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#1315473 - 11/30/09 09:55 PM Re: tuning hammer for a Mason Hamlin grand? [Re: AUTPHF]
Neil Sundberg Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 140
Loc: Seattle, Washingon
Originally Posted By: AUTPHF
Hi Neil,
Just out of curiosity will you be using an ETD to start your tuning?. I am using TuneLab (free download) as a training aid and just out of curiosity. It's kinda cool, but I want to be an aural tuner with the ETD as a backup. Tuning is an interesting field with no end to perfecting it. I am gonna take the plunge and do the Randy Potter course starting in the new year.


Cheers


Tony


Hi Tony,

And thanks to all who have participated in this thread today. I am liking the spirit of it now.

And thanks to Grandpianoman for posting your recordings. Hopefully I will have some to share at some point.

So, Tony,

Yes, I will be using an ETD. I purchased Verituner for my Ipaq 210. It downloaded and installed on it just fine. I did that just a few days ago and haven't yet had time to work with it. But so far I am quite impressed with it.

My old friend Dean who is a tuner used Verituner to tune my Mason right after I trailered it home from Colorado last Fall. I was quite impressed with Verituner then and I liked the way Dean and Verituner made my piano sound.

I also tried Tunelab which worked fine for me really. There was just too much movement in it's phase display for my liking. Plus I already knew I liked Verituner's capabiities, so I decided to go for it. But I did have success with Tunelab. I got about half of the piano tuned with it last week.

Given the above, I would agree with anyone that at least understanding what is going on is really helpful. I am also studying Arthur Reblitz's excellent book on the subject. It is well written and easily understood. I truely am not sure I would have the patience to listen for beats to tune intervals. But I think it could be fun to master that too. One of the future features of Verituner, according to the web site, will be that it may end up having the ability to count the beats for you. ( This is Verituner Pocket I am talking about. The Verituner 100 already does that but costs around $1800.) Anyway, that could be a great learning tool to help learn beat counting.

I have started a Yahoo group for folks like us that are just starting, want to share anything about any brand of ETD or talk about these basic lever technique type of things.
Here is a link to it- http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/DIYPianotuning/?yguid=74281353

If that doesn't work, just search on DIY Piano Tuning in Yahoo groups. I have not set it up to require approval yet, so it should be quite easy to join. So please do join and we can help each other out. Tuners who would be friendly to our cause are quite welcome also.

Thanks,

Neil


Edited by Neil Sundberg (11/30/09 10:05 PM)
Edit Reason: grammer fix

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#1315504 - 11/30/09 10:34 PM Re: tuning hammer for a Mason Hamlin grand? [Re: AUTPHF]
JBE Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/17/09
Posts: 377
Loc: USA
I never did quite understand that part of the Reblitz book. Nobody but nobody ever tunes with the handle of the lever hanging out over the keys!....do they?
In the book he does mention that six o'clock on an upright is different than six o'clock on a grand.

From my perspective, twelve o'clock is from where I am sitting, not from which way the hammer handle is in relation to the strings direction. At a vertical twelve o'clock is with the handle sticking straight up away from the strings direction. On a grand 12 o'clock is with the handle is straight back toward the tail going WITH the direction of the strings. I don't know if it makes much difference, other than one way is possible and the other is not.....for me anyway.

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#1315523 - 11/30/09 10:51 PM Re: tuning hammer for a Mason Hamlin grand? [Re: JBE]
JBE Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/17/09
Posts: 377
Loc: USA
So for grand tuning, Reblitz's 5 o'clock is actually 11 o'clock so I don't think you need to get a super tall extension to get over the stretcher.

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#1315559 - 11/30/09 11:34 PM Re: tuning hammer for a Mason Hamlin grand? [Re: JBE]
Neil Sundberg Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 140
Loc: Seattle, Washingon
Originally Posted By: byronje3
I never did quite understand that part of the Reblitz book. Nobody but nobody ever tunes with the handle of the lever hanging out over the keys!....do they?
In the book he does mention that six o'clock on an upright is different than six o'clock on a grand.

From my perspective, twelve o'clock is from where I am sitting, not from which way the hammer handle is in relation to the strings direction. At a vertical twelve o'clock is with the handle sticking straight up away from the strings direction. On a grand 12 o'clock is with the handle is straight back toward the tail going WITH the direction of the strings. I don't know if it makes much difference, other than one way is possible and the other is not.....for me anyway.


Thanks for addressing this subject about what Reblitz wrote. I think it would be possible to use his method, but the fact is that you would have to put a long tip extension on your lever to clear the wood above the keys. (Sorry, could someone tell me what to call that?) So, in using this method, you may avoid pin bending forces by having the handle at that position and then introduce some other kind of side force on the pin since you have this long, say 3 inch in the case of my Mason Hamlin, tip- tip extension combo.

I guess the reason I thought it could have been worth figuring out was that it seemed to make sense that you can sit on the piano bench and tune with a relatively relaxed posture. it just seems like leaning over the pin block so that you can get the lever handle at the 12, 1, 2 O'clock position is a bit awkward.

But now I am concluding that is what I will need to figure out how to do. I do want to keep the tip length shortish and the head angle low. I realize this is most likely old hat for you tuners. You have found a posture and a way of doing it that works for you and I'm sure I will too.

Am I wrong, would a piano made differently with lower wood in that area perhaps create more followers of Reblitz's lever method?

Neil

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#1315568 - 11/30/09 11:53 PM Re: tuning hammer for a Mason Hamlin grand? [Re: JBE]
Neil Sundberg Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 140
Loc: Seattle, Washingon
Originally Posted By: byronje3
So for grand tuning, Reblitz's 5 o'clock is actually 11 o'clock so I don't think you need to get a super tall extension to get over the stretcher.


I have his book here. I will quote it directly-

" You will bend the pins the least if you keep the handle of the tuning lever approximately parallel to the strings, extending away from them. As you look at the tuning pins in a vertical piano, orient the lever in a position around one o'clock if you are right handed. , or eleven o'clock if you are a lefty. Looking down at the tuning pins while sitting directly in front of a grand, orient the lever somewhere around five o'clock."

A few paragraphs latter he says

" For best control of the lever, rest your elbow firmly on the pinblock , cabinet, or other convenient part of the piano. With your elbow resting on the piano, your wrist and elbow are the pivot points for your hand. With your elbow hanging in midair, your shoulder is a pivot point, decreasing control."

Then in his first tuning exercise he confirms that he is pulling the handle in a counterclockwise direction to lower pitch and raising pitch by pushing on the lever.

So, am I wrong or what? When I try what he is saying, the lever handle is over the keys on my grand.

Neil

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#1315575 - 12/01/09 12:13 AM Re: tuning hammer for a Mason Hamlin grand? [Re: Neil Sundberg]
Tranesong2 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 11
Loc: Michigan
Damn, aural tuning is our only authentic signature to the music. Using tuning software may get you to the frequency. But does not show you how to set the pin or the string? Does it replicate your natural stretch? Never.
Get a real education. Try to get to North Bennet St. School in Boston, or the University of Western Ontario, the Chicago School of Piano Technology, and learn the entire trade. You can't learn this stuff from the mail. Sorry Randy.
_________________________
Lawson's Piano

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#1315577 - 12/01/09 12:14 AM Re: tuning hammer for a Mason Hamlin grand? [Re: Tranesong2]
Tranesong2 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 11
Loc: Michigan
Reblitz is a good book. Can you learn the trade from this? NOOOOOO.
_________________________
Lawson's Piano

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#1315580 - 12/01/09 12:23 AM Re: tuning hammer for a Mason Hamlin grand? [Re: Tranesong2]
Tranesong2 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 11
Loc: Michigan
Much to the dismay of our peers. The direction of the hammer is secondary to the ability to set the pins. Flag poling aside, set the string, set the pin. Bang and test the keys....hard!
_________________________
Lawson's Piano

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#1315586 - 12/01/09 12:40 AM Re: tuning hammer for a Mason Hamlin grand? [Re: Tranesong2]
Tranesong2 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 11
Loc: Michigan
Oh ya, don't have the patience to listen to beats? You really don't have a clue. Piano tuning is completely about beats. If you want to be a true piano technician you have to undestand that pianos are not tuned by pitch. They are tuned by frequency, by beats. Anything else is ignorant and completely lazy and without ART!It takes the same amount of time to learn our trade as it does to learn to play the piano. If you think you can take a shortcut to the art, to the trade.....forget it. You will always be a novice.
_________________________
Lawson's Piano

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#1315592 - 12/01/09 12:59 AM Re: tuning hammer for a Mason Hamlin grand? [Re: Tranesong2]
Neil Sundberg Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 140
Loc: Seattle, Washingon
Originally Posted By: Tranesong2
Oh ya, don't have the patience to listen to beats? You really don't have a clue. Piano tuning is completely about beats. If you want to be a true piano technician you have to undestand that pianos are not tuned by pitch. They are tuned by frequency, by beats. Anything else is ignorant and completely lazy and without ART!It takes the same amount of time to learn our trade as it does to learn to play the piano. If you think you can take a shortcut to the art, to the trade.....forget it. You will always be a novice.


OK, I'm a novice. when it comes to tuning pianos I'm pretty ignorant, lazy hmm I wish I had some free time to enjoy. Did I say I wanted to become a piano tuner for anyone else? Anywhere here? What does it matter to you what my piano sounds like? This is for me. If you want to be rude, please go elsewhere.

Another thing here, read this whole thread, have I not given tuners the respect you deserve? I think the answer to that is yes.

Tranesong, it's really tough to respond to you when you sound mad. But maybe you can tell us what seems to be really bothering you if you insist. I'm serious. This is not retorical.

Neil


Edited by Neil Sundberg (12/01/09 01:04 AM)

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#1315806 - 12/01/09 11:32 AM Re: tuning hammer for a Mason Hamlin grand? [Re: Neil Sundberg]
JBE Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/17/09
Posts: 377
Loc: USA
Reblitz doesn't say that the best tuning hammer position is with the hammer handle hanging out over the keys!
The 5, 6, and 7 o'clock referred to in the Reblitz book is actually 11, 12, and 1 o'clock for a grand.

There's no need for a super long tip extension to get over the stretcher.

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#1315810 - 12/01/09 11:36 AM Re: tuning hammer for a Mason Hamlin grand? [Re: JBE]
Neil Sundberg Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 140
Loc: Seattle, Washingon
Thanks Byron

I appreciate it. Oh and I finally know what to call that wood- stretcher


Neil

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#1315819 - 12/01/09 11:50 AM Re: tuning hammer for a Mason Hamlin grand? [Re: Neil Sundberg]
Tranesong2 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 11
Loc: Michigan
Sorry Neil, just passionate about my trade. Way too many hacks kicking around posing as technicians. Again, Sorry
_________________________
Lawson's Piano

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#1315839 - 12/01/09 12:04 PM Re: tuning hammer for a Mason Hamlin grand? [Re: Tranesong2]
Neil Sundberg Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 140
Loc: Seattle, Washingon
Originally Posted By: Tranesong2
Sorry Neil, just passionate about my trade. Way too many hacks kicking around posing as technicians. Again, Sorry


Thanks for the apology tranesong. Really I do understand your point of view.

I also am interested in learning as much as I can and think it would be quite a cool thing to be able to tune aurally as you do.

Maybe I'll get there some day.

Cheers
Neil

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#1316335 - 12/01/09 10:57 PM Re: tuning hammer for a Mason Hamlin grand? [Re: Neil Sundberg]
AUTPHF Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/20/09
Posts: 55
Hi Neil,

Yes, I have looked into the Verituner as well and will seriously consider getting the 100 model once I finish the Randy Potter course. It seems like a nice piece of kit although others swear by the SAT III. It wouldn't take long to recoup the price if only tuning your own piano, which you would probably tune a lot more if you knew how your-self. Anyway the more control you have over your own piano the better grin I think though that you have to learn to be able to discern and count the beats (or at least know how they "sound") to do well at tuning.

I will definately check out the Yahoo groups you suggested. Thanks



Cheers


Tony

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#1316354 - 12/01/09 11:30 PM Re: tuning hammer for a Mason Hamlin grand? [Re: AUTPHF]
JBE Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/17/09
Posts: 377
Loc: USA
Tony. If you get the Verituner 100 you will not be sorry. It is a very nice machine.

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#1316360 - 12/01/09 11:45 PM Re: tuning hammer for a Mason Hamlin grand? [Re: JBE]
JBE Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/17/09
Posts: 377
Loc: USA
I apologize for repeating my point with three posts! I did not see that my first two had been posted. I thought I lost them before submitting them! Sorry.

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#1316389 - 12/02/09 12:25 AM Re: tuning hammer for a Mason Hamlin grand? [Re: JBE]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2245
Loc: Portland, Oregon
AUTPHF,

One can tune a piano without learning to count beats...the ETD does that for you, at least that's been my experience so far.

One thing I did learn on my own the more I tuned with the ETD, and that is I am now able to hear if a unison is out of tune, and with my ear, I can tune the unison so it's beat-less, and the ETD usually agrees with me. smile

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#1316411 - 12/02/09 12:59 AM Re: tuning hammer for a Mason Hamlin grand? [Re: Grandpianoman]
Neil Sundberg Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 140
Loc: Seattle, Washingon
Originally Posted By: grandpianoman
AUTPHF,

One can tune a piano without learning to count beats...the ETD does that for you, at least that's been my experience so far.

One thing I did learn on my own the more I tuned with the ETD, and that is I am now able to hear if a unison is out of tune, and with my ear, I can tune the unison so it's beat-less, and the ETD usually agrees with me. smile


Hey GP,

Love to have your views expressed in DIY piano tuning yahoo group. http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/DIYPianotuning/

Would you do a post there about your ETD experiences?

I set it up to require approval, but that's a cinch.

Hope to see you there. You too Byron and Randy

Neil

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#1316428 - 12/02/09 01:26 AM Re: tuning hammer for a Mason Hamlin grand? [Re: Neil Sundberg]
Neil Sundberg Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 140
Loc: Seattle, Washingon
Byron ,

It's all good. Only one post showed up.

BTW guys,

I ordered my Fujan today. I think it's exciting really. Kind of a small tool to spend almost $400 on but one piano splurge , OK maybe two, a year is OK isn't it? I'm just doing my part to get the economy moving, right? wink

Anyway, I bought the 5 degree head, the 9 3/8 tube, the straight handle assembly, the #2 tip that's an inch long( common knowledge here I assume) and then his 5/8 tip extension.

Then I went to Pianotek supply and bought their Watanabe #2 2 1/2 inch tip and their tip wrench which was quite a bit cheaper than at Fujan.

So, this is my wild and crazy plan. Byron, I hear you on the technique thing where nobody does it with the handle out over the keys. Well, With the combo of the 5/8 tip extension and the 2 1/2 tip, I can get over the stretcher. So, I'll give that a shot. If that doesn't feel good, I'll switch to the one inch tip combined with the 5/8 tip extension so I hopefully will be able to clear the plate webbing. Failing that, Steve Fujan was willing to exchange the head for just the cost of the postage.

So, I'll keep you posted on how this goes. Steve says it'll be around two weeks for delivery.

Neil


Edited by Neil Sundberg (12/02/09 01:57 AM)
Edit Reason: fix Fujan and Watanabe

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#1316437 - 12/02/09 01:49 AM Re: tuning hammer for a Mason Hamlin grand? [Re: Neil Sundberg]
Cy Shuster, RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/18/05
Posts: 3448
Loc: Albuquerque, NM
BTW, the correct spelling is "Fujan" (and "Watanabe").

--Cy--
_________________________
Cy Shuster, RPT
505-265-4234
www.shusterpiano.com
www.facebook.com/shusterpiano
Albuquerque, New Mexico

Registered Piano Technician
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#1316439 - 12/02/09 01:54 AM Re: tuning hammer for a Mason Hamlin grand? [Re: Cy Shuster, RPT]
Neil Sundberg Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 140
Loc: Seattle, Washingon
Thanks Cy,

I'm a terrible speller but I should have gotten those right.

In fact, I'll fix that now.

Thanks

Neil

edit-- fixed Fujan and Watanabe, I couldn't spell without spell check but that was right in front of me, my bad.


Edited by Neil Sundberg (12/02/09 02:17 AM)

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#1316954 - 12/02/09 06:36 PM Re: tuning hammer for a Mason Hamlin grand? [Re: Neil Sundberg]
JBE Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/17/09
Posts: 377
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Neil Sundberg

Byron, I hear you on the technique thing where nobody does it with the handle out over the keys. Well, With the combo of the 5/8 tip extension and the 2 1/2 tip, I can get over the stretcher. So, I'll give that a shot. Neil


OK...if you want to look and feel like you are driving an outboard motor boat then give it a shot but I'm telling you what the Reblitz book really says.


Edited by byronje3 (12/02/09 07:04 PM)

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#1316997 - 12/02/09 07:42 PM Re: tuning hammer for a Mason Hamlin grand? [Re: JBE]
Neil Sundberg Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 140
Loc: Seattle, Washingon
Originally Posted By: byronje3
Originally Posted By: Neil Sundberg

Byron, I hear you on the technique thing where nobody does it with the handle out over the keys. Well, With the combo of the 5/8 tip extension and the 2 1/2 tip, I can get over the stretcher. So, I'll give that a shot. Neil


OK...if you want to look and feel like you are driving an outboard motor boat then give it a shot but I'm telling you what the Reblitz book really says.


Hi Byron

That's great. Made me laugh. ha Maybe it'll make my piano float too. lol BTW- I think I just saw you on the Verituner forum, right?

Neil

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