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#1316949 - 12/02/09 06:27 PM Re: Fake book question [Re: knotty]
MiM Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/09/09
Posts: 543
Loc: Pennsylvania
I have a chord question if someone can help.

Eb G Bb is (of course) the Eb major chord.
Add c, and you get Eb6: Eb G Bb C

Now, C minor is: C Eb G
Add a Bb and you get Cm7: C Eb G Bb

If you do a first inversion of the Cm7, you get Eb G Bb C (which is Eb6). So, how is it possible that by inverting a chord you get an entirely different chord?

What am I missing, and does this happen with other chords?
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#1316978 - 12/02/09 07:15 PM Re: Fake book question [Re: MiM]
Swingin' Barb Offline
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Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Yes, it is the same chord. The name of the chord is derived from what we put in the bass.

If you put the C in the bass and add the Eb, G, and Bb, it is called a Cm7 chord.

Put the Eb as the bass note, and add the G, Bb, and C, it is called an Eb major6 chord.

Fun stuff, right? wink

Barb
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#1316979 - 12/02/09 07:16 PM Re: Fake book question [Re: MiM]
wavelength Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 340
Loc: Vermont, USA
You are not missing something-- you are perceiving something! laugh

They are practically the same chord, and one is often "substituted" for the other. It happens with many different chords. Any chords with the same relationship as those two-- like C6 and Am7 (maybe that's obvious?)-- but there are others too.

An offshoot of this idea is that if you play a C chord, it makes a good funky voicing for an Am chord! (especially if there's an A in the bass somewhere).

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#1316996 - 12/02/09 07:42 PM Re: Fake book question [Re: wavelength]
MiM Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/09/09
Posts: 543
Loc: Pennsylvania
I was going by the basic idea that inverting a chord does not change the chord, which I thought was neat, but now that inverting stuff can get you in trouble, I'm not sure what to think!
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#1317001 - 12/02/09 07:49 PM Re: Fake book question [Re: MiM]
MiM Offline
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Registered: 07/09/09
Posts: 543
Loc: Pennsylvania
What I meant by "inverting stuff can get you in trouble" is that learning chords becomes more troublesome...having overlapping chords is not as neat as a well-structured set of chords, but I guess that's how it is.
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#1317002 - 12/02/09 07:49 PM Re: Fake book question [Re: MiM]
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
MIM,

This is music, so, let your ears decide. Is this a fakebook tune or something you are composing? If you just play the melody in the right hand and the low bass note in the left hand, which sounds better to you -- the low Eb or the C?
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#1317009 - 12/02/09 08:03 PM Re: Fake book question [Re: Swingin' Barb]
MiM Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/09/09
Posts: 543
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: Swingin' Barb
MIM,

This is music, so, let your ears decide. Is this a fakebook tune or something you are composing? If you just play the melody in the right hand and the low bass note in the left hand, which sounds better to you -- the low Eb or the C?


I understand that Barb, but I'm trying to reconcile that with the "dictum" that inverting a chord does not change the chord. So whether you play a low Eb or a low C, you should "supposedly" get the same chord, so it shouldn't matter (to answer your question). No?
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#1317013 - 12/02/09 08:08 PM Re: Fake book question [Re: MiM]
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
I just did an experiment. I played all four notes in the right hand. C, Eb, G, Bb. I played it in different inversions. They all have the same sound.

Then, I did it a different way and played the root down low. My ears heard a different chord when the C is the root as opposed to the Eb as the root.

Now you try it and tell me what you think.
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#1317080 - 12/02/09 10:04 PM Re: Fake book question [Re: Swingin' Barb]
Exalted Wombat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 1194
Loc: London UK
Originally Posted By: Swingin' Barb
Yes, it is the same chord. The name of the chord is derived from what we put in the bass.

If you put the C in the bass and add the Eb, G, and Bb, it is called a Cm7 chord.

Put the Eb as the bass note, and add the G, Bb, and C, it is called an Eb major6 chord.

Fun stuff, right? wink

Barb




But if you put the G in the bass, it doesn't become a "G" anything. Or the Bb. The root needs to be the 1 of a 1,3,5 triad structure.

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#1317125 - 12/02/09 10:41 PM Re: Fake book question [Re: Exalted Wombat]
knotty Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2991
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
when you take a chord and isolate it, the bass is your best tool to find out which chord it is.

But more important is the context, what comes before, and after. So if you play
D F# C
then
D E G Bb

then to me, that is D7 followed by G-6

But by itself, the 2nd chord would be an E-7b5.

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#1317256 - 12/03/09 05:44 AM Re: Fake book question [Re: Exalted Wombat]
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: Exalted Wombat
But if you put the G in the bass, it doesn't become a "G" anything. Or the Bb. The root needs to be the 1 of a 1,3,5 triad structure.

Absolutely! My simplistic response was in reference to the OP's question regarding a Cm7 chord and an Ebmaj6 chord. We call it one chord when we put the C in the bass, and we call it another chord with the Eb in the bass.

Barb
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#1317281 - 12/03/09 06:48 AM Re: Fake book question [Re: Swingin' Barb]
MiM Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/09/09
Posts: 543
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: Swingin' Barb
I just did an experiment. I played all four notes in the right hand. C, Eb, G, Bb. I played it in different inversions. They all have the same sound.

Then, I did it a different way and played the root down low. My ears heard a different chord when the C is the root as opposed to the Eb as the root.

Now you try it and tell me what you think.


I tried a couple of different ways and I thought they sounded the same, and perhaps they should? If the inverted Cm7 chord is same as an Eb6, shouldn't they sound the same? Anyway, it's interesting and I'll do some more experimenting.
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#1317285 - 12/03/09 06:57 AM Re: Fake book question [Re: MiM]
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
When I play the low C bass note, and my right hand plays the Bb, Eb, and G (in any inversion), I hear a minor seventh chord.

