Hi all,

Stupid question: Why is scaled hammer action desirable on a digital? As far as know, the action on a grand is scaled because it has to be, it's a feature (limitation?) of the mechanics.

They don't try to replicate scaled hammer action on acoustic uprights (or do they?) though in theory it ought to be possible.

What advantage does it bring that the bass keys are heavier than the others? Wouldn't it be better if all keys were the same weight?

Why is this feature found on some digitals? Is the answer any more complex than "because that's how it is on grands and that makes the digital piano seem classier"?

Sean,

All acoustics, upright or grand, have larger hammers on the bass side than on the treble. You are right in that it is part of the mechanics of the piano. Larger and heavier bass strings need to be hit heavier to produce the same level of sound as the much lighter treble strings. I believe the difference is just to make an acoustic piano more even in volume and control across all the keys - by making them uneven in weight.

Digital pianos have this feature to make it easier to play an acoustic. If you were not used to playing a piano with graded action, you would not have the control over the bass notes that you would have over the treble. As far as I know, almost all digital pianos manufactured now have some form of scaled or graded action.

Rich

Yeah, to sum it up, it's not "because it's like that on a Grand and the digital will seem more classy, it is "because it's like that on a Grand and the transition to an acoustic action will be easier that way"

The point of a digital piano is that it is played just like and acoustic piano.

There are many keyboards, most of them in fact, that do not try to replicate a Piano and have piano sounds only as a secondary feature. THese don't have the scaled weights.

On acoustic pianos, both grands
and uprights apparently, the
action is lighter in the treble
than in the bass. I'm not
sure about the exact reason
for this. I thought it was
because most of the fast passages
would be in the treble, and so
it makes sense to have the
action lighter there.

In any case, I grew up with classical
lessons and acoustic pianos only,
an upright at home and uprights
and grands in the teachers' studios
and at recitals, and I never once
noticed the difference in weight
between the treble and bass.
The difference is not very
pronounced.

The scaled (or graded) hammer
action is a fairly recent feature
on digital pianos. For many
years digitals had an evenly-
weighted hammer action, and
that was just fine as it was.
But in the constant effort
to make a digital that is
the same as an acoustic, this
feature was added a few yrs.
ago, and frankly, I don't like
it. I believe the non-scaled
action is better because it
builds greater strength in
the r.h.

The digital I had before my
current one had a scaled action,
and although it was very good,
I began to feel that it did
not develop strength in the
r.h. like a non-scaled action
does. So when shopping for
my current digital, I deliberately
looked for a budget model,
as these are just about the
only ones today that still
have the older non-scaled action.

Another recent feature I don't
like on digitals is the half-pedal.
Like the scaled action, this
is another feature that was
only recently added. This
attempts to reproduce the
"continuous" pedaling on
an acoustic piano, but I
think it's terrible and just
encourages sloppy pedaling.
Even on an acoustic piano,
one should not "half-pedal,"
in my opinion, as this just
creates a muddled sound.
All the way down upon engaging
the pedal, and all the way up upon
releasing it, is the way to
pedal, in my opinion.

My current digital, an economy
model, has the older non-scaled
action and non-half pedal,
and I think it's just great.
The heavy, non-scaled action
builds more strength, and
the non-half pedal encourages
crisp, clean pedaling.

It's about the same reason some digitals come with an escapement feature.

One of my favorite keyboard actions, Roland's SK-6, which is in my HP-1700, is not scaled, and it really makes no difference to me.

The CP-300 has a graded action...also very nice.

I have no problem playing one, and then going to the other....think of it, guitar players use more than one guitar, and they're set up differently (the guitars, not the players) .

Even velocity sensitivity has it's drawbacks for certain sounds, like organ and some synth patches, where you want evenness of volume from note to note.

Gyro, who makes the Williams piano?


Snazzy

So all acoustic pianos will have scaled hammer action? For some reason I thought only grands. To tell the truth, I thought this because today while reading about the Yamaha U1 acoustic piano, I saw this in the description:

"Each key of a Yamaha piano is individually tested and measured for the corrections needed to obtain uniform "down weight" pressure. Yamaha actions play correctly and uniformly. This balancing helps ensure a lifetime of superior touch and control across the keyboard."

