Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Page 2 of 4 < 1 2 3 4 >
Topic Options
#1314203 - 11/29/09 03:03 AM Re: "Unlearning" bad habits [Re: Mark_C]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
It's obvious you have no idea what Chopin (or Bach for that matter) did for fingering.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


Top
(ads P/S)

Petrof Pianos

#1314204 - 11/29/09 03:04 AM Re: "Unlearning" bad habits [Re: keyboardklutz]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19644
Loc: New York
I think something else is obvious: You're kind of rigid in judging some things, including other people.

Top
#1314205 - 11/29/09 03:11 AM Re: "Unlearning" bad habits [Re: Mark_C]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Listen, post less - learn more OK?
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


Top
#1314207 - 11/29/09 03:13 AM Re: "Unlearning" bad habits [Re: keyboardklutz]
Passion Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 70
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Listen, post less - learn more OK?


keyboardklutz Online content
7000 Post Club Member

ha

Top
#1314208 - 11/29/09 03:14 AM Re: "Unlearning" bad habits [Re: Passion]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19644
Loc: New York
Thanks ha

Top
#1314210 - 11/29/09 03:21 AM Re: "Unlearning" bad habits [Re: keyboardklutz]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19644
Loc: New York
LOOK.
A post like this (i.e. mine).......

Originally Posted By: MarkCannon

I would bet that even Chopin would disagree with that.

I'd allow that an arguable exception would be the ETUDES. Arguably but not certainly.

But aside from that, I feel quite sure that composers (including Chopin, maybe especially Chopin) would realize that different people's hands are different, different people's abilities are different, PLUS......

Different interpretations might call for different fingerings. For that reason, even the composer might well have used different fingerings at different times, even in passages where fingerings are marked.

I get the feeling you and I might be disagreeing quite a bit.
But please don't take it personally. I sure won't. smile


......is no reason to tell someone that he basically doesn't know anything about the subject.

It's a DISAGREEMENT. That's all.
I think you're basically wrong, you think I'm totally wrong. But neither of us can claim to know "the one true way."

Top
#1314212 - 11/29/09 03:31 AM Re: "Unlearning" bad habits [Re: Mark_C]
Canonie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 1941
Loc: Australia
Sytadel, Pianists...
I wrote "By the way, fingering I leave as is." I had originally written "fingering I would leave as it is." Now I'm wondering why I changed it eek (often I read through at the end and delete a bit...).

So what I mean is that when you are teaching yourself and learning from Alfred's book one, using the fingering given is a pretty good idea smile I assumed that those who have been playing for a longish time would know that I was refering to the case of the OP. Being specific is always a good idea.

When I wrote that post I actually got out my copy of Afred's book1 and checked a few songs, and the fingering is fine. My comments and suggestions were considered, but it's up to you whether to use any ideas. So Sytadel I hope that helps wink Keep up the fast learning! O sol mio looks like a nice piece by the way.

And the debate is a reflection of the passion and interest of pianists here - I like it very much (even if it was an accident to spark this flurry). Oops
_________________________

Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it.
Alex Ross.

Top
#1314213 - 11/29/09 03:33 AM Re: "Unlearning" bad habits [Re: Canonie]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19644
Loc: New York
Well I certainly don't mind. smile

Top
#1314218 - 11/29/09 03:47 AM Re: "Unlearning" bad habits [Re: Passion]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Originally Posted By: Passion
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Listen, post less - learn more OK?


keyboardklutz Online content
7000 Post Club Member

ha
If it's of any interest I did my learning before my posting. (degree, performance diploma, teaching certificate.)
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


Top
#1314239 - 11/29/09 06:53 AM Re: "Unlearning" bad habits [Re: keyboardklutz]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19644
Loc: New York
I don't think you realize how 'funny' you're being.....

