Lots of opinions on this floating around out there. My hands are of small-moderateish stature. I have a 9th, which is good enough for me. The 1-2 span (perhaps the most important) is decent. My greater concern is the span between the other fingers (2-3, 3-4, 4-5). The muscles in the top part of my palm near those fingers are pretty tightly wound, and the proof of this came through actual measurements for a friend's doctoral project.

My teacher thinks attempting to manipulate the hand beyond early childhood years is, at best, a waste of time, and at worst, damaging. Some of my peers and colleagues seem to take a different approach (often on the advice of their own teachers) and religiously stretch their hands (through various gentle exercises) daily.

So what's your take? To stretch or not to stretch?

When I first started like 10 months ago, I couldn't reach an octave with my fingers, barely a 7th. Now I can easily play a 9th.
I didn't do any exercises, it just happened. lol

I don't think stretching is a bad idea, but how significant a difference can it make? I've always assumed that the gains are modest and finite; one might go from an unpredictable ninth, for example, to a secure and functional one—but not from a ninth to an eleventh.

Or perhaps I'm misunderstanding the potential to expand more than millimeters at most, and stretching is underrated. At the very least, the benefit may depend on individual physiology.

Steven

I think the downside of any intensive efforts to increase your stretch is much, much higher than any possible upside.

I would strongly say that your teacher is right. Forget worrying about your stretch.

Playing 10ths in stride is nice, otherwise? Don't do it.

Stretching as massage-like action to make you feel better is probably good. Doing anything to try to increase your reach is probably bad.

If you want a bigger reach on piano, the first thing to do is to start over with new parents.

I think that says it all, perfectly.

P.S. I would have added a smilie at the end of that last part.
But then again I would probably add smilies to funerals.....

As an adult restarting, I have noticed that playing itself has increased my stretch without anything additional (which I would avoid as dangerous). My efforts at getting serious about piano technique over the past 6 months have already led to accidental overshooting of an 8ve in the left hand. So in my case the (well into) adult hand can move. Then the brain seems to adjust to the new hand size and overshooting stops happening. Working on some pieces that have inner parts while the hand is stretched out seem to have the strongest effect on growing my stretch, just an obvious example would be trilling with 4 and 5 while playing an octave lower with the thumb.

Maybe with adults it only happens in the first year, and is a warming up of the stretch they already have rather than a fundamental change. Anyway, approach cautiously... Just my thoughts keeping in mind that I don't have experience of advanced piano technique.

Er, I kind of hand stretch. I do Harold Bauer's warm up exercises sometimes, and they do stretch the inner fingers. However, they're more for warm-up exercises than specifically stretching. I would say that they are safe to use. =)

Perhaps someone could find some medical article?

i don't know.. but I've always stretched my hands and they are very flexible.. i can reach a 9th with 1-3, 1-4 and 1-5 with both hands. I'm 53 and my hands don't seem to have been injured.

Horowitz' stretching exercise for the 4th and 5th fingers, thumb resting gently on the wood in front of the keys; slowly and decisively crawl up the keyboard:



Extremely effective, but I would never do it for more than a minute and a half a day, maybe three times a week.

I've been thinking of using this for other finger combinations, such as the all-important 2-5 stretch, starting with a seventh. And maybe 3-4 stretch, but I think that could be very dangerous. Best to do these only with guidance from a teacher.

Another Horowitz exercise, to be played slowly:



Adele Marcus' variation:




"Never to be done for more than 5 minutes a day". (Marcus)

For me, that would be never for more than one minute a day.


Mel

I have this problem big time (in both hands) with pieces that I first learned when I was in my teens and then didn't play for some years, even though I never gave up piano in the interim and even though my reach is only a little longer than it was then. I'm constantly over-reaching the octaves. It takes mega-work to undo it in those pieces.

My most natural reach is a 9th. That's part of why Scriabin feels so comfortable to me -- lots and lots of stuff built on 9ths.

IMO you don't have to wait for that.
Take our word.
It's unhealthy and dangerous to effortfully work on stretching your stretch.

But if you insist perhaps somebody could come up with something.

I think it's important to emphasize that Horowitz (presumably) wasn't aiming to increase his stretch with this exercise.

As finger strength improves so does the ability to manage the posture of the hand and therefore, I can play 10ths with "relative" ease when before I struggled with 9ths.

There are serveral accounts of some very famous pianists with very small spans not at all phased by huge stretches. A slight split is hardly noticable to the ear. Personally I focus on "illusion" and not stretching.

Just wanted to quote those great lines.

Well, De Larrocha famously did it, and without any apparent damage. I have heard she increased her span from barely an octave to a 10th.

I have no idea why so many here seem so against it. What's the problem? I actually have not heard of anyone here (or anywhere else, for that matter) injuring themselves by doing it, although obviously doing too much too fast could cause problems.

I did not know that!


Speaking for myself, it's because I feel that I have many indications that it's bad and none that it could be particularly good.

Sure, it would help on something like this if we had "data," or at least some examples of people hurting themselves from trying to do exactly this (although to me the latter wouldn't prove much).
But IMO it's sufficient to be going on general principles, and to take caution from examples and experiences that we feel are analogous.

You know about SCHUMANN? He ruined his hand. In fact I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned (at least not that I noticed). It wasn't from trying to increase his stretch, but to me it gets at the same principle. (He was using his own invented contraption to try to strengthen his 4th finger.)

And maybe most importantly, we know how it is when we over-challenge our hands physically in any which way -- and I guess I can't imagine an approach to "hand stretching" that wouldn't be 'over-challenging' the hand.

And finally, as has been said, it's not important enough to be worth what we feel is the risk.

Even with the De Larrocha example proving it can be done? I don't really see why stretching would be any different than any other developmental activity for a pianist's hands. You go slow, take it easy, and eventually the results show up. There's no need to "over-challenge". For me, the idea is to use a gentle nudge.



Except for those who feel it is important enough. I'm quite happy about the results I have had doing just a few Dohnanyi and Tagliapietra exercises that work on stretching, even if they haven't given me Rach-style hands. Just trying to maximize my flexibility as I age is enough, and stretching exercises will do that, without necessarily aiming at an increase in span. But, if I knew 40 years ago what I know now, I probably would actually have a wider hand now because I would have been started working on stretch a lot sooner. Of course, a lot of standard-issue stuff will do stretching too. Almost any etude on sixths, for example (and yes, they can injure the unwary and/or over-zealous, but that hardly means one shouldn't do them).

I had a student (not coincidentally, an enthusiastic adult with no piano experience) who did too much too fast, all on her own without telling me. She injured herself; I hope not permanently. It's really easy to go over that line. And the people who want to stretch tend to be the eager people who really WOULD do too much too fast. They are also the exact same people who would reassure everybody that they will not do too much too fast, because they're not the kind of person who would do that.

I could only span an octave in the beginning, now I can easily span a 9th. Unfortunately, there are pieces that require more than that, including a measure in Träumerei by Schumann, which otherwise is relatively easy (probably intermediate).

I'm glad you mentioned that, because I think it's a great example of why it's needless to make such a point of "stretching your stretch".....
IMO there aren't any chords in Traumerei that require a wide stretch. I can think of a couple that you might mean (one in the second phrase, one near the end). I happen to have a wide reach but I don't particularly use it on those chords, nor on anything else in the piece. Sure, someone with a wide reach could utilize it on those chords -- but it's far from necessary, and arguably disadvantageous to play the chords that way.

I have to admit that I'm so biased against this "stretching" idea that I can only approach something like that with doubts.
I would wonder exactly what she did, and what the results really were -- and whether the notion that you're expressing represents some misunderstanding or distortion (I don't mean intentional, of course). And, even assuming she did succeed in exactly what you're saying, I still wouldn't consider it any kind of argument for someone to follow, any more than I would think a Little League kid should try to do what Babe Ruth did. Or, to use maybe a closer example, that any other pianist should sit like Glenn Gould, not to mention behave like him.
Besides the generic fact that single examples don't tell us that something is a good idea (just that it's not impossible), the fact that a great pianist does some outlying thing doesn't mean it's something for anyone to follow.


NO PROBLEM with that. But I didn't get the idea that's what was being discussed here, and I would wonder if "gentle nudges" aren't any more than what happens through normal good practicing.


I'm not so sure.

Ditto to some of what I said up there.

Again, I acknowledge my bias.

I think the give-and-take in these last few posts well encapsulates the argument on the subject.