So I guess it's still normal that an acoustic (even an upright) will have scaled hammer action, but Yamaha's U1 is an exception to that, where they have intentionally prevented that?

Imagine a sea-saw with one side having a 100 weight and the other a 99 pound weight. It would take only a pound of pressure to push the 99 pound side down.

Now imagine another sea-saw with 1000 pound and 999 pound weight. Still it only takes one pound to push the 999 pound weight down.

If those sea saws were hammers each would require only a pound to move but still one is ten times larger.

What you'd notice while applying that one pound is that the heavier sea-saw has much more inertia and hits the ground harder when it bottoms out.

I think piano keys are kind of like this, they have counter weights and I think the static balance maybe what you were reading.

Sean,

Here is the portion of the DIgital Piano Basics article in PB that deals with the action. The weight of the hammers varies dramatically from the large hammers required in the bass to the smaller hammers used in the treble. Hammer size and density is part of an acoustic piano's scale design and must match the tension and mass of the strings targeted by each hammer. If I remember correctly, the felt difference in hammer weights is multipled about seven times due to the leverage involved.

All acoustic pianos have key weights to help balance the response across the keyboard. Some are more precisely positioned and more successful than others...

btw, Williams is the house brand DP of Guitar Center/Musicians Friend and are sourced from one of the many Chinese contract manufacturers.

Thanks for the info Alden...Gyro must be snoozin'.

Snazzy

Alden, may I ask if there are any plans to review a Williams instrument in a future edition of the Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer?

Cheers,
James
x

I somehow recall there was a review of the Williams piano in Keyboard Magazine...it was just a mini-review, but if I remember correctly, they said it was a good bang for the buck...or at least, satisfactory for a beginner on a strict budget.

I'm thinking the poly was 28 or 32.

If someone could wake up Gyro, we might get some specifics.

Snazzy

Hi KJ - There are currently no plans to review a Williams.

There will be a Kawai though

Hey, the Williams got good user reviews at Guitar Center, and several other sites.

32 note poly on the Symphony Console model.

Gyro definitely knows his stuff.

Snazzy

Snazzy - you're talking about the same guy who thinks half-pedal capability "just encourages sloppy pedaling" and that it shouldn't even be done on an acoustic?!

Well, Alden, he does make many excellent points along with the bad, and so far he's batting at about the same average as the other posters here, including me.

At least he's not connected with Williams...as far we know.

Maybe he owns shares in the company?

I find his approach refreshing and remarkably candid...and his opinions are at least his own.

There's good in everyone, you know.

Snazzy

when the hammer hits the piano string, the wave begins to travel down the string. Now the heavier the piano hammer, the longer it lays on the string. Also the heavier the piano hammer, the longer it is in contact with the string. sound travels at about 1 foot per millisecond, and a bit faster on the hard wound steel strings on the piano.

Now if the wave travels down to the end of the peg and then comes back to the hammer before it lifts up, there will be damping of the sound.

Typically a hammer will lay on the string for a few milliseconds, and if the hammer is still on the string by the time the wave bounces off the end of the string, the sound quality and quantity is compromised.

A shorter string means that there is a very short time that the hammer can lay on the string before you get this damping. So even though you ideally want the higher register strings to have a heavier hammer to give it more volume, you can't.

The lower strings can let the string lay on the hammer for several more milliseconds, which means that you can use much heavier hammers.

The larger the piano, the heavier the hammers can be from top to bottom.

If you calculate how long the hammer can lay on the string before it catches that rebound wave, you will notice that modern pianos are built so that the hammer leaves the string, a bit less than a millisecond before the wave would have hit the hammer. Pianos are incredibly fine tuned this way, which is why if you hammers even a tiny bit too heavy, the piano will sound awful.

As for why you want scaled action on a digital piano, well, it's all about giving it a good feel. You don't need any weight on the keys at all, you could play on synth action keyboard, and it's cheaper, but it's a lot more fun to play on a piano that emulates perfectly the feel of an actual audio piano.

