I suppose you find it brutal that one country wins the world cup and another loses. Oh well.

In any case Andorra's chances are always rather low.

Yes indeed, I did mention money in my son's pocket. That was partly in jest, but you don't seem to have much of a sense of humor. And in any case, there is nothing wrong with a child getting a few bucks to spend after working hundreds of hours to perfect his craft. Why do so many people view a couple of dollars as such a corruption of the human spirit? Give me a break.

David_a,

Why must you use terms like 'disingenuous' when you refer to my arguments? Pardon me for taking some exception to your turning back my open and friendly agreement with some of your points by insulting me.

Do you not see that when someone terms another's views 'idiotic' that this disrespect brooks no compromise or meeting of the minds. This I find objectionable. Why do you presume that my attempt to explain why I think my view's aren't idiotic marks me as trying to win in a 'beat you down' kind of sense?

On another issue that I chose to ignore at the time, you claim that it's just a semantic difference between parents who 'support' and parents who 'coerce.' Sorry, I don't buy it. I don't think this is a brilliant and obvious turn of phrase that ends the discussion.

You present the claim as though it fully accounts for all the alternatives. It doesn't. Parents and children can be partners in life.' Sometimes a child needs to be pushed. You may term this 'coercion.' But I'll warrant that any parent who has had a child understands that sometimes a work ethic has to be developed. It's not always innate in all situations. Sometimes a parent needs to console when disappointment is the child's dominant emotion. This is support. A good parent can go from one to the other without undergoing a personality transplant from meanness to gentleness.

In the end, the fact that there is a parent behind a successful child is not a condemnation of the parent or of the relationship. There is nothing necessarily superior about a child who pulls themselves up by their proverbial bootstraps in comparison with one who is nurtured by a long and loving relationship with a parent.

A 12 or 15 year-old student being kept out of a master class is compared with losing the world cup.

Give me a break.

Piano*Dad, we ought to agree to disagree, so to speak, and leave things there, don't you think? I give you the opportunity to get the last word in, if you like.

You provided a link to a description of two festivals, so you wanted members to notice something. That is why I asked:

You were trying to make a point and I didn't catch that point through the link.

The rest of the fluff I put in is simply what we saw as the purpose of lessons. Therefore any activity was chosen according to those priorities. It was to get the ball rolling. If you have different purposes, then that is fine. I was wondering whether the competitions helped toward those purposes. Or no - what the links told.

But generally speaking, since you linked to a description of two competitions in order for us to see something, what is it that you wanted to be noticed.

I have not expressed sentiments for or against. It is a question.

Landorrano,

Time is scarce. A master class can only be offered to one or two students. Some decision rule must be followed.

That doesn't make any sense, since we both know that money is spent on education in the US. Actually, the GDP per capita is about the same for Andorra and the US, but the US spends more than twice as much for education as a percent of GDP than Andorra spends, so your statement fall flat.
I'm glad you agree with my characterization of Andorra, though.
Since this is way off topic, I'm going to let you have whatever last word you want.

WHAT AN AWESOME THREAD!!!!!!

Wow, you sure know a lot, can't get anything by you.

As far as last words go, I'd just like to say that you have overlooked (or maybe it's the wikipedia entry that has overlooked) another economic activity of Andorrans: tobacco smuggling.

Also, all of this sort of spirited economic initiative, contraband, money laundering, ripping off tourists, well, it's true that in the international community it doesn't look good. So we are trying to diversify into more acceptable lines, like financial derivatives. Anybody want to buy some, at the insiders price? Just have a look at my website.

Keystring,

The two links that I put up just happened to be the first two that I thought of because my son has participated in each. The PianoFest at VCU is conducted by the music department there. It's a nice way to have a bunch of area young people play for each other, watch a master class, hear the faculty play for them, see some of the current music students play. It's a day long music festival. In previous years they have divided the students into groups based on interests, i.e. some have done an improv session with a jazz instructor. All of this is, of course, advertising for their program. But you can do good and do well at the same time. I have no problem with VCU advertising their wares while providing a fun musical experience for lots of kids.

The second one is the Williamsburg Music Club Auditions. This is the one sponsored by our area music club. They allow up to 40 young people from elementary age to high school age to audition before a panel of judges and an audience made up of very appreciative and supportive music club members. Each child is warmly greeted and warmly treated. They tend to give out many levels of awards. A quick perusal of the winners will show you that they give lots of awards as well, ranging from $100 to $1000. And they break the group into junior and senior levels so the eleven year olds aren't going up against the sixteen year olds.

Indeed, not everyone gets an award. If you are an absolute egalitarian you will take umbrage. OK, so be it. I'm not. I have no problem with better performers getting better results. My son has 'failed' at this audition in the past, and he has done wonderfully (like taking a first level award last year). Alpha and Omega, he has experienced both scenarios. Life is rich with that.

Your argument is of the "boo-hoo there are winners and losers" type. That's life, man. If a teenager can't handle being passed over for a prize or a masterclass, that teenager has some serious growing up to do. I'm not just talking piano here, I'm talking about life in general. This article comes to mind: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB117702894815776259.html

Music competitions make sense in exactly the same way as sex competitions. What's actually good and actually important about both music and sex, can't be judged. So the judges (who in each case should be ashamed of themselves for pretending to truly be able to judge) are reduced to cataloging measurable but ultimately secondary things such as attractiveness of the participants, speed, smooth action, and loudness.

I guess we will agree to disagree, and I will try to avoid using language like telling people they should be ashamed of themselves ... unless provoked by people who call me an idiot.

Sex competitions??? To me that says a lot about where you find your entertainment. I'll stick with piano competitions when I want to watch competitions, thank you very much!

What exactly is a sex competition? lol!

< insert comment >

Well you do have to admit this thread sucks....in every sense of the word.

EVERY sense?

Judging by the recent turn of conversation, yes.

Of course the crazy example of sex competitions is a sick joke and they don't really exist. (At least I sincerely hope not.) But the validity of the judging in those imaginary situations is precisely equal to that actually found in music competitions. Not because the judges are arrogant or bad - on the contrary, they are often some of the best musicians alive, placed in a ridiculous situation and having few alternatives. Only the relatively-inconsequential surface details of a musical performance are quantifiable for a judge. Students are thereby led to miss the point of performing, and persuaded instead to dedicate all their time to perfecting the surface details of their performances.

Judging from the kind of ecstatic mugging one sees—more suitable for the bedroom than the piano bench—in certain performers, it's become possible to mistake a piano competition for a sex competition.

Steven

Ok, let's run with this analogy of sex competitions: Are some people not better at sex than others? Sure, one partner might be of particular appeal to one "judge" more than another, but in the end, there are undoubtedly some people who will be better at it than others. Sure, it doesn't really "matter" to most of us, since most of us aren't trying to make a career out of sex; the same way competition is unnecessary for a pianist who only wishes to play for family and friends in the comfort of their own home.

I'm being silly, but I really have a point: it's not an "imaginary situation" as you describe it, for those of us who aspire to be professional musicians. If someday you want a career, it's important to be able to play, under pressure, in front of a critical audience. And you WILL be compared to others in your field, like it or not, officially or unofficially. This is not unique to the music industry, either. This plumber's work will be compared to that plumber's work, and if Plumber A doesn't measure up to Plumber B, Plumber A will not get the work. Who makes the best burger in town? Which neuro-surgeon is at the top of his her or her field? Competition is not a bad thing, my friends.

And lets also realize something else. We're not all talking about Van Cliburn level competitions here in which everybody is a spectacular talent. Most reasonable judges can tell the difference between a teen who has followed the score of his or her Beethoven sonata with good attention to nuance and detail and someone who has not, or between someone who has significant memory slips and someone who has it down well.

I wouldn't agree with most of the above. Since piano playing is an art, the judges don't always agree. For similar reasons most things about playing piano aren't precisely "quantifiable" like the 100 meter dash.

But I don't think many people would have difficulty deciding who was better between me and Yundi Li. I think judging a piano competition is similar except the differnces between the contestants is more subtle and less than me and Yundi.

Hopefully the judges have great musical experience ability, taste, and knowledge. (If they don't or are are motivated by non musical motives that's a different problem.)

To summarize, I think judging a piano performance is both subjective and objective.

It isn't a question of whether a youngster can handle it or not. Your "boo-hoo" thing misses the point, man.

Then what is the question?

And the top 3 get to participate in a master class and get 3 to 5 k for their, ahem, education. (Of couse, some youngsters will sagely put this money in the bank.)

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB117702894815776259.html

Well, that is an interesting link. Perhaps someone needs to create the "you are special red piano" to match the "you are special red dinner plate" they mention in the article.
It would be fun to have someone throw confetti when I finally get some of my pieces right. Hope it doesn't affect the piano action.

This discussion gives new meaning to the term sextet.

I guess something has to lighten things up ....

landorrano,

There are always cuts, where winners get prizes and others get nothing in the real world. Either competitions, auditions, entrance exams..ect. Wait, actually losers get something precious, too IF you have positive attitudes.

Kids are more resilient than parents think. They should be, right? Do you realize that no one wins all the time? I recommend you watch Jon Nakamatsu's "welcome to losers club" speech on Youtube. It's such a great lecture for everyone.


David a,

It seems that you made a wise choice that you don't judge competitions since you don't know what to look for! In competitions, aren't judges supposed to check basics like tempo, phrasing, dynamic, balance between two hands, note accuracy, pedaling etc (besides artistic parts)?

What do you do if your students want to do competitions? Do you send them to another teacher? What if your child wants to do it? Do you discourage them just because YOU don't like it?