Yes -- that's perhaps an extreme example, but as a general matter it's exactly what concerns me on this.

Like some other adult beginners mentioned, my stretch more or less increased by itself, just by playing whatever I was playing. The first time I had to play octaves it really felt like an effort. But right now, after 2 1/2 yrs of playing a ninth is fairly easy, and I recently noticed I can actually reach a 10th with my right hand! My piano teacher told me that's a development that's rather common. And she even showed me that she herself is barely able to span more then an octave. And it apparently doesn't really affect her playing, which is beautiful, and looks smooth and effortless.

So I am not worrying about span. And whenever I come accross something that's hard to reach I have a teacher that knows a lot of ways to work my way around it.

Ingrid

Apart from Dannylux's exercises at the keyboard (and I wouldn't be worried about these, building up gradually) I don't know what streches ppl are doing. Are you just massaging the webbing with the other hand? Or something more?

Maybe Cherrycoke could describe some of the hand stretches her peers and colleagues do?

In a discussion of stretching, maybe it's useful to describe what exactly the stretching applies to.

In a thoroughly unscientific reduction of anatomy to its rudest essentials, our hands are meat and bones covered by skin. I take it for granted that bones don't stretch, and that it would be most unwise to pull meat from bone. Skin, however, does have the flexibility to stretch slightly and even the capacity to expand when subjected to regular tension.

Our handspan is widest when our fingers are fully extended laterally. Therefore, it seems a reasonable goal that the thumb and pinky of each hand be parallel (or nearly so) when the fingers are fully splayed. To achieve that, I don't think it's necessary to "stretch" anything but the webbing of skin between the fingers; to that extent, I can't see what the danger is from doing so.

I do flex and splay my hands and fingers routinely, especially between the thumb and index finger, and have done so for years.

Steven

Edit: Canonie, I was writing my message when you posted yours. Looks like we were having similar thoughts.

Thanks Steven, very helpful. I think flexing splaying and wiggling is probably pretty good. Some of my former (pre-music) activities stretched and moved the hands quite a bit. so maybe that kept them in good shape for returning to piano.

As far as "meat" is concerned, I think it is this meat you are stretching more than skin (meat =muscles). There are a lot of little muscles in the hand and stretching them wouldn't involve pulling meat off bone. It'd be rather like stretching a muscle in your leg (but smaller and more delicate). Active stretching without any props would be safest.

Two of the more advanced piano technic exercise books have stretching exercises.

Rafael Joseffy's "School of Advanced Piano Playing (Exercises)" has a section called "Stretches".

Josef Pischna's "Sixty Progressive Exercises" has some also, notably #29, #30, along with others.

Even Hanon has some mild ones, #20 opening fingers 2 & 4.

My hand has opened noticeably over the years doing these and other exercises, but my goal was not to increase my stretch, but rather just to play better. I always could play a 10th, but now I can do so and play chord notes easily within the 10th.

I have students who have mentioned that doing technique exercises, usually just Hanon, have increased their span.

Bottom line....Technical exercises, done correctly (I had the supervision of a technic-focused teacher), will greatly improve the hand's ability to play the piano, including more flexibility and agility, which is much more important than stretch, although greater stretch does seem to occur.

Physical stretching, using weights, rubber bands, etc, I would avoid like the plague.

Maybe it's like stretching before exercising, keeping in mind that the hands/fingers are lighter and (I think?) more tender/fragile than your arms or legs. At first, stretch just barely beyond what's comfortable and slowly build up.

I don't know though, I haven't looked into finger stretching too awfully much.

Hey
I've been playing the piano for a bit over 5 years and i can barely reach a 9th (by cheating). I'm not even able to play The Entertainer because of my mediocre handspan.
My teacher has assigned me some Brahms stretching exercises (some of the easier ones). I believe I am one of those who might try to push too hard and get injured.

So I'd like to know what kind of injury we are talking about. You know, people realise how dangerous smoking is by hearing of the consequences (cancer etc.). I'm not scared of injuries by overstreching, but I am conserned about not taking it as seriously as I should. I hope you understand what I mean, my english isn't that fluent.

Your English seems EXCELLENT! If not for that last line, I would not have suspected that it is not your main language!

Regarding what kind of injury: I would think, any kind of strain or sprain .....no specific thing but really anything.
I don't think we're talking about any greater level of injury like fractures or nerve damage.
We're talking (I think) about tendons and muscles.

But, strain/sprain can actually be worse in a way, because fractures (assuming they heal completely, which most do) do not leave you more vulnerable for the future, but strains and sprains often do.

Well, I said I can reach up to a 9th, and "there are pieces that require more than that". This stands, as Träumerei as a 10th towards the end...
Surely it doesn't look nice if you stretch and you should try to play as natural as possible, but if you can't you can't. And I CAN'T reach a 10th. I don't like to stretch by the way, I'd rather arpeggiate or play one octave higher or lower, depending on the case....

I have naturally very flexible hands--I'm one of those freaky people who can bend their thumbs to the wrist in 2 directions. It doesn't really give me much of an advantage on the piano because it probably brings me from being able to reach an octave to a tenth. You'll find that most pieces tend to stay within the octave handspan anyway (unless it's Brahmns or Rachmaninoff). Having super flexible hands is actually rather annoying because my finger joints are prone to collapsing, which makes playing pp tricky.

Don't you think that chord near the end of Traumerei should be ROLLED anyway? I sure do. And by the way you can take one or more of the high notes by bringing the left hand across.
Therefore I don't see how our "stretch" is any factor there.

If you mean this one in the antepenultimate measure, I don't like it rolled.



To me, this chord stands in contradistinction to others in the piece (cf. mm. 2 and 6) where rolling is explicitly written out with double appoggiaturas to the notes in the bass clef. The tenths here in each hand are larger intervals than before, and it's the climactic peak of the piece.

I think it's most effective when served straight up.

Steven

No, I don't think it should be rolled unless your hands really are too small for it. Moving the bottom G up an octave helps a lot for average size hands to play it it cleanly as a solid chord. The RH thumb can take two notes.

Putting aside the obvious question of why your adult student would going behind your back to do something harmful, I think it should be said that people injure themselves in many ways at the piano. There's a constant flow of threads about that sort of stuff in this forum, but I don't recall stretching exercises as being mentioned very often, if at all, as the source of a problem. Which is one reason I asked why there's so much negativity about them. I guess I should have framed the question as "what is so wrong with stretching exercises when done properly so as to avoid injury". I've actually injured myself more with Chopin's op. 10, no. 1 (which I don't see as a stretching exercise), than with his op. 25, no. 8 (which I do see as a stretching exercise).

Yup, that's the one.
I know that others would prefer it not rolled and might even hate it rolled.
But in any event I don't think chords like this contribute meaningfully to the argument in favor of hand-stretching.
Unless you really hate it rolled.

btw..... maybe unrelated but maybe not......I think there are even different versions of what the notes of this chord are.

P.S. HOW do you copy/paste a portion of a score like that????

I think it does, if only as just one example among many of the utility of being able to reach a tenth.

It's taken for granted that spanning an octave is a minimal prerequisite for playing piano beyond the beginner level, and it does suffice for most music.

Still, tenths do occur in standard repertoire, and it really is valuable, in my opinion, to be able to play them as written.

Steven

I wish I didn't have to roll (or break up or whatever) that chord, but I'm not close to being able to play it. Ninths are nice to have, maybe, I guess. Tenths, though - SO much you can do with a tenth!

Oh well.

Well that's what makes a horse race because I think I almost totally disagree on that.

Speaking as someone who can stretch a 10th easily and an 11th without much trouble, I honestly can't think of a single example of where I would regard stretching a 10th as being necessary.
9th? Absolutely. (I wouldn't be able to touch the Scriabin 9th sonata without 9th's.) (No pun intended.)

10th???? I can't really think of one. I imagine there are LOTS of examples that you feel would be applicable, and it's possible I'd agree on some of them if I could think of them.....

.......and to me it's the opposite.

Maybe I'm just 'soupy.'
I never thought I was particularly 'mannered' or 'sentimental' about 10ths but maybe I am......

Uh oh, I thought of an example.

Those ppp chords before the coda of Chopin's 4th Ballade.

Many people do roll them (esp. the first chord), I guess because they have no choice -- but IMO it's not good.
And I could almost say "bad."

I don't know that there's anything wrong with you - but I know I'm jealous of those who play 10ths easily.

Maybe the keys are just whiter on the other side of the fallboard.