When I play the low Eb bass note, and my right hand plays the Bb, C, and G (in any inversion), I hear a major sixth chord.

When I play all 4 notes together in one hand (C, Eb, G, Bb), I hear the same sound regardless of the inversion.

Have you done much ear training in the form of identifying chords? I tend to avoid the theory books and learn by "EAR".

Barb
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#1317293 - 12/03/09 07:10 AM Re: Fake book question [Re: Swingin' Barb]
MiM Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/09/09
Posts: 543
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: Swingin' Barb
...
Have you done much ear training in the form of identifying chords? I tend to avoid the theory books and learn by "EAR".

Barb


Not much ear training for chords, although I've seen online tools that test you for that... will do that once our days change to 30 or 40 hours per day instead of only 24 smile
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#1317298 - 12/03/09 07:24 AM Re: Fake book question [Re: MiM]
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: Music_in_Me
will do that once our days change to 30 or 40 hours per day instead of only 24 smile


You don't need anything fancy, or spend more than 2-3 minutes per day. Here is what I did:

Play a major chord. Close your eyes and listen to the sound.

Do the same for a minor chord.

Then, play one note at a time and sing those notes.

Do this for a week.

Then, have someone else play those notes for you and see how well you can identify the chords.

If all is going well, add the 7th for that major and for that minor chord.

Play, close your eyes and listen. Then sing.

Next, add the dominants, diminished and half diminished chords.

You are in no rush here. Just take it slowly. A couple of minutes every day will do the trick! thumb

Barb
_________________________
A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

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#1317323 - 12/03/09 08:06 AM Re: Fake book question [Re: Swingin' Barb]
peejay Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/10/09
Posts: 52
Originally Posted By: Swingin' Barb
Play a major chord. Close your eyes and listen to the sound.

Are you just going for the type of chord here, or both the chord and the key?

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#1317330 - 12/03/09 08:15 AM Re: Fake book question [Re: peejay]
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: peejay
Originally Posted By: Swingin' Barb
Play a major chord. Close your eyes and listen to the sound.

Are you just going for the type of chord here, or both the chord and the key?

I am going for chord quality only. Being able to tell the difference between a major/minor/dominant...etc.

The key is not important here.
_________________________
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"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com

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#1317876 - 12/03/09 08:15 PM Re: Fake book question [Re: Swingin' Barb]
MiM Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/09/09
Posts: 543
Loc: Pennsylvania
I'm practicing Top of the World by the Carpenters (a lovely song by the way), and I have the melody down flawlessly. The chords don't look too difficult, but I'm still not good at changing chords as quickly s I think I should. Anyone wants to try it and compare notes (no pun intended)?

Here is the score
Or browse here till you find it: http://pianotte.szm.com/T.htm


And here is a guy who plays it very well, and looking at his chords, he looks like he's playing all the chords as in the score.

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=ultimatecasper#p/search/0/KsLLlJH9L_A
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#1318087 - 12/04/09 07:35 AM Re: Fake book question [Re: MiM]
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
MiM -- I wasn't sure if you are asking for someone to analyze the chords, or, just read through the song.

I found the song in my pop fake book this morning. It's in the key of D. I just read through the first 16 measures. Here it is:

http://www.box.net/shared/0f2q23d1gm

I do take liberties with the rhythm of the melody as written. I play it the way I remember The Carpenter's singing it 2hearts

Barb
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#1318104 - 12/04/09 08:25 AM Re: Fake book question [Re: Swingin' Barb]
MiM Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/09/09
Posts: 543
Loc: Pennsylvania
You rock Barb! Or should I say you swing?

That's really good if you are playing it for the first time, which you are. I don't know what chords you played and whether they are the same sequence as in the sheet music I posted, but it is a little challenging for me (remember I just started playing chords I guess about a month or so ago) to switch chords on every note as in some of the measures.

What's the busiest cluster of chords you played in those 16 measures? What chords were they? By the way, if you just speed it a little bit it would sound just perfect.
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#1318113 - 12/04/09 08:40 AM Re: Fake book question [Re: MiM]
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Hey - thanks MiM. You are way too kind here. I played it through a couple of times before recording it. You really did NOT want to hear my first play through. eek

It is in a different key from the music you posted. What you posted is not in the leadsheet format that I prefer. I am allergic to books where the full score is printed out and then the guitar tabs are listed.

What do you mean when you ask "busiest cluster of chords"? Are these what you call "Full sounding" chords? You will hear some chords in the stride style. That is where I plunk the bass note and come up to the rootless 4 note voicing. So, I guess that would sound busy/full. Listen to it and you will hear that style in the first 2 chords.

More busy clusters would be when I voice in the right hand under the melody note. I sometimes break up those inner notes rhythmically. You will hear that at 5 - 8 seconds. For me, music is all about listening. Try to hear what I am doing chord wise.

Barb
_________________________
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"Color tones, can't live without them"

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#1318127 - 12/04/09 09:03 AM Re: Fake book question [Re: Swingin' Barb]
MiM Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/09/09
Posts: 543
Loc: Pennsylvania
Yes what I meant is how many chords per measure is there in your lead sheet? And then how did you play them? Some lead sheets are light and some are chord rich... I'm just learning the full chords ones, and they look interesting and a bit challenging, but I hope with practice they become second nature.
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#1318133 - 12/04/09 09:12 AM Re: Fake book question [Re: MiM]
Swingin' Barb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
A couple of measures have 2 chords. Most, only 1 chord. That's what I don't like about pop. The standards are more interesting chord wise.

If I were to work this one up, I would add sus4 chords to add some spice.
_________________________
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