Snazzy - nicely stated and point taken. But if someone told you over and over that no one really needs a Neumann U87 when you can get a perfectly good mic at radio shack that will do the same thing for $19.95, and that you really don't need EQ, effects send, or meters on your board, or that faders just encourage sloppy mic placement wouldn't it start to get a little old after a while?

Only human.

Cheers,
A

Well, Alden, this is a piano forum, and I'm looking for answers about electronic pianos, and certainly not mixing boards, microphones or how to place a mic.

If I needed to know that information (which I don't) I can find that out on any of the relevant boards on the Internet.

However, Gyro offers another point of view about digital pianos, and somewhere between his idea and everyone else's views, there lies the answer.

Most of us are biased, however slightly, on this forum, from being employees of piano companies, to those who grew up always using a certain brand, or those who's heroes played a certain instrument.

Gyro, is coming from his own independent ideas of what makes a successful instrument for his needs...I appreciate that kind of angle, even if I don't agree with it sometimes.

Sometimes I wish I could step away from the hype, and choose with a much more open mind, but I can't...at least not as much as I'd like to.

I've had to wade through hopelessly rhetorical posts on this forum, and I'm sure others have waded through mine with equal impatience, but we still manage to find a great answer more often than not.

Saying we're "only human" is just an excuse...we're all different humans.

Snazzy

You obviously haven't been around here long enough. He's been repeating this same "refreshing" viewpoint constantly for at least 2 years. Copy/Pasted i might add. Gyro is a great guy I'm sure but... well...

The mic vs. mixer board thing was an analogy...

IMHO Williams < Casios and everyone here knows it, and yup, I've tried a Williams.

LesCharles, getting back closer to the subject, why do you think companies put light action graded touch keyboards on their pianos?

I'm thinking of those made by Yamaha, for example, the NP-30, and some by Casio as well.

What's the purpose behind it, in your view?

I know these instruments sell extremely well from my buddies who are in the retail end of it....who would buy such a curious blend of actions?

Snazzy

I believe that a digital piano's goal is to replicate acoustic pianos as accurately as possible - even if it means incorporating some 'necessary evils' ie escapement and graded touch.

Also, many digital piano players also play acoustic (sometimes professionally) and will not accept something that is not as close to the real thing as possible.

Benefits may include:
-Authenticity/Realism
-Dynamic Control
-Ease of Transition back to acoustic, and/or from an acoustic
-Previous Familiarity with graded touch on acoustic
-I'll think of others

Thanks for asking!

EDIT: Did you mean acoustic pianos? If so I really have no idea. My guess is that it's a Newton Law that can't be fully avoided, or that's just the way that it's been for hundreds of years so it's accepted.

No, not quite, my friend...I'm wondering why Yamaha and Casio digital pianos use light action (unweighted), but it is graded from bottom to top, similar to graded weighted hammer, but, of course with much less resistance.


You have played a Yamaha NP-30, or a Casio with similar unweighted graded action.

Why would they use this, as it feels nothing like a piano?

Snazzy

snazzyplayer I am pretty sure that every single piano which is advertised with "graded" action is supposed to emulate perfectly the real feel of a piano. so when it says graded hammer action, they mean to sell you a completely realistic piano. some of these digital pianos have springs and obviously they feel like synths, even if the spring is just as hard to press as a piano it doesn't feel the same. of course if you build a digital piano with springs instead of weighted keys it will be hundreds of dollars cheaper and weigh half as much.

I suppose it's possible one day they will find some kind of mechanical spring that will perfectly emulate a real piano, that's the goal anyway, but to the average consumer, if you are buying piano A with springs that costs $500 less than than piano B with weights they won't care that it uses unweighted keys as long as there is some sort of half ass effort to make it feel somewhat like a piano, or at least more like a piano than an accordian.

So, Joe, do you think the Yamaha NP-30, that has unweighted graded action, feels as much like a piano, as a digital that has weighted graded hammer action, as on the Yamaha P-85?

Why would a manufacturer use graded unweighted action in place of graded weighted hammer action? What would be it's purpose?

I think you might be missing the crux of my question.

Snazzy

Hi everybody.

First I'll say that I've spent a lot of years playing guitar (classical, acoustic and electric). I also owned an upright piano (W.H. Barnes) and some keyboards too. Now I'm waiting for a Kawai CN32.

