Hi, I'm considering purchasing a Baldwin L1 tomorrow and I want to know if you folks think it's a good price. It's from a dealer and it is two years old. It's certified. It's satin ebony. He has gone down to $24,000 with a 5 year warranty. Do you think I could do much better?

Thanks a lot
Jeremey

What exactly does "certified" mean? That's not a term that is used often in the piano industry. Do you mean used? If so, did you hire a technician to inspect the instrument before you pay $24,000?

How do you like the way it sounds and feels? Has it been prepared to its full potential by the selling dealer? Keep in mind, you're buying the piano, not the deal.

To compare this to the equivalent new instrument, try visiting www.pianobuyer.com to see what a new Baldwin costs, and what may be a good deal on one.

Thanks. Yes, it is used. The salesman says it's certified, meaning they will provide a warranty and attest that it's in like new condition and there are no known issues with it... maybe it's purely for the sales pitch. I love the piano and the way it sounds. I have not hired a technician. Do you think I should given that it comes with a warranty and is being sold by a very reputable shop? They are offering me a new one for 27,500. According to pianobuyer, the smp on the new ebony polish is 34,800. The one for 27,500 is polish and the used one for 24,000 is satin, which when new is $1500 less than the polish.

Assuming both instruments are equally good (for the sake of argument), I think that the used one should be discounted just a bit more compared to the new one for 2 reasons:

It's used - a couple years of wear has taken place (the tech inspection will tell you how much).
The warranty is through the store, not the manufacturer. This is perceived as less valuable to the consumer.

I would make my best deal on the used one, subject to satisfactory inspection by an independent tech, if you really like this particular piano. I like to think I know a lot about pianos, but with that amount of money "in play", I would defer to a professional to give me a second opinion. For the record, I have very little playing time on the Gibson-era Baldwins so take my $.02 with a grain of salt...

A slightly used piano is better in the sense that you don't have to put up with the action settling and the strings stretching. If you like it better then...BONUS. You might like it better because it sounds broken in.

I also agree the discount for it being used seems a bit small. I guess it might make sense if it is very lightly used for, say, a year. That seems like a negotiating point where you may be able to do better.

You certainly haven't sent up any red flags indicating you're getting ripped off. If you like the instrument then it all seems ballpark reasonable to me.

The best used piano money that you can spend is that spent for a prepurchase inspection by an experienced tech who has no affiliation with the seller.

The discount for the used one is too small.

It's a buyers market.

I think the dealer is playing games with you... FWIW, I saw a new SF-10 for $35,000 in Chicago.

What do you mean? What kind of games?

I don't see any games here. The pianos are very nice pianos, with comnpariable pianos selling for very much more in other brands. The only reason for such low prices is the changes going on with Baldwin. They moved most of there manufacturing to China, have Gibson as the newer owner, etc. They lost many dealers due to overpricing of stock and now are having to rebuild dealer networks. All this led to many dealers dumping pianos a few years ago at very low prices. This means great bargains for buyers.

I would have the pianos checked by a very good independant tech because you want to know that the pianos have no production issues which are quality issues but not warranty issues. Hand made pianos including Steinway, and some other brands have quality issues in some pianos. (So do cars whether they are expensive or not.) (If the piano you like has a quality issue have it fixed or ask for a lower price.)

I do not know of any other brand of artist quality piano which can be bought for this low price. If you like one, and it checks out to your satisfaction, then don't hesitate to buy it. And you cannot really compare Baldwin prices from afar. A lower priced piano far away may not be of the same quality and likely not have the very important dealer preparation and service that you should value very highly. So that is my "sales advice" which I really believe.

And enjoy your new piano for many years.

I can't comment much on the prices but compared to the new model, although I think the used one would normally be sold at a greater discount. On the other hand, maybe new Baldwins were selling for more a few years ago then today. I never heard of a dealer "certifying" it was used but in like new new condition, although private sellers often claim this. I've heard dealers call a piano "slightly used".

