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#1314455 - 11/29/09 02:05 PM People hear with their Eyes and their Skin
theJourney Offline
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Quote:

We hear with our ears, right? Yes, but scientists have known for years that we also hear with our eyes. In a landmark study published in 1976, researchers found that people integrated both auditory cues and visual ones, like mouth and face movements, when they heard speech.

That study, and many that followed, raised this fundamental question about speech perception: If humans can integrate different sensory cues, do they do so through experience (through seeing countless speaking faces over time), or has evolution hard-wired them to do it?

A new study that looks at a different set of sensory cues adds to a growing body of evidence that suggests such integration is innate. In a paper in Nature, Bryan Gick and Donald Derrick of the University of British Columbia report that people can hear with their skin.
...
“What’s so persuasive about this particular effect,” he added, “is that people are picking up on this information that they don’t know they are using.” That supports the idea that integrating different sensory cues is innate.
... “we are these fantastic perception machines that take in all the information available to us and integrate it seamlessly.”

This should really get under the skin of those who claim that performances are only about what reaches our ears...

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#1314463 - 11/29/09 02:15 PM Re: People hear with their Eyes and their Skin [Re: theJourney]
Mark_C Offline
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I enthusiastically agree with your basic point -- I'm a vociferous arguer about the importance of the other-senses experience of a performance -- but it looks to me like what they're talking about might be as much semantics as science.

For example (and recognizing that what you quoted must be just a tiny encapsulation of what they did), take this thing:

Quote:
.....researchers found that people integrated both auditory cues and visual ones, like mouth and face movements, when they heard speech.

First reaction: "D'oh" ha
Of course that is so.
But should we call it part of the "hearing," what we get from observing the mouth and face movements?
I wouldn't. I'd call it helping our brain make sense of what we're hearing.

But in terms of practical implication for music, it doesn't much matter: those non-auditory things most definitely contribute to the experience. The way we dress, the way we look and move, and yes, whether we're using the score or playing from memory. Plus of course the setting.
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#1314466 - 11/29/09 02:20 PM Re: People hear with their Eyes and their Skin [Re: theJourney]
Mark_C Offline
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P.S. My guy Scriabin made it explicit by adding lights and colors to the music. Plus it seems he was .......what's the word, synesthetic?
[.....goes to look it up......]

Yes....this from Wiki:
"Synaesthesiae....is a neurologically based phenomenon in which stimulation of one sensory or cognitive pathway leads to automatic, involuntary experiences in a second sensory or cognitive pathway."

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#1314489 - 11/29/09 02:45 PM Re: People hear with their Eyes and their Skin [Re: Mark_C]
david_a Offline
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Interesting that we take in sound information through our skin.

But what are we supposed to do, now that we know it?

More moisturizer for better Beethoven? Wash stations in concert hall lobbies? smile
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#1314491 - 11/29/09 02:46 PM Re: People hear with their Eyes and their Skin [Re: Mark_C]
keyboardklutz Offline
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That explains why a harsh touch causes the performer to hear a harsh sound.
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#1314541 - 11/29/09 03:43 PM Re: People hear with their Eyes and their Skin [Re: keyboardklutz]
ProdigalPianist Offline
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1-This goes a long way toward justifying why I get very little pleasure from recorded music...especially thru headphones, and so much pleasure from being in the same space as acoustic instruments.

2-it's not clear (at least from the quoted section in the OP, that visual cues are as important in music as they are in spoken communication. The first cue I had hearing loss was when I could only understand people when I was facing them. It's a no brainer that most of us lipread much more than we're aware.
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#1314572 - 11/29/09 04:31 PM Re: People hear with their Eyes and their Skin [Re: keyboardklutz]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
That explains why a harsh touch causes the performer to hear a harsh sound.

Yes, and also.....even though many people say that "touch" per se doesn't make any difference in the sound -- i.e. all that matters is the speed of the hammer -- I've become a believer that it does matter, even aside from this additional visual aspect.

I've recently worked a lot on making sure to strike keys "from the key" (i.e. with the finger already on the key surface), rather from up in the air, which I did all too often. Maybe it's just imagination at work, but I feel pretty sure that there is a significant difference in the actual sound. Maybe it's something about the flow rather than the sound of each individual note, but I do believe it's "something."

P.S. Sorry again about the misquote on the other thread. In any event I think we did an okay job getting past the difficult stuff.

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#1314587 - 11/29/09 05:01 PM Re: People hear with their Eyes and their Skin [Re: Mark_C]
david_a Offline
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"Touch" on one isolated note doesn't exist, and on that one isolated note all that matters is the speed with which the hammer hits the string. (excluding any whacking noise of finger bone on the key, which it would be nice to minimize I agree) But as soon as you play two or more notes together, and/or two or more notes in succession, then the way you grade them relative to each other makes the music sound different. That's why you're talking about "flow" - it's how your notes vary relative to each other that constitutes your "something".
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#1314644 - 11/29/09 06:46 PM Re: People hear with their Eyes and their Skin [Re: david_a]
Andromaque Offline
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We hear with our brain. The ears are mere sound conduits. The brain integrates the sound (with other simuli) and provides the "interpretation". When you think of it this way, people's intuitive experiences and experiments as described in these threads make very good sense.

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#1314661 - 11/29/09 07:22 PM Re: People hear with their Eyes and their Skin [Re: Andromaque]
Piano*Dad Online   content
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Some judges at competitions seem to hear through their eyes. Yes, yes, I like competitions, and I don't want to get into that one here, but at a recent one my son's teacher truly enjoyed ripping up (shredding, actually) one judge's comments and criticisms that were based largely on wanting him to move and emote more with physical body motions.

(the other judge suffered no such issues, however. She was quite content to use her ears and read the score.)
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#1314716 - 11/29/09 09:05 PM Re: People hear with their Eyes and their Skin [Re: Piano*Dad]
PartyPianist Offline
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This is probably right and those wishing to perfect high level technique certainly attempt to factor every plausible derivative. For me "chi" is a very important part of performing. Therefore the whole body and its reaction to everything around it and vice versa is the absolute for complete performance awareness.
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#1314719 - 11/29/09 09:09 PM Re: People hear with their Eyes and their Skin [Re: Piano*Dad]
Horowitzian Offline
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Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
Some judges at competitions seem to hear through their eyes. Yes, yes, I like competitions, and I don't want to get into that one here, but at a recent one my son's teacher truly enjoyed ripping up (shredding, actually) one judge's comments and criticisms that were based largely on wanting him to move and emote more with physical body motions.

(the other judge suffered no such issues, however. She was quite content to use her ears and read the score.)


That's why I think it might not be a bad idea to follow a similar protocol to orchestra auditions. The competitor (or better yet, the judges) would be behind a screen to prevent silliness like that. Stage presence is important, but I think letting the music do the talking is a better course of action.
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#1314771 - 11/29/09 10:45 PM Re: People hear with their Eyes and their Skin [Re: Horowitzian]
Jeff Clef Offline
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"...my son's teacher truly enjoyed ripping up (shredding, actually) one judge's comments and criticisms that were based largely on wanting him to move and emote more with physical body motions..."

So that's where some of this excess is coming from. I knew it was those judges. Back at the time of the Cliburn, there was a whole spate of posts describing performers "emoting more." It's the funniest thing I've seen here in a while, except for the "Let's Talk Weddings" thread on Non-Classical. If the performers could have seen descriptions of themselves, such as "She was grunting like a weight-lifter," maybe they would have thought a second time. Or bought a mirror.

Anyway, I know that I can sense the piano through my skin as I play. I feel the vibrations with my hands; it's kind of wonderful. And anyone who has gotten to listen in person to a pipe organ concert, where the performer has pulled out all the stops and damned the torpedos, knows. And anyone who has been to a rock concert... and maybe a symphony.

Ah, here it is. Snips from the thread I mentioned:

"She was drenched in sweat, her hair and dress clinging to her body, grunting like a weight lifter. I had to close my eyes.

At the climax, when one of his hands is free, he looks up into the air and does a motion with his hands.

Then he said and whatever you do, do not look in her direction her face is horrid because of the contortions.

He needs to lay off the bubble gum

His movements remind me of someone with Tourette's Syndrome, chorea, or some other tic. Other than that he plays really well.

There will always be Liszts and Chopins in this world, one group hamming, the other not

then watch Lang Lang, and you will see how things have deteriorated.

I am not sure how eyebrow motion, swinging waists and hair tossing improve sound making?

He wasn't such a "big name" for the judges however...There's a difference between being a big name for good reasons and being one for bad reasons. He may have been a big name on the blog, but I doubt any of the judges cared about what the bloggers said or even read the blog.

I'd bet she's knows about her facial expressions and doesn't much care.

Yes! The swimming movements! A girl I met in college was actually taught the swimming motions and while there, I tried to copy them but felt odd doing so crazy

I am not talking about hand over hand at the keyboard. This motion was done away from the keyboard, off to the side, upon completing a phrase, if this makes sense.

beside Bozhanov, i did find Zhang's facial expressions distracting sometimes, and Deljavan's even worse. actually, i wonder when they watch their own videos, how would they feel about themselves? do they find themselves looking good there? that's the mystery i'd like to know.

I've been to recitals where it looks like the students have had swimming lessons rather than piano lessons based on their arm and head movements!

I call the modern style of performance the S&M School of Piano Playing, for Swaying and Mugging ... the motions are getting so extreme, that music reviewers are now mentioning this problem in their articles.

To remain absolutely still in the presence of music is unnatural. Those who do not care to watch pianists swaying can always close their eyes.

I don't care if it's an act or natural. Teachers need to put an end to all the theatrics, swaying, grand arm movements, etc as soon as they see them. It looks ridiculous and is distracting.

I thought the young admittedly talented boy playing the Chopin Op. 55 Nocturne looked downright silly, as though he were intending a parody of some other pianist.

I'll stomp my feet to the rhythm, sway, do a little jig from the bench

the "magical arm waving and head shaking" school of piano playing ...seems more contrived than genuine especially at the very young age some of them are using it ... as if somehow doing these things will either magically produce the right sound or distract the audience from the actual playing!

Nothing much else is right - the guy didn't even shave properly.

If you want to pay to see him or buy his recordings, go right ahead. I don't see the harm in heavy metal or 8-year-old alligator tamers either.

The fact that he calls himself "pianocircus" makes me think it's contrived.

There must be so many children who do have an innate feeling for music who don't have the chance to learn piano, and the system throws up a robot in a shiny suit. This system is broken, and the stupid swaying and iguana faces are a symptom of that.

The amount of sweat that pours off of Boris Berezovsky's face is entertaining beyond any Lang-Lang style piano theatrics.

That doesn't make much sense. They are on a stage performing a piece, they are already the center of attention.

My wife pointed that out, too - likened it to a prancing pony.

Then, after the final chord, he just stayed there with his eyes closed and leaning backwards for a long period f time. I wanted to yell "Wake up" but I didn't have the nerve.

I don't find it hilarious; whether it's "natural" or contrived, I find it quite disturbing.

I guess I can ask the question in simplified form: Are there pianists today that do not shake their heads "no" while playing? And why did Rubinstein and Horowitz not shake their heads "no"

She becomes very animated toward the end of this piece.

Are you sure it's not just a physical problem? It would be horrible if this is not gum but a tick of some kind that they guy can't stop."
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#1314866 - 11/30/09 03:25 AM Re: People hear with their Eyes and their Skin [Re: david_a]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: david_a
"Touch" on one isolated note doesn't exist,
You miss the point of this thread. What the performer's finger feels is added into the mix which his/her brain calls sound (as Andromaque points out). So yes - harsh touch, harsh sound.
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#1315595 - 12/01/09 01:07 AM Re: People hear with their Eyes and their Skin [Re: keyboardklutz]
kennywood Offline
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I would really love to read this "study". I have to wonder how much a person who has been deaf from birth will hear through his eyes. I'm reminded of the words of Alfred Brendel, a few years back, after one of Daniel Barenboim's, Reith Lectures at Chicago's Symphony Hall, which were, "I'm coming back to what you said about seeing and listening and hearing. I had to think of a remark that I heard yesterday, somebody came and said "I saw your concert". Can we change the usage of, of this phrase please? And I hope that some of the people in our concert tonight will listen and even hear what we are doing!" I couldn't agree with him more. Sadly, the ear is incredibly neglected in the visual society we live in. The ear begins operating on the forty-fifth day of pregnancy, which means it has a seven and a half month advance on the eye, yet we do very little to develop our ears further.

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#1315694 - 12/01/09 08:45 AM Re: People hear with their Eyes and their Skin [Re: keyboardklutz]
Piano*Dad Online   content
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Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Originally Posted By: david_a
"Touch" on one isolated note doesn't exist,
You miss the point of this thread. What the performer's finger feels is added into the mix which his/her brain calls sound (as Andromaque points out). So yes - harsh touch, harsh sound.