Top
#1314240 - 11/29/09 07:00 AM Re: "Unlearning" bad habits [Re: keyboardklutz]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19644
Loc: New York
P.S. I'll tell you what......
If my posts aren't enough to tell you that I don't deserve your attitude and comments, take a look at my Scriabin video (readily found via search on google or youtube) and see if I seem like someone who does.

Or, if you wish, you can simply take my word: I do not.

Top
#1314263 - 11/29/09 08:51 AM Re: "Unlearning" bad habits [Re: keyboardklutz]
kevinb Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 1565
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
It's obvious you have no idea what Chopin (or Bach for that matter) did for fingering.


I'm pretty sure I don't, and I'm pretty sure I don't care all that much. I'm 6'5" tall and have fingers like pork sausages. I have very little reason to think that fingering suggestion, even by Bach or Chopin, would be workable.

I'm not even sure that note values should be sacrosanct. I'm mostly interested in baroque music, and I'm aware that composers often wrote in a way other than they performed. A textbook example example is writing pairs of even quavers beamed together, because it was quicker than writing the dotted rhythms that a particular style called for. The composer would have expected performers of the age to know the conventions of the genre and interpret accordingly.

These days it takes considerably expertise to interpret music of this era as written, and most of us rely on the good offices of pushlishers and editors to translate into a more modern representation. But there seems to be quite a bit of disagreement, and it's hard to be sure that we're playing what the original composer intended. Consequently, being too stuffy about this sort of thing might well be a waste of effort -- however well-intentioned.

Top
#1314401 - 11/29/09 01:08 PM Re: "Unlearning" bad habits [Re: kevinb]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19644
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: kevinb
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
It's obvious you have no idea what Chopin (or Bach for that matter) did for fingering.


I'm pretty sure I don't, and I'm pretty sure I don't care all that much. I'm 6'5" tall and have fingers like pork sausages. I have very little reason to think that fingering suggestion, even by Bach or Chopin, would be workable.


Yes -- someone like you is a clear example of how what that guy said is just overly rigid. I myself have a slight physical issue about my hand that limits certain normal or prescribed fingerings and sometimes enables odds ones, so I'm somewhat in your boat. And of course people who don't have any 'anatomical' issue might also well choose different fingerings from those marked by the composer, and legitimately so.

I don't disagree that there's much to learn from a composer's indicated fingerings, on both technique and the intended/implied musicality. I would agree with the other poster to the extent that we shouldn't ignore such indications; we should study them carefully and thoughtfully. But in my opinion it is wrong and frankly a little scary to go so far as to say that they are sacrosanct.

Quote:
I'm not even sure that note values should be sacrosanct. I'm mostly interested in baroque music, and I'm aware that composers often wrote in a way other than they performed. A textbook example example is writing pairs of even quavers beamed together, because it was quicker than writing the dotted rhythms that a particular style called for. The composer would have expected performers of the age to know the conventions of the genre and interpret accordingly. These days it takes considerable expertise to interpret music of this era as written..... there seems to be quite a bit of disagreement, and it's hard to be sure that we're playing what the original composer intended. Consequently, being too stuffy about this sort of thing might well be a waste of effort -- however well-intentioned.


YES.
I think the way you word the first sentence will outrage some people, but they perhaps will feel differently as they go on. An old teacher of mine, Malcolm Bilson, has a lecture and DVD (called "Knowing the Score") where he talks a lot about things like what you just said. As he says it, sometimes playing the music in what seems like a literal and correct way might actually be not following it; we need to understand the composer and the style to know what the score really "says." I would also bring up my somewhat odd view on the intended rhythm of the last movement of Bach's E minor Partita, but I'm afraid that would give one or two people here a nervous breakdown. smile


Edited by MarkCannon (11/29/09 01:10 PM)

Top
#1314407 - 11/29/09 01:19 PM Re: "Unlearning" bad habits [Re: Mark_C]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Originally Posted By: MarkCannon
But in my opinion it is wrong and frankly a little scary to go so far as to say that they are sacrosanct.
Sorry if you got a little frightened there but you guys just don't get fingering do you? And I actually said 'close to sacrosanct'.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


Top
#1314420 - 11/29/09 01:36 PM Re: "Unlearning" bad habits [Re: keyboardklutz]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19644
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Originally Posted By: MarkCannon
But in my opinion it is wrong and frankly a little scary to go so far as to say that they are sacrosanct.
Sorry if you got a little frightened there but you guys just don't get fingering do you? And I actually said 'close to sacrosanct'.