I think you've just entered the next edition of Bartlett's Familiar Quotations

(......not that I even know what "fallboard" means but it's funny anyway)

Yes, I agree. I don't like it rolled either, but I have to roll it or leave out one note . Like you, I would prefer it straight up though.

Maybe we need another thread for "what's wrong with rolled chords."

It's that lid for the keys on a grand piano.

Well, right, bones aren't going to stretch. But besides, webbing, I think for many pianists the palm of the hand will also widen just a bit, since the structure across it is basically muscle and ligament, both of which can be lengthened by stretching. Simply working a lot on music containing the biggest stretches and extensions one can muster will eventually do this, I think, but one can deliberately stretch, too. It's not unlike yoga - people do not start out being able to sit in lotus pose or being able to bend over while standing, grab their ankles, and touch their head to their knees. But after some time of slowly and steadily working at lengthening their muscles and ligaments, they can.

I'd be interested in the stretching Cherrycoke talked about, too. IIRC, De Larrocha's technique (or one of them) was the one when you push your hand at the split between a pair of fingers against the opposite forearm, and then twist the hand 180 degrees back and forth. If the forearm isn't thick enough, you can use your leg right above the knee.

Another stretch I learned years ago in college was to insert one hand between a pair of fingers of the other and spread them as much as possible. Again, twisting the hand with the spread fingers helps.

I have trouble imagining injuring oneself doing these unless there was an application of a ridiculous amount of force.

My face just took on the expression of Munch's "The Scream."



And I, on the other hand, have trouble not imagining injuring oneself.
I guess you didn't injure yourself.
Good for you.
Really!
But this stuff you just described seems like abominable advice for anybody.

You seem oddly phobic about this issue.

I assume that most people have a rudimentary amount of common sense and know how to listen to their bodies, and so won't seriously mess themselves up by doing anything ridiculous (unless, of course, they have some neurotic need to be self-destructive, which is a whole separate issue).

If it feels comfortable, it isn't going to cause any harm. If it hurts or feels like one is doing something quite stressful, it very well might cause damage. I figure most people here know those basics.

Of course I do, to someone who believes in what you believe.
And of course I'm not, to someone who believes in what I believe.

And that's sort of a basic question here: Are people like me "oddly phobic" about it, or are people like you too blithely embracing of an unwise approach?

I guess I'm oddly phobic about this issue, too, but I think WR’s stretching exercises would have me confessing to heresy in no time.

The piano exercises to increase stretch by Dohnanyi, Hanon, et al. are OK if used wisely and in moderation. I don’t think it’s a question of “pushing too hard” as it is one of “pushing” at all. Like the ability to play fast, smooth scales, a wider stretch will come with time and mindful practice.

I do agree completely, and would find it surprising if most people here haven't done the kinds of stretching wr mentioned previously on their own.

I am not, by nature, a reckless person or a risk-taker, but my B.S. meter spikes in the face of admonitions not to do something to my body that common sense tells me is benign. That skepticism goes back to childhood, and some of the advice in this thread, too, harks back to the empty prudishness of Don't touch yourself there.

Steven

This chord is doable, in a pinch, with a workable tenth.
The left hand chord is almost perfectly shaped for the hand with the 5th and 4th taking the bottom notes.
In the right hand chord the thumb should squash the lower two notes with the 3rd finger taking the D.
For me, this chord is even easier than if they G weren't present since I'd have to *avoid* playing it while still hitting the lower F.
IMO, if you have a comfortable octave you are ready for a vast amount of music though 9ths and 10ths are sometimes useful.

Random musing:

A large span is useful when you *have* to play widespread solid chord or carry two lines that are widely spaced.
The first case is somewhat rare because crisp rolling of wide chords is often implied and even when it's not you can usually get away with it in the busy textures they sometimes appear in.
Some annoying examples of the second case sometimes pop up in Beethoven where you are forced to keep 1 and 2 close (maybe trilling) while playing a melody an octave away with 5 and 4.

It seems obvious but for arpeggios, tremolos, scales, etc. you never *need* a large span because you do not have to play those notes at once!
The proprotion of arm/wrist movement will be lesser when the passagework is 'close' (the definition of which depends on span) but wide passagework necesstates, not streatching, but better coordination.
Interestingly, scale, arpeggios and tremolos appear in a much larger proprotion of the piano repertoire than spans greater than an octave.
So given the relatively narrow benefit of having a large span and the fact that it is, for the most part, a physiological gift, I think that acquiring it should not be a priority.
Improvements, despite efforts, will be marginal so focusing on other things might give a better return on investment.