Sorry, KBK, I'm with David_a on this one. And he's not missing the point of the thread at all, he's simply adding one more idea to it.
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#1315697 - 12/01/09 08:50 AM Re: People hear with their Eyes and their Skin [Re: Piano*Dad]
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Jeff,

So what's a young person to do in this world in which so many 'educated' musicians partially judge your sound on the basis of your body motions? Ah, well, really a rhetorical question. My son's teacher is not forcing him to remain rigid and stiff. Quite to the contrary. But relaxed technique is often produced by a still and calm hand and arm. Rapid and accurate technique often is aided by avoiding excess motion that simply wastes energy and focuses the mind on something other than tone production.
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#1315708 - 12/01/09 09:12 AM Re: People hear with their Eyes and their Skin [Re: Piano*Dad]
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Back to the topic, this may explain why it was nearly impossible for me to interpret from Japanese to English without looking at the speaker especially during my early days as an interpreter. It was quite disconcerting at the start...I thought maybe the acoustics changed due to ear orientation when I wasn't facing the speaker. It's gotten a bit better now, but I always make it a point to face the speaker as much as possible. Somehow, looking at them makes it easier to understand. Or maybe it's the visual cues confused
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#1315735 - 12/01/09 10:09 AM Re: People hear with their Eyes and their Skin [Re: marimorimo]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Quote:
In a paper in Nature, Bryan Gick and Donald Derrick of the University of British Columbia report that people can hear with their skin.
P*Dad, what more evidence do you want?
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#1315743 - 12/01/09 10:17 AM Re: People hear with their Eyes and their Skin [Re: keyboardklutz]
Piano*Dad Online   content
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That's not his point. There is reasonable argument that the physics of a free flying piano hammer is largely independent of the touch used to generate that motion. Once the hammer has escaped (and it has whatever amount of momentum given to it by the contact of the hand), it is that momentum that creates sound. The velocity of the hammer is the thing that counts. Some people think that torque, or whatever, can affect overtones by how much the hammer may flex and distort during its flight to the strings, and that this flexion is generated by the way you strike the key, but frankly I'm skeptical.
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#1315856 - 12/01/09 12:19 PM Re: People hear with their Eyes and their Skin [Re: Piano*Dad]
keyboardklutz Offline
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The point is it is not physics but neurophysiology. In the brain the feel (+ other senses) is added to the ear's signal to create the sound experienced. They can't be separated.
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#1315869 - 12/01/09 12:38 PM Re: People hear with their Eyes and their Skin [Re: keyboardklutz]
Amant Offline
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Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
The point is it is not physics but neurophysiology. In the brain the feel (+ other senses) is added to the ear's signal to create the sound experienced. They can't be separated.


There you go again!

By the way , how was your meeting with the Chief of Anatomy at King's College?

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#1315872 - 12/01/09 12:41 PM Re: People hear with their Eyes and their Skin [Re: Amant]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Amant
By the way , how was your meeting with the Chief of Anatomy at King's College?
As he's a friend of yours maybe you could set it up? I'm only responding here to the OP's reference.
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#1315888 - 12/01/09 01:05 PM Re: People hear with their Eyes and their Skin [Re: keyboardklutz]
Amant Offline
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Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Originally Posted By: Amant
By the way , how was your meeting with the Chief of Anatomy at King's College?
As he's a friend of yours maybe you could set it up? I'm only responding here to the OP's reference.


Since I do not have your Christian name and assureds, he would not merely schedule a meeting with keyboardklutz. But, if you want to call his secretary and make an appointment, saying that "John Armant, MD, FACS, from Chicago" referred you, he will look on you request to meet kindly.

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#1315896 - 12/01/09 01:20 PM Re: People hear with their Eyes and their Skin [Re: Amant]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Will do. And by the way it's Steve Keyboardklutz.
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#1315901 - 12/01/09 01:23 PM Re: People hear with their Eyes and their Skin [Re: Amant]
Piano*Dad Online   content
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KBK,

I'm not referring to well known feedbacks between touch and sound as perceived by the pianist, but the physics of the sound as perceived by the listener in the audience (or sometimes silly judge).
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#1315905 - 12/01/09 01:30 PM Re: People hear with their Eyes and their Skin [Re: keyboardklutz]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
That explains why a harsh touch causes the performer to hear a harsh sound.
But I am.
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#1315955 - 12/01/09 02:13 PM Re: People hear with their Eyes and their Skin [Re: keyboardklutz]
Piano*Dad Online   content
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inadvertent post.


Edited by Piano*Dad (12/01/09 02:14 PM)
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#1316001 - 12/01/09 03:18 PM Re: People hear with their Eyes and their Skin [Re: Piano*Dad]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
inadvertent post.

Gotcha!
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#1316029 - 12/01/09 03:51 PM Re: People hear with their Eyes and their Skin [Re: keyboardklutz]
jotur Offline
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Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Will do. And by the way it's Steve Keyboardklutz.


grin

Cathy

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