Yes -- as I look back, indeed you did. Sorry!
Obviously I differ from your basic orientation on this and I think you're doing a couple of us an unfair disservice in how you view us, but I'm very sorry for the misquote.

I agree that "close to sacrosanct" is quite different from just sacrosanct. BUT......I hope you realize that even just using the word sacrosanct at all conveys a certain kind of orientation -- and that's what I reacted to.

Top
#1314425 - 11/29/09 01:39 PM Re: "Unlearning" bad habits [Re: Mark_C]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
I'm not sure what composers we're talking about anyhow. Chopin's the only one I know who left fingering that, and two pieces by Bach (though CPE and Couperin are a treasure trove).
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


Top
#1314432 - 11/29/09 01:43 PM Re: "Unlearning" bad habits [Re: Mark_C]
david_a Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 2913
Nobody knows which fingering is Chopin's own. This includes the lucky (unlucky?) people with first-hand access to his manuscripts.

He used many if not most of his manuscripts for teaching purposes, and teaching means dealing in some way with the idiosyncrasies of a particular student or students. It's quite likely that much of the fingering Chopin wrote has nothing to do with his own performance, but was a special compromise for some clumsy or opinionated student. Chopin also was in an essentially constant state of desperate score revision trying to get things sent off to the publishers so he could earn some money, and in very many cases he was unable to make up his mind even about what the correct notes were, let alone the piddling matter of fingering.

SOME of the fingerings in Chopin's music are brilliant and indispensable, demonstrating important general principles at the same time. Others are merely one useful possibility, and demonstrably not the best one.

Good pianists and scholars have had a lot of time, something Chopin never had, to figure this stuff out.

I would NEVER erase a fingering written by Chopin, for any reason. But I would certainly question it, and sometimes write a better fingering, in pencil, beside it.
_________________________
(I'm a piano teacher.)

Top
#1314439 - 11/29/09 01:49 PM Re: "Unlearning" bad habits [Re: david_a]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Moi aussi!
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


Top
#1314870 - 11/30/09 03:40 AM Re: "Unlearning" bad habits [Re: keyboardklutz]
kevinb Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 1565
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Originally Posted By: MarkCannon
But in my opinion it is wrong and frankly a little scary to go so far as to say that they are sacrosanct.
Sorry if you got a little frightened there but you guys just don't get fingering do you? And I actually said 'close to sacrosanct'.


Just how much wiggle-room is there between `sacrosanct' and `close to sacrosanct' ? I'm generally grateful for those composers and editors who give fingering indications, because nine times out of ten they work fine, even for my huge, clumsy hands. But that other time they don't work at all.

Is nine times out of ten `close to sacrosanct?' Or is there more to it than that?

I probably don't `get' fingering, as you say. I always thought that the purpose of fingering was to get nice sounds to come out of the piano, but perhaps there's more to it than that.

Top
#1314874 - 11/30/09 03:52 AM Re: "Unlearning" bad habits [Re: kevinb]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19644
Loc: New York
Of course I'm with you.
For the sake of peace I gave him the benefit of the doubt on that distinction. smile
And anyway I figured a misquote is a misquote, so I was doing a little penance too......