My acoustic piano was a second hand, and came in a very bad condition. I worked a lot trying to improve its state, and get it a little better.

Well, I say that because I know what's the feeling of a "real" instrument, and I preffer it all the way.

I remember the feeling of the vibrations on the keys of the acoustic piano, the response to the touch, the action of the pedals... even I could say that you have a better feeling when playing guitar, your hands directly on the strings (sorry, I loved piano, then guitar and now I returning to piano ;-)).

As you guess, I'm talking about expression and feeling... and thats the reason to look for a graded keyboard if yo want to play the piano (acoustic or digital). The Kawai keyboard and response was very familiar to me, because I've played an acoustic. This doesn't mean electric keyboards are a bad option, I enjoy a lot playing mine, but I miss the feedback of a real piano. Anyway, I know that a digital piano will not be able to produce that feeling (who knows in the future), but there are options very close.

Digital pianos try to get all the advantages of a real piano, and dismiss the "worst" (volume, tunning...), and in fact, one of the best things is the graded hammer action.

Trying out a Kawai DP recently, I noticed there was quite a bit of vibration in the keys. I don't know if this is a deliberate design decision by Kawai, or just some kind of random resonance. But it was conspicuous, because normally the keys on a DP feel "dead", and I think it was only one Kawai model that seemed to "buzz" like that. Of course the AvantGrand does feature key vibration, but I don't recall reading anything similar about Kawais...

I have not yet played a digital that feels or sounds exactly like a real grand piano.

Some have come very close but digital pianos are basically all the same as far as feedback is concerned.

Sure, some of them even have actual grand piano actions, but they still have hardly any more soul than when digitals first came out, because they all do not give realistic tactile feedback. The keys feel like they are connected to hammers, but these hammers do not feel like they are in a real piano.

All, that is, except the Yamaha Avant Grand...that is a piano with the soul of an acoustic grand piano. It is a piano that makes you feel like you are playing a real grand piano.

Yet, it has all the benefits of a digital piano. Brilliant!

I can see other brands attempt to copy the Avant Grands incredible soul, but, Yamaha was first.

I'm seriously thinking about getting one for my master bedroom.

Snazzy

Martin,

I think someone forgot to tighten a few bolts and screws in that Kawai ...every one I've played is as dead as the rest of the digitals.

They make pretty good digitals, but no where near as realistic as the Avant Grand.

I believe Yamaha has raised the bar considerably in regards to tactile feedback.

Snazzy

I think Yamaha has always take advantage from the rest, but I chose the Kawai for some personal reaons.

I remember have read about something similar to keyboard vibration, but I can't remember brand or model, but the idea is there. Perhaps, it coul be possible due to the speakers vibration. If a mobile phone can vibrate, why not a piano key?

That can be a very good expresion improvement, in the same way that graded hammer action is fantastic for the accuracy.

I'm certainly not knocking the Kawai products, Angel...they make exceptionally fine digital pianos. I'm sure you will be more than pleased with your new instrument.

The digital pianos I have presently, do not give feedback like the Avant Grand, and they are very satisfactory, although my Yamaha CP-300 does give a nice impression of a piano sounding right in front of you, but that's because of it's very powerful speaker system.

Most important is how the instrument makes you feel as you play.

My 20 year old Roland HP-1700 still gives me a rush when I play it.

Snazzy

Well I think I have my answer to this question, that that is:

_All_ acoustic pianos have scaled hammer action.

In that case, it's clear that they'd do it on a digital to come closer to the feel of an acoustic.

(I had previously believed that only grand pianos had scaled actions -- i.e., the bass keys heavier than the treble -- and not upright pianos, and thought it must be considered an advantage over uprights, but wasn't sure why.)

Yes, Sean, but why would some digitals have scaled, or graded actions that are unweighted...much like a synth action on a portable keyboard?

What would be the benefits, other than a tad more control in the bass, and a lighter weighted instrument?

Yamaha calls the action, Graded Soft-Touch...I don't know what Casio calls theirs.

Maybe it is an expense issue?

I found a review on the 'Net that may explain a bit.

The Yamaha NP30 may not come with a weighted action keyboard but I love the Graded Soft-Touch keyboard it comes with. It has different levels of resistance in different ranges of the keyboard. I guess you can't have your cake and eat it as moving hammers would have made the Yamaha NP 30 a heavy instrument. This lightweight digital piano is perfect for pianists looking to take their music anywhere.

Snazzy

Yes, the AvantGrand seems to be great. I wanted to try the N3 the other day too, but unfortunately somebody else was playing it the whole time I was in the store. They need to introduce an AvantGrand time limit. They also had a relatively low-price acoustic grand which I played instead, and my impression was that my playing on the grand drowned out the sound of all the other DPs, including the N3. So in the end I would have preferred the acoustic, except that playing softly on it was next to impossible.

DPs, even the N3, still seem to have a slightly weak sound compared to an acoustic--although in the case of the P-85, I just got myself the wooden stand, and the sound is much improved, because the speakers at the bottom are no longer obstructed by a table...

Maybe I should take another trip to the store, to see if I can try the N3 and which one of the Kawai DPs it was exactly that "buzzed".

I suppose if the volume is turned up enough, you will always feel a little vibration in the keys, but in this case the volume was not set exceptionally high.

Martin,

At first I thought the Avant Grand was all hype...till I played it.

Very nearly got my money that day, but I'm doing some remodeling, and will wait until it's done before I indulge myself in the pleasure of the Avant Grand experience.

Imagine if Roland's V-Piano had this kind of tactile feedback?

That's all it's missing, in my opinion.

My CP-300 will transmit some vibrations from it's powerful speaker system, even at lower volumes, but it does not feel anything like the response from the Avant Grand...else, I'd stick with the former.

I think you'll be as impressed as I was.

Snazzy

Yes, I was impressed, both by the N2 and N3 (but I preferred the N3). On the cheap acoustic, it was simply to difficult to produce anything but a booming volume, so that's where the N3 is much, much better.

The Kawai vibration mystery piano turned out to have been a CN-22. I felt some vibration at C3, and a slight hint at C4. I also noticed the same effect on a Casio Celviano. So no, it's nothing like the AvantGrand, because it's just limited to two octaves or so...

I also liked the ugly duckling of DPs, the SP-250, quite a bit, particularly the non-piano patches like choir, harpsichord, and guitar. And the piano patch sounded much better over its built-in speakers than the web site demo over headphones. It's pretty unfortunate the whole device looks like something out of the 1972 Radio Shack catalogue...

Martin,

I've got four digital pianos...four...and I still want that Avant Grand!

It's like a friend of mine says, "I never tell people how many keyboards I went through...if they suspect I’m crazy, I don’t want to confirm it."

The Korg SP-250 is like that ugly girl (or guy, ladies!) that can dance like a sonofagun and is a great time, but you wouldn't want to take them home.

The new SV-1 isn't much handsomer, but it has a retro look rather than an old look...haven't tried one yet....have you?

I really dislike software pianos...I want an actual instrument...I think that's why the Avant Grand appeals to me so much. It's like my Hammond B-3 and has an "alive" feeling...Rhodes and Wurly pianos are like that, too, although the latter is just too much hassle keeping in tune with all that adding solder, and filing it off. Arrrgghh!

I'm looking forward to your impressions of the Avant Grand, as you seem quite open minded and unbiased about what will work for you.

Snazzy

snazzy, like I said before, the whole purpose behind the yamaha np-30 having unweighted graded is that it is supposed to emulate a real piano, even if it feels like a toy, that's as close as yamaha can get to a real piano using springs. the yamaha p-85 which uses weights has a much better feel, there is absolutely on question there.

people will buy the unweighted piano for two reasons 1) it is about $300 cheaper, and 2) it is about 20 pounds lighter.

It's really unfortunate that some home pianists can't afford the p-85. There's no question for a home pianist, if you can afford it, you buy the weighted hammers, but for some people, that extra $300 is just too much.

For stage performers though, it's the 20 pounds. My brother says he got tired of gigging with a weighted piano because it was breaking his back.

So at a guess I'd say 90% of the people buy the unweighted pianos for cost and 10% because they are gigging musicians that don't want the extra weight.

