass string at low A. Assuming that bridge placement is somewhere in the optimal range it will sound like a 9 footer. Will the treble sing like a Steinway? Probably not! But nothing else does either. It doesn't mean that there haven't been some wonderful instruments made other than Bosies and Steinways. It doesn't mean that it won't serve this individual handsomely for many years. Assuming that the action is in some kind of condition, that is it ACTUALLY was rebuilt in recent memory one might be surprised at how decent it sounds and plays. My question is what will $9K buy you that will sound better? I wouldn't swap any of my 9 footers for what $9K will typically buy in the marketplace. I nearly bought a Kimball 9' on the recommendation of an older tech friend and mentor. We could not come to terms and it needed a rebuild. I wasn't put off by the fact that it was a Kimball. It was in a concert hall at a university and it supposedly still sounded "good" despite its age and provenance. Judge each piano on its merits.

I would think that a good rebuilder would charge at least 9K just to refinish a concert grand. How much work could have been done on the insides?(unless the "complete restoration" was done years ago)