Do you know what kind of situation ot was used in? If it checks out with an independent tech(not so easy to find one truly in this category)and you like it a lot, I wouldn't worry too much about whether or not it could be bought for a little less. Do you prefer the sound of the used Baldwin to the newer one?

I agree with basically everything Gary at Encore said.

Even though those could be advantages, I don't see anyone selling one or two year old pianos for the same as new ones. Pianos depreciate the most in the first few years.

They're asking too much money for it compared to prices of other Baldwins on the market, IMO.

I can't find any 1-15 year old Baldwin Ls for sale. Which Baldwins are you referring to, Beethoven986? BTW, I asked again about certified. It means the piano was sent back to Baldwin for inspection and any necessary changes to make it like new.

I would be wary of this piano, then. It almost sounds as though it was returned to Baldwin as defective, patched up, and resold as recertified like they do with defective returns on electronics.

I've never heard of sending a piano back to the manufacturer after only two years unless there is something wrong with it. I would ask the dealer exactly why it had to be sent back to the factory and what work was done.

Perhaps some of the dealers can comment on this situation.

I wasn't necessarily referring to Baldwin Ls. When I say this, I'm taking other sizes into account as well. A more appropriate price would be $22,000 if you go off the piano depreciation schedule in the Piano Book.

This doesn't need to be any more complicated than it is starting to sound. A two-year old Baldwin L1 is a used piano ONLY if it has ever been sold to a consumer (there are plenty of dealers around the country with new grands (of all brands) that have been sitting on their floor for two or more years and those pianos are still BRAND NEW, regardless of the actual date of manufacture. Having been a Baldwin regional sales manager for many years (both before and since Gibson), I can verify that the price you have been quoted is very attractive. MSRP on that size piano is in the $50K range, and while its true that some dealers have either closed or been terminated by Baldwin, the actual wholesale prices don't decrease. Therefore, this piano has been discounted to a very reasonable price, compared to similar hand-crafted grands in that size (Steinway model A, Mason & Hamlin AA, Charles Walter 190). If your tech doesn't find any problems and you like the way it feels and sounds, it should be a good piano for you.

IMO, your reasoning does not apply to this piano, especially in this market.

Well, beethoven 986, since you may very well be the beacon of truth in this situation, the buyer (jcharbo) could easily make a bonafide offer of $22,000 for the piano, based on all the other Baldwins out there at similar low prices. The seller then has two choices: accept the offer or stick to his original price (or negotiate somewhere in between). If both parties are serious about making a deal, they will find a common ground. I guess we will have to wait and see the outcome.

I hope I'm wrong because that means I should lower the price of my rebuilt model C I do agree that Baldwins are undervalued, and the piano should cost more, but I don't think things will be the way they were for a long time... if ever.

Why are you trying to sell your rebuilt model C Baldwin? don't mean to hijack this but you haven't had it all that long, correct?

I've had it for 6 or 7 years. It's a great piano, but I want to upgrade to a concert grand. The current plan is to either buy a core piano and have it restored, or buy a used one in good condition. I'm leaning towards the latter at the moment since it is difficult to justify spending even $1,000 on a core and tens of thousands on restoration when 10-20 year old Baldwin SD-10s are practically being given away. Of course, this only works if I can sell my Baldwin... easier said than done

Perhaps if you discounted it more....

ok, good luck!

Yeah... I probably will lower the price again. Unfortunately, I won't be able to afford said new piano if I lower it much more.

Thanks!

Hmmm. If some dealers lower their price even more, they won't be able to pay the rent.

Beethoven should find the SD10 he wants and see if he can trade in his rebuilt model C for it, rather than trying to sell it himself. Dealers are much better equipped to sell a used piano like his, being able to service it, deliver it, and provide financing for any prospective buyer.

i remember looking at an SD10.. at a very attractive price and considering trading in my husband..

Does he do windows?