I see your point, Edt...I guess I'm kind of wondering just how light it has to be to give up the weighted graded hammer.

Yamaha's P-85 weighs 25 lbs...practically unheard of a few years ago, where the de riguer was at least 50 lbs, not counting the hard shell road case.

The P-85 is light enough to be carried in a gig bag, if'n you're doing your own lugging...that's got to be light enough for most anyone!

Casio makes similar weighted actions that are just as light.

The NP-30's action is not a disgrace, but neither is it a decent representation of a piano's feel...it does, however, seem to make a terrific add-on keyboard for arranger players.

I guess it could be the cost...I can't imagine being that stuck for cash, that I couldn't go the extra bit and get the real deal action.

Then, again, not everyone is wealthy like you and I.

Snazzy

snazzyplayer, you own four digital pianos *and* a B3?!

Goodness, you must have a very large home!

Cheers,
James
x

Actually, I did want to take it home. Maybe it was just because my Bach pieces came out right and even the improvisation sounded comparatively inspired, so it left a good first impression. Just like with an acoustic, the secret is getting yourself an instrument that makes your playing seem better than it really is. But the SP-250 is a bit too heavy for my taste, so my P-85 has nothing to fear at this point...



I suppose the SV-1 must look good to somebody with a dial fetish. Me, I prefer something minimalist like the P-85 or even the AvantGrand, where you mainly see the piano keys and not a lot of other buttons, sliders, and bright LEDs.

I have tried the SV-1 very briefly. Is that glowing thing on the left a tube amplifier? Instead of a 1980s Whitney Houston DX7 e-piano sound, an acoustic piano patch was selected, which was the last thing I had expected! I recoiled with horror, and I think my brain had to reboot itself because of the total disconnect between what I saw and heard. It's as if somebody plays a fiddle and what you hear is a tuba. A little disconcerting at first. The feel of the keys was also not that great, especially compared to the SP-250 right next to it.

But I still like the round shape and more organic-looking retro design, there are enough sharp edges on most DPs anyway. What people like about acoustic grands are also the elegant curves, so it was only a question of time until a DP manufacturer tried to create a "softer" design. I feel the Apple iPiano is right around the corner...



Software pianos can be fun from time to time, but I think they are too much of a hassle to use them all the time. Here are some interesting photos where an old upright case has been "modded" with a Yamaha keyboard and Pianoteq on a PC, basically creating a DIY AvantGrand (more or less): http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...tml#Post1294809

Well, he gives his home as "Earth", I'd say that's about as large as it gets.

Actually James, I have two homes.

I own four digital pianos, plus five arrangers...a Roland E-80, a Korg PA2XPro, a Tyros3, a PSR-S910, and a PSR-E413.

I sort of collect instruments, although all are being used, and none are just for the sake of rarity.

I also have several synthesizers...a very rare Yamaha GS-1, an even more rare Korg PS-3200, a Roland JX-10, a PPG Wave 2.3, and several rack-mount units...a Kawai K3M, Korg Poly-61M, and a Yamaha TX-802.

They all work, and they are all up to spec...the Korg PS-3200 was my most recent...it had been stored almost from new and was mint...bought it from a guy in Canada, who also sold me the Yamaha GS-1.

And, there's the '57 Hammond B-3, and Leslie 147RV, and a Fender Rhodes 73 that's presently being overhauled/restored...it was in rough shape, but has a valuable history and serial number.

It's a passion of mine, both professionally, and for fun.

One of my homes is mostly taken up with my studio (my play-room).

I'm basically retired from the business, and am now living an "under the radar" lifestyle.

I'm getting an Avant Grand after the new year.

Thanks for your interest....what are you currently playing/using?

Snazzy

snazzy, wow that's an incredible collection!

I have to say, I was already rather jealous about your B3, but after reading that you also have a Leslie and a vintage Rhodes at your disposal...well, I'm positively green with envy! You truly live within a keyboard playground.



Well that's got to be the icing on the cake, surely!



As noted in my profile, I only have two instruments at home - an old Korg X1 X5 (purchased second hand while living in Tokyo) and a Nord Electro 2 (on something of a long term loan from a friend who moved to the US earlier in the year).