Top
#1314886 - 11/30/09 04:32 AM Re: "Unlearning" bad habits [Re: kevinb]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Originally Posted By: kevinb

Is nine times out of ten `close to sacrosanct?' Or is there more to it than that?
That's good enough for me and certainly not 'serving suggestions', cute though the analogy may be.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


Top
#1314971 - 11/30/09 10:07 AM Re: "Unlearning" bad habits [Re: keyboardklutz]
Morodiene Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11416
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
I think much can be learned from fingering suggestions, and I will usually go by them as well, unless they just don't work for me. I have no trouble scribbling out a fingering, whether it be Bach's, Chopin's, or the editor's. If their fingering hinders my ability to play, then it makes no sense to try and do it their way. I feel the same about distribution of notes between the hands. Sometimes the other hand can play the notes better/easier. Kevin is right, the goal it to be able to play the music well, not adhere to fingering. I'm not saying it's all bad, but one has to take into consideration their own hand size and facility.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

Top
#1315027 - 11/30/09 11:53 AM Re: "Unlearning" bad habits [Re: Morodiene]
jotur Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 5441
Loc: Santa Fe, NM
kbk - 7191 posts in 2 years + 8 months (rounding here) ~ 225 posts/per month, averaged.

MC - 653 posts in less than one month.

Just thought I'd give another perspective on the "number of posts" thing. I'll leave "average number of posts per day" as an exercise for the student (as the joke about math teachers goes).

smile

Cathy
_________________________

Top
#1315113 - 11/30/09 01:31 PM Re: "Unlearning" bad habits [Re: jotur]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Last time I exercised my maths brain MC was going at a rate of 30 a day. By my calculator now gone up to 34.8!

Well, now that my calculators out - that david_a is a nice bloke I'm sure, but 21 posts a day? To my measly 7.4? Is there some new generation of super-poster arriving? Or is it the recession?


Edited by keyboardklutz (11/30/09 01:49 PM)
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


Top
#1315133 - 11/30/09 02:07 PM Re: "Unlearning" bad habits [Re: keyboardklutz]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19644
Loc: New York
I think my posts at least tend to be more interesting and music-related than those math ones. smile

Top
#1315161 - 11/30/09 02:33 PM Re: "Unlearning" bad habits [Re: Mark_C]
jotur Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 5441
Loc: Santa Fe, NM
Originally Posted By: MarkCannon
I think my posts at least tend to be more interesting and music-related than those math ones. smile


Why, thank you smile

Cathy
_________________________

Top
#1315166 - 11/30/09 02:36 PM Re: "Unlearning" bad habits [Re: jotur]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19644
Loc: New York
any time wink

Top
#1315172 - 11/30/09 02:43 PM Re: "Unlearning" bad habits [Re: Mark_C]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Originally Posted By: MarkCannon
I think my posts at least tend to be more interesting and music-related than those math ones. smile
I wouldn't bet on it.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


Top
#1315179 - 11/30/09 02:52 PM Re: "Unlearning" bad habits [Re: keyboardklutz]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19644
Loc: New York
I won't join you in the 'personal' stuff.

Top
#1315181 - 11/30/09 02:54 PM Re: "Unlearning" bad habits [Re: Mark_C]
Passion Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 70
Originally Posted By: MarkCannon
I think my posts at least tend to be more interesting and music-related than those math ones. smile


I agree, they are.

Top
Page 2 of 4 < 1 2 3 4 >

Moderator:  BB Player, casinitaly 
What's Hot!!
LAST CALL - Piano Newsletter Ideas!
-------------------
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Knabe Pianos
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Who's Online
124 registered (36251, accordeur, AndresD, ando, 38 invisible), 1563 Guests and 17 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
75498 Members
42 Forums
156123 Topics
2292626 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Halloween Fantasy
by Axtremus
15 minutes 1 second ago
Visited Yamaha's Flagship Store Today
by biasa199
17 minutes 58 seconds ago
Tag!
by Axtremus
18 minutes 30 seconds ago
Things are not working out for me
by Teodor
26 minutes 8 seconds ago
UVI has a sale on 5 grand piano sounds
by Morodiene
40 minutes 3 seconds ago
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission