disclaimer: I'm not really a teacher. I turn down most teaching requests because I am not trained or certified, and I have great respect for those who are. Still, I like this part of pianoworld and I am reluctant to post this topic in the pianist's corner for a couple reasons.

I am the accompanist for a choral ensemble. Our director is on sabbatical.. taking a year off and we hired this organ virtuoso to 'direct' us at the suggestion of our pastor. He is unbelievably talented and I thought 'hay - I'll pick up some organ tips as I work with him'. He is 22, and is a church music major and has directed a choir before. His position requires that he conduct and coordinates our Masses. Coordination is pretty labor intensive and conducting is an art. This kid however, with his well deserved delusions of grandeur, has visions of how he can create gorgeous choral output but fails to consider that for the most part, the members are not musicians per se. We have 6 instruments plus myself and he hates them because they mistakes. He refuses to use our repertoire which we've accumulated over 10 years or so and can perform well. He introduces music beyond the capabilities of our members. We can't really fire him.. (he is the nephew of our organist pastor) his tenure is only for 5 more months. Actually, he is a marvelous conductor - very Leonard Bernstein but is loath to really put his heart into it. He's nervous about it. WE are having so many problems with him.. I end up doing nothing but damage control. What he really does well, is drown us out. He has no respect for the congregation or the instruments (excluding me perhaps, but he'd just as soon prefer that I not be there, because he wants to play). We let him play the opening and closing hymns and perform a postlude.

I suppose this is a bit of rant, but I'd welcome sugge3stion of how I should deal with a performance primadonna who really is not the person that should have been hired.

I realize his 'immaturity' is a factor of the age of 22.

perhaps you all have some stories that will make me feel better.

Just do your job, keep your head down, and let it all crash and burn.

There's a two-edged sword to being a conductor. If everything goes well, you get to stand up front and get all the glory. If everything goes poorly, you take all the blame.

So, let him take the blame. I assume the musicians at the church have been doing this for years - nobody's going to believe him when he says "well, the musicians are horrible," and anybody who knows anything about working with church musicians knows that repertoire selection is everything. (And honestly, if he's going to get a degree in church music, he might as well learn it now the hard way while he's young and there's still hope.)

I remember playing in an orchestra and a guest conductor, who was young but very highly regarded - by himself as well as others. We were playing Pines of Rome, and there is a moment in the piece where the orchestra holds a chord and the piano has a cadenza, after which the orchestra continues. The conductor, in all his glory, brought the orchestra in several seconds before the cadenza was over. I could've improvised a quick ending and done "damage control," and I would have if I thought it was an honest mistake, but in rehearsals I always got the feeling the conductor had no patience for our regional per-service orchestra, believing the gig to be nothing more than a stepping stone to his future job as King of The New York Philharmonic.

Instead, I just kept playing to the end of the cadenza, making it painfully obvious to everyone that the conductor had brought the orchestra in early. He shot me a look, which I returned with a look that said "that's right, you can screw up too, pal."

To his credit, he got it right the next night. As did I. Again.

These situations are always tough. I'm not sure if you were looking for advice, so ignore what I say if not (I say this in the wake of recent threads by non-teachers and non-professionals who post here with the appearance of seeking advice, only to find out later they just want to rant and leave :P).

As a professional myself, I would see his behavior as a sign of his insecurity. Most people aren't that boorish, but sometimes they are. Let's assume he's feeling insecure about this position in some way and feels he needs to prove himself. I might take him aside and gently let him know how you feel and that you notice others seem to feel the same way. I would do it in a way to allow him to save face. It's a delicate thing, and probably should be done without the possibility of others listening in. Perhaps invite to meet with him over a cup of coffee.

Keep in mind, however, that the chances of him actually changing are slim, as your remarks will be taken only as suggestions. Any way to can deflect the blame (you all aren't professionals and are having a hard time keeping up with his demands or standards, etc.) will come across the best. Then it's not a criticism of him but rather a criticism of the group.

Sounds like his people skills are lacking. Men usually appreciate directness and if it were me, I'd tell him to be nicer to people. But prima donna's aren't used to people talking back to them. They're used to getting their way.

Still, I would have that talk.

I love it. This is so true. You are describing a typical immature but talented pseudo-adolescent.

Try to be gentle. That's hard, I know. Let him make his mistakes. Advise as you can, but he has to be the one who learns. He may just have to learn the hard way.

Maybe a private talk with the pastor, Apple?

Scissors cut paper, rock breaks scissors, paper wraps rock...

I was first going to suggest that you have a talk with the pastor - this is because speaking directly to such a person often doesn't work, but them hearing from their superiors that "we've been getting some troubling reports" might work instead. Then I realized you said he's the pastor's nephew. So maybe just forget it and wait a while.

i talk to the pastor all the time.. that's the only way the kid will comply.

heh

So how many unhappy people are there who are concerned about this? Most people don't know there's a problem at the level you are talking about - the young talented man is probably considered quite a catch since he also came recommended.

I know where of you speak in personal experience. A new choir director was hired after I became the church pianist and he was still in college, a vocal/choral major but lacking first hand experience. So popular and welcome by the congregation and he did deserve a thank you from them as he was earnest in his wanting to succeed.

But, I got the pleasure of listening to his every complaint and every problem that he was having, and he was pretty snide and unpleasant about certain people's abilities in singing. So while he was smiling at the rehearsals, I'd get the phone calls and messages about all that was not going well.

There is no winning these things.

Keep a safe distance, I'd say, and be cordial to everyone, without looking for the solutions at this point. Everything eventually changes if you can wait it out.

I felt that musically I was much too close to the situation understanding where he was coming from in wanting to do really well, but he neglected to notice when interviewing and doing his try-outs with the choir that his expectations were not going to be met with the music he was choosing.

We all learn from these encounters, I think. Just do your best in the music arena and that will be a huge contribution.

Well, if you're tried talking to him and the pastor and still no results, then it's time to pull out the punches. At some point, he will have to realize that if you guys perform badly, it reflects badly on his reputation.

When you're inside a situation such as this, it always seems much more important than it turns out to be. Stay calm. (Yeah right.)

I'm a little confused (this is normal)

Is this choral and instrumental or only one or the other?

If everyone is volunteering their time (no paychecks are riding on it), I would suggest the rest of you tell the pastor you're going to take a sabbatical as well, until your regular director is back. It is depressing to try to play music that is too hard for you, and not do well, especially since you're playing in public.

There is no need to put up with this sort of treatment. If you are doing this as a volunteer there is no reason to put up with people who don't respect your offering of talent.

If there are over-riding reasons where you can't all just quit for the interim, then I would follow the advice to let him fall flat on his face. Just don't expect him to realize where the blame lies. I would be astounded beyond measure if he realizes it's his own fault. (at least not for another decade or 2)

we are an instrumental group with a choral.. 6 instruments, 20 voices. - we have lost 3 instruments.. they're on sabbatical, waiting for him to leave.
i was just sharing with my husband and dinner guest some of the things this kid has said..

'the choir should not be heard'

'the guitars should never be heard'

'the altos don't need to practice, I'll just drown them out'.

My ensemble is made up of fairly mature people.. 30 to 60 or so. and we've kind of decided we're just going to tolerate him and pray he goes away... or just wait him out.

Funny thing, he's trying his darndest to compromise, yet insists on maintaining his vision as he intends.. which would consist mostly of a-capella SATB, if he could get away with it. .. then he frets and wonders why the inexperienced singer can't remember their parts of all the new songs they are learning.

if we can get thru Christmas that will be a miracle.

my poor pastor is sorry he has saddled him on us... I told him a couple weeks ago I wanted to quit.. and he said 'You can't.. I'd have to fire him first'.. so tempting.

A timely "indisposition," requiring a "period of rest" could make that five months go faster for you. There's no reason you should take such a bitter draught full-strength... and that is far short of abandoning your church.

Your sympathy with the preacher's family problems is very generous-spirited. And indeed, they can be real problems: my mom and her brother scarcely spoke for upwards of fifteen years over a "nephew problem."

As they say, "Wait twenty years and it will go away by itself." Our problem has. But I would say, take care of yourself first.

Good luck with this one.

Wow! You certainly have your hands full.

Unfortunately a lot of colleges just teach the basics of choral performing and not the other 90% of what the job entails: how to prepare a rehearsal, the administration duties involved, people skills, the selection of the proper repertoire, etc. The easy part is the playing and/or directing. Having said that, I'd suggest a sit-down with this young man, but doing it with love, sincerity, and lots and lots of prayer. Don't expect him to get a sudden 'epiphany' but show him where he needs to improve his skills so that people don't just get up and leave. Let him know that you want him to be the best he can be FOR GOD and for the church. Afterall, this is nota performance - it's a calling - it's all about Jesus - and never about the musicians. It's an entirely different ballgame than a concert atmosphere.

Ask him what his goals for the choir and church music are. Sound him out about where he wants the choir to be in the remaining months that he's there. Ask him what his vision is. That will give you a big clue as to what he expects from you , the choir and himself. Let him know that you'll support him if he will support the rest of the team. Yes, TEAM - because you're all working towards the same goal. It's not one-man show - it's not a concert, and it's not about him. I'd even use the old cliche - 'there's no "I" in the word TEAM.

I'd also suggest he (or you) purchase a wonderful book written by Rory Noland entitled The Heart of the Artist published by Zondervan. This is a wonderful and valuable book that every church musician should have in their library. In it Mr. Noland addresses many key issues such as "Servanthood Versus Stardom", "Excellence Versus Perfectionism", "Handling Criticsm", "Spiritual Discilines of the Artist", and much, much more. I'm reading and studying it again and gaining more insight with each page.

I wish you the best and will be praying for a good solution for all. Please keep us informed.

Blessings,
Joanie

Why not? Life is too short to spend a long time being miserable. I think too many of us have misguided feelings of obligation that keeps us in counterproductive situations. Especially given your recent bout with chemo, you'd be more than justified in going to the pastor and saying that you need to take 6 months or so (carefully timed ) to recharge your batteries. It's okay to put your own needs and wishes first.

I say try Joanie's approach first, as that is the right thing to do, and then when that fails (and most likely it will) go with the suggestion of Monica and other.

Joanie, it seems that book would have been helpful for me back when I was music director at a church. I have since given up that job as I felt it went too close to the "stardom" spectrum than the servant. Thanks for the recommendation

Next rehearsal when he starts to play, everyone else in the choir keep silent. Don't sing or play any instrument. Let him keep playing until he stops. He'll ask why you aren't singing.

Go on to the next song and do the same. See if he gets the message that the church choir is more than just him.

Suggest that he play solo entirely for the next service. He'll probably want his own moment to shine.


Forget about hoping the problem will go away. Hit it directly. Write down each problem specifically that you've told us and give it to him. Go over each one.

He's a young kid who thinks his musical talent supercedes the purpose of church music. Worship and praise is for the glory of the Lord. I used to play in a church band, with a leader who'd take songs and rearrange them on the fly like doing the chorus 4 times in a row. I told him we need structure and a set way of doing things.

Save that stuff for his jamming. If you let the problem linger, you'll just resent him even more.

I agree with you, Morodiene. I would do the same in this situation. Sometimes it takes a little bit of tact along with outright bluntness to solve problems like this.

To be honest I think this kid is just naive and very inexperienced. Sadly it's on Apple's watch that he's gaining experiece.

John

Published 1999; out-of-print, but still available used, very modestly priced. ISBN 9780310224716

what a great suggestion! I'll check it out.

Quitting is not so easy.. I am the heart and soul of this group and if I quit, so does the group (except for the new teenage girl groupies who think he's cute and have joined the choir (wish they knew how to sing)).

We want to work with him. He doesn't know how to listen, which is odd, since he is such a marvelous musician.. He doesn't know how to hear the flaws and fix them, he doesn't incorporate our suggestions. In talking with the pastor (who is a dear friend - my organ teacher buddy and big fan of our ensemble).. he says "the key I think is to just take advantage of the situation, and learn from him.." He has brought some interesting music to the group, not really appropriate for what we do, but, oh well. For instance, our basses come from a barbershop quartet.. and sing at one volume.. they have lovely voices, but are surprisingly 'unchoral'. They sound great and are wonderfully overpowering. He will just tell them not to sing.. heh.

I'm glad I've had the opportunity to hear your views... they're pretty helpful.

a little more ranting..to top it off, I am very type-A about my music.. that I arrange in perfect order. He'll borrow it and lose sheets.. aaaarrgh.

just a kid. He won an important organ competition, is studying under a fellowship and grant and hearing him play is a wonderful plus.. I've learned so much.

On the matter of the barbershop quartet guys singing too loud, I would instead challenge the others to sing louder to match them. Most choirs tend to sing with shut down voices which is unhealthy. It's very hard to sing softly well.

i agree with everyone, talk with the pastor, talk to the kid, let it all crash and burn... it's all sound advice. This may not be the best advice, but perhaps fight a primadonna by being a primadonna. Get as many of your choir members on board and refuse to play his songs. Bring in your own songs, sign a petition, don't show up... It's really childish, sure, but sometimes people can only understand what they're doing when it's done back to them in the same way.

good luck!

update..

we had a rehearsal last nite, and it was marvelous. The pastor obviously spent a lot of time, trying to help him. He had changed all the upcoming schedules to accomodate our repertoire and requests.. he passed out new sheets.

he actually let me play with the realization that I might possibly know what I was thinking and new how to accompany. he was pretty surprised actually. The past couple months, he has just plopped these fairly complicated organ accompaniments in front me, set the organ super loud and expect me to play, cringing every time, I'd hit a wrong pedal... He had given us a rehearsal list ahead of time. He directed us and let us play with the singers.. He let me play while he was teaching. Things went so well.

AND the clincher.. He asked me after practice if I would accompany him while he sang 'O Holy Night' for Christmas.. I was stunned. He has demonstrated that he has an ok voice for choral rehearsal but it seemed like it was nothing special. I asked if we could quickly go thru it, I wanted to hear 'how' he sang, so I could plan the accompaniment and OMGOSH~~~~~~!!!!!!!!!!!! he totally blew me away.. His voice is incredible. .. a gorgeous, full, rich, strong HIGH tenor. He hit this G, with amazing beauty and strength. He can so easily and seamlessly slip into falsetto.. it's hard to tell where his voice changes. He sang that G (and slipped up to a high G just for fun, and continued the ending in a soprano voice) without the muscleshout of a normal high tenor. .. kind of a beautiful yodel voice change.. I don't really know how to explain that. (I'm thinking.... Jose Carreras move over).

What interesting boy he is. Anyway, I feel a lot better.

I'm glad it worked out for the better and he learned to work with you guys. Sometimes people just don't realize what's going on around them and they need someone to let them know.

Phew! Glad it worked out, and glad you didn't have to resort to my "walk out of there" strategy. Communication and compromise is better.

believe Monica... I came so close countless times. It was the agreed signal.. "just walk Mary, we're with you". Not that I ever wanted to be manipulative.. and then the pastor saddling me with 'if you quit, I'll have to fire him".

The growing pains have been intense and I don't need that stuff in my life. I'm supposed to positive. It's really nice to know he's really trying. I have always been able to see how difficult it is for him, to jump into a cohesive group and lead it without knowing the group's modus operandi. I wouldn't want to do that.

(I'm wondering how many emails he has received, offering him guidance, tips and angst. I know he got at least 20 from me).

Thanks for letting know how it turned out. I am happy for you and also happy for him that he was able to see the bigger picture (beyond his own talent) and learn how to work with people.

I'm glad that it turned out OK, Apple. I'd been following the thread, but didn't have time to write what I was thinking, which was that the poor guy is just afraid and a bit hysteric, and that you oughtn't be too rough on him.

It seems to me a lot of misery could have been avoided if the job of performer and director had been split between two people, rather than assuming that a skilled player can automatically do both.

This kid could play and sing, and would have likely made an excellent assistant director while learning the director craft. Instead he got stuck with both jobs, and probably was even more miserable than he made the rest of you.

I am glad to hear that you were patient and let things work themselves out (with a little help, it seems)

To me he just seems inexperienced and full of this is what I would love to be doing with you'll. But until I get the choir and players that I dream of, I am going to shape you'll up!!!!!

Forgetting of course that everyone there is a volunteer for sharing music for their church (along with some paid participants)

Maybe he is now growing, with you'lls help!

I almost feel that there is the possibility of a church choir group hug that includes the new guy!

I think it is always difficult to be the new person stepping into a position in a group that has already been formed and full of past experiences.

I can also see the ambitions of a new director projecting his aspirations onto this choir whether they are ready for him or not.

I can almost see the elbows go out to the sides while holding the music - elbows rigidly out were always a sign of discomfort to me when I played in churches. I watched the body language in the choir just as much as I watched the director.

There are, to me, two conditions that tell me something is "off":1) too much talking and laughter during rehearsals, 2) no talking and no laughter at all.

I'm glad that you and he communicated his musical potential to each other. Now the communication part can really start, and he does have so much to learn about the personal dynamics of directing a choir.

I feel that we can only be effective piano teachers when the student has given his permission for us to teach, and I feel the same way about other situtations where musicians have to work together, it goes better with their permission, that's when the real collaboration begins.

Enjoy your December music together!

Betty

I remember being a young director. I had "standards" and knew what I wanted, couldn't understand why everyone couldn't be as passionate or knowledgeble as I, and (the biggest problem) I couldn't listen to what the group was doing because I was so preoccupied with my conducting skills.

We learn as we go and sometimes the learning has to be the hard way. Hopefully this young person will continue to learn and grow. I know I did.

heh..

i went to a concert of his last nite.. he is a member of the chorus and accompanies the orchestra.

i saw him afterwards and he was so happy to see me he hugged me. .. really hugged me hard.



(he is a dear)

Awwww! How nice! Is he being better accepted?

We all are getting along much better.

i'm beginning to love this kid. he's a bit of a drama queen if you know what i mean, and constantly looks to me for approval. we secretly laugh at the basses who sing so loud...

we practiced his solo O Holy Night. I'm practically in love, he sings so well. (no falsetto tonite)

who'd a thunk?

sounds like you are doing a grand job of mentoring a young musician who will likely always be grateful to you.

good going, mary!

You are going to miss him when he's gone...

Life can be weird some times..

just an update..

i LOVE working with this kid because I am learning so much. My organ skills have improved 200 % just by osmosis. I really like him --- i can totally identify with him.. however, most of the instrumentalists have quit. There is a lot of pressure from the guitarists and brass to form a new group (i'm sticking with the brilliant kid). We are down to one flute, one violin, me and the singers.

Why can't manners and leadership skills be a part of music 101?

Because the focus of our education is internal, developing a performer.

This is not a customer focused endeavor. Try working in industry sometime, you will be shocked at the change in attitude. It's not subtle, it's a paradigm shift.

Of course that's not the only reason, but IMO it is part of it.

another update.

i'm very sad.. I quit my group.. not because of him really...i have to move, move my husband's business and help build the new house*.. but he sure helped.

he totally took over for Easter Week... The prima donna show. We parted on good terms and he is not returning next year..(about which I am kind of sad and kind of ecstatic.. my good friend and partner is returning). I really did like the kid. We are only scheduled to play 2 more times between now and June 15th.. so he is a sense winding up.

Altho he got much better leading us in his own way, all the instruments except me and flautist, quit during this year. Also along the way we acquired some biblical fundamentalist linguists who always had to comment on the translations and trash the body of church music and our repertoire. (I will not miss them especially since they were mostly full of bull.)

(apple, who had six years of Latin and got a grant after college to work on biblical manuscripts attempting to redate them etymologically)

see a pic of our house to be.

Sorry to hear about your quitting the group, but it is certainly understandable. And that is very exciting about your new house! It's good that you're freeing up your schedule to supervise the building process, because you'll need all that time (and probably more).

I checked out your blog, and I have to say the original owner/builder was nuts. Your new floor plan is MUCH more livable! And it looks like you've identified an ideal spot for the piano.

Golly, Apple, you have so much going on!

I'm so happy to hear about the plans and progress on your house. I'm sending my best wishes in every way for a wonderful experience and all good memories leading toward moving into your huge, new house!

Can I ask you if your biblical and Latin background and all of the characteristics or profile of a person keenly interested in what that entails (being scholarly and precise and dedicated, come to mind) has had a huge impact on your philosophy of music and also your approach to Bach and the music scholars. I saw a video of you playing Bach somewhere on the forum, but I don't know when or where I saw it. Do you have some videos floating around, Apple? I remember hearing serenity and brilliance in your playing and appreciating your musicianship. I think you gave me the answer about your source of inspiration (in the spirit) when you made your comments.

The sacred influence toward religious archives and the early world of music and humanity is a precious study of substance. Our comtemporary world caught up in the dither of too many choices for people leads us away from things significant toward things very fleeting and unproductive. This would also apply to your young friend who lives and relates more egotistically.

I like old souls! You have a deep and courageous one, I think! That is my impression of you here in cyber space!

Betty