I am undoubtedly a dial fetish, as to my eyes, the SV-1 looks absolutely terrific. The retro styling is fantastic, and that glowing tube (which I gather actually 'warms' the sound and is far more than just eye-candy) is fantastic.



Do the SV-1 and SP-250 not share the same keyboard action?

http://www.korg.com/Product.aspx?pd=562
http://www.korg.com/Product.aspx?pd=134

Cheers,
James
x

EDIT: Korg X5, not X1 (sorry)

The Korg SV-1 looks nice, suitably retro, almost Buck Rogers old Sci-fi...Buckaroo Banzai.

I believe it uses the same action as the SP-250...Korg apparently has been using Fatar actions for some time.

Early Fatars weren't the best...lots of issues and clickity clacks...that's been looked after...mostly.

The Kawai K3M was a lucky find...the 3's are a bit rare...it does guitar and plucky sounds reasonably well, but it's sound is more "polite" rather than distinctive, although it layers well with just about anything.

Using the 128 harmonics to create your own waveform is the way to wilder sounds, but without a software editor, it really has to be done blind, and to an extent, deaf, since you cannot hear the changes being made.

The Korg PS-3200 is my favorite...all it needed was a new connector chord from the keyboard to the main unit...that was done for me before I bought it. It's 48 note keyboard is fully polyphonic...16 patch memories...terrific analog sound.

The GS-1 has been retrofitted with MIDI and an expanded memory...it is 8 operator FM (the DX-7 was 6) and it sounds great...lovely 88 note weighted keyboard with aftertouch.

The JX-10 is digital yet lush, and the PPG is just crazy....sort of like a box of wildly colored crayons.

I'm not too familiar with the Korg X1 I've used an X3; much like a baby 01/W...I am currently in the process of obtaining a Korg Wavestation...it's being checked out, as it is over 15 years old.

The SV-1 looks very promising...the Rhodes patches I've heard are great...the acoustic pianos sounded a little thin in the demos...will you be able to try one soon?

Except for the Korg PS-3200, the Yamaha GS-1, and the B-3/Leslie, all my keyboards were relatively inexpensive. The arrangers were bought using older arrangers as trade-ins....it didn't cost all that much to upgrade, as I look after my gear, almost fanatically. I've had the Roland HP-1700 apart several times , as well as the Leslie...the B-3 is maintained by a specialist.

I'm a non-smoker, non-drinker, non-drug user, kind of guy, so I have to indulge in some kind of habit.

The Avant Grand looks like my next hit of keyboard Ecstasy.

Have you considered or have you played the Roland V-Piano? I think it's features will be soon in less expensive instruments, with better controller options (pitch bend/mod), and access to SuperNatural tones.

Snazzy

Snazzy, thank you for your post.

There's lots of great stuff to reply to, however I'm a little busy at the moment.

My apologies I wrote Korg X1 when I ought to have written Korg X5. Either way, it seldom gets used these days (I only have a very small one room apartment), however its sounds are surprisingly good, given its maturity.

The V-Piano is a brute. A beautiful brute, but a brute none the less. I spent a little while playing one earlier in the year and was extremely impressed with the action. It was *very* playable, while the purely modelled sound was extremely impressive. I am glad to see this new technology trickle down to the more affordable instruments, and fully expect to see a new range of RD and FP instruments offering similar capabilities in the near future. Roland is undoubtedly driving innovation in this area.

Cheers,
James
x

I guess the bottom line is that we all benefit from the intense competitiveness in this segment of the digital piano...the high-end stuff.

I remember playing the Yamaha DGT2a Gran Touch Piano when it was first introduced, and saying to myself, that this was about as far as a digital could be taken.

The Avant Grand is surely an off-spring of the Gran Touch, as will there be little V-Piano progenies in music store showrooms in the not too distant future.

I have to check and see when the local store is getting the Korg SV-1...should be fun.

Snazzy

To me the action of the SV-1 seemed a little lighter than the SP-250. Maybe this was just an illusion (when you hear an instrument, it's difficult to separate touch and sound completely, so I suppose one would have to compare actions with the volume at zero).

The V-Piano is nice, but it sounds too fake and ugly in some passages. So I'd say the AvantGrand is still superior.