One case I think where working on stretches would be useful is if you span an octave with difficulty and do not expect your hand to grow.
Then you can spend time working on how to position your arm/wrist for playing them most reliably.
Otherwise, span will not be an issue for 95% (pulled from nowhere) of the music that'll be woth palying.

For the record, I max out at a white key 11th in the left and a white key 10th in the right, neither of which I'd like to play with any rapidity.
I'll admit that it's sometimes convenient that my left hand handles tenths with relative ease but I can't think of any situation where working around the 10th would have spoiled the piece.

I for one am beginning to come around to the idea that for those who are willing to be reasonable about it and not overdo it, stretching could be useful. What I would love to have is information about what kinds of stretches would actually have a useful effect - not for piano necessarily, just good ideas in general.

For me, the issue isn't one of need, but of ease in execution and maintaining as much flexibility as I can. But at any rate, I am not highly focused on it, it's just a small part (a very small part) of my general piano regimen, and it is there because I can actually feel the benefit.

Of course, for a person very small hands, like De Larrocha who did serious stretching because she felt she needed it, it's a different story.

No! No!!! No!!!!!! NOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!

Mark, I sincerely hope you are kidding here.

Yes -- if you mean in that post above yours, absolutely. (That's why I added the "ha-ha" smilie, to try to avoid any doubt.)

If someone wants to defect to the "dark side," that's his prerogative.

I realize that this is something on which people can and do have differing opinions.
Mine is just quite convinced and intense, that's all.

It's a thing of how we see the risk/reward ratio, and where we think it's sensible to draw the line on such things.

Oh, good. Just being certain.

You know the old saying about opinions...just like you-know-what, everybody has one! You are certainly entitled to yours.

There's another element critical to the analogy: everyone thinks somebody else's stinks.

Steven

True dat.

I just wonder about doing stretching exercises away from the piano. Could it be like lifting weights or squeezing rubber balls--it increases your strength, but doesn't really give you an advantage at the keyboard?

Hi all,

As one of the people here with a large hand span, I can't imagine what it's like to have to stretch to reach an octave. However this hand span increase happened over time, and is part of my anatomy. Having very long fingers in the first place with a broad palm was a genetic advantage I inherited from my mom's relatives. Even still I couldn't quite reach an octave comfortably until I was way into my teens, and only in the past couple of decades have I been able to stretch beyond that easily.

The biggest part of your handspan is between the thumb and the index finger. If you can slowly increase your spread between these two appendages, then you'll increase your handspan. What I have found most helpful for doing this are exercises that increase the flexibility in hands and fingers. There are many exercises for these techniques by famous people such as Schmitt, Czerny, Brahms, Phillip, and others.

The thing is, as Mark, Steven, and other have said here, don't over do it, and don't push too hard. You don't want to cause a permanent ligament injury, or pull a tendon in your hands.

Remember don't ever do anything that hurts or causes stiffness. Piano playing and practice should never hurt.

Do these exercises for only a few minutes at a time. Anything beyond this causes stiffness and you lose concentration anyway so you'll no longer benefit from anything you're trying to accomplish with these exercises.

John

Yes. Granting that your experience might not tell the whole story for people with smaller hands, I think that's completely on target.

Flexibility, absolutely. Stretching, please watch it.

No, it isn't the same. Stretching doesn't increase strength, at least not directly. It will increase flexibility and span. Of course, if you don't find any advantage in increased flexibility and span...

For those really really interested in what can be done to stretch your hand span:
http://gradworks.umi.com/33/22/3322867.html

I haven't downloaded this article, but the fact that there's a section discussing scaled-down keyboards kind of gives away the punchline.

If anyone confirms my suspicion, pls post.

If you want to play really big intervals with small hands take up the accordion.

i have always gently stretched my hands and enjoy excellent flexibility.. I can REACH but not play a tenth and i am rather small. I think my thumb can extend waaaaaaay in and I have always worked on fingers 1 - 2, 1- 3 and 1- 4. My pinky is very small..

so i think stretching helps.