I tried the V Piano (best to tell with good headphones) and found:

pros:
the bass is rich and exciting
the action is so fast and very realistic that you can play octaves as fast as you can and then some as the mechanism seems to handle anything I could throw at it
the good sound in the bass makes you want to play faster and louder and still sounds good

cons:
the notes from just below middle C to a few octaves above (a crucial part of any piano), sounds not pleasing to my ear (as if they put in way, way too many ingredients in the cake and totally ruined the taste) - single notes sounded very displeasing and ugly (the best way to describe it) and so did the chords - really, really put me off the whole thing.

My conclusion was that the ideal piano would be... the Modus f11 from Yamaha, but with Steinway samples and upgraded speakers!! Why can't Yamaha sample Steinways?

Is it a copyright issue?

Or maybe they should swallow their pride and just do it!!!

I must say that I'm with you on that statement.

It has been my experience, that pretty well every Roland digital is weak in that area of the keyboard.

A buddy of mine thought it was a key contact strip issue, but when we transposed the piano, the notes still exhibited the same characteristics.

On my ancient Roland HP-1700, which uses SAS (Structured Adaptive Synthesis) there is evenness from top to bottom, which is why I find it unusual that the V-Piano is weak in that area, because I think it's technology is a descendant of SAS.

My Roland E-80's Ac. Pianos have the same characteristics as the newer Roland digital pianos...weak in the same area.

Perhaps it is a characteristic of the present line; I know I would try that key area (no pun intended) before I plunked down any hard cash.

BTW...I've got a buyer for my E-80, so I'm going for the Yamaha Avant Grand N3, a little sooner than expected...I'm more excited than a flea on a fat dog.

Snazzy

HI Snazzy,

Yes, let us know how you go with the Avant Grand N3! On a youtube video it sounds impressive. Will have to try one out if there's one is a shop : )

The primary purpose, I believe, was to have a very portable keyboard, good for gigs. Weighted keys add much to the overall weight.

The Yamaha P-85 weighs 25 lbs...lighter than many portable keyboards, and it has a superb 88 note weighted graded hammer action keyboard.

Ain't that light enough?

Snazzy

The NP-30 comes in at 12 lbs. It's more practical for many, both men and women, when they have to travel to gigs with it.

ETA: In my case, I didn't want a digital with weighted keys because I live in an apt. and had read in various forums that digitals with weighted keys, even semi-weighted, could be heard in rooms/apts below. The speakers are puny but with headphones or hooked up to my stereo system the NP-30 sounds fine.

Of course it can be more practical...I bought one...however, the action is no where near the realistic piano feel of the P-85.

For the sake of only 12 lbs heavier, and weighing in at 25 lbs, I'd be more likely to use the P-85.

25 lbs! My gast has never been so flabbered...I have electric razors heavier than that!

If you're buying strictly on price and sticking to a strict budget, then by all means, buy the NP-30...it is cheaper.

If you want a realistic piano, with a very reasonable weight, and a real hammer action, go for the P-85.

As for size...they are both about the same width.

Snazzy

I am on a strict budget.

But also, as I added to my above post:

In my case, I didn't want a digital with weighted keys because I live in an apt. and had read in various forums that digitals with weighted keys, even semi-weighted, could be heard in rooms/apts below. The speakers are puny but with headphones or hooked up to my stereo system the NP-30 sounds fine.

I've accepted the fact that this is what it is, and as people have mastered all the precursors of the modern piano, I have to make do and master this.

Janlo- take heart in the fact that early Forte Pianos, particularly those with the Viennese action, had a very light key down weight relative to todays actions and didn't seem to have adversely effected guys like Beethoven.

I understand better now...I posted before seeing your first reply.

Sorry if I seemed a bit strong armed...I'm very passionate about music and keyboards, and I tend to get rather involved.

I like the NP-30 for what it is too...that's why I bought one. Certainly you can't go wrong, and the piano is rugged and reliable, and the piano sound itself is pretty well identical to the one in the P-85...my friend's kids put hers through the wringer and it hasn't missed a note.

I think you'll be more than satisfied with it...I like the layering feature and piano with strings is simply inspiring.

Snazzy