I'm looking to buy a grey market Kawai from the 1980's and don't know if the risk is real that something could go wrong?

What's the best argument for why grey market pianos are a higher risk piano? Is it that the replacement parts are tougher to get thereby making it more expensive to have potential work done, or is it that the humidity difference is going to increase likelihood of the soundboard cracking.

Has anyone else heard that the humidity concerns may have been sufficiently addressed in the 1960's or 70's. Not sure if this was salesman-speak or supported by fact. I'm pretty sure the parts replacement argument is something that is
either a Yamaha only problem or not a problem at all.

Any advice would be much appreciated.

WHAT is "grey market"??

Have you done a search on the term yet? You will find a huge amount of discussion on this topic if you search.

Don Mannino

As a matter of fact I did and I didn't gather how it would apply to pianos.

Good idea to avoid any piano from the sixties or seventies if you can afford something better.

For a good general background on the grey market issue, click on the Piano Buyer link in the right column and navigate your way to page 49. There is a two-column article writen by Larry Fine. The info is fair and balanced.

A few things not mentioned there...

Do not assume the age represented to you to be correct. Many times it isn't. Eyeball the serial number on the piano, jot it down and google Yamaha piano age or Kawai piano age to get you to the age/serial number charts and info of the respective companies.

Do not believe that Yamaha or Kawai factories have refurbished or rebuilt these pianos in any way. They haven't. Independent entrepeneurs have gone over them to make them presentable.

Do not be swayed by the shiny cabinet and 'looks-like-new' appearance. They all have that. Pay an independent tech to assess the condition of any used piano (grey or not) that you are serious about buying. If the seller refuses, move on.

Do not assume that a store warranty covers a slow erosion of performance due to wear and tear. It doesn't.

Do not assume that a grey-market piano came from Japan. Grey marketeers are now all over Asia scouring for buying opportunities.


The general guidance is that newer is better, and that buying one of these older than 15 or at the most 20 years is not a good idea. However, in all honesty, I have played many samples from the mid eighties that are more than satisfactory. A good tech can help you decide in these cases.

Thanks for pointing us to that article by Larry Fine.

And I can see more clearly why I didn't readily "get" the grey market thing -- and really I still don't.

My first impression, from when I looked it up before, was that it's not particularly different than any other type or category of used pianos. (I mean for us here in the U.S., as opposed to for those in Japan, who I realize have an attitude about this, although I don't understand that either.)

And I still don't see how it is.

I gather from the article that in some quarters, these pianos have been regarded as not suited for the American climate, and perhaps THAT is the reason for considering these pianos separately from used pianos in general. But, the article essentially says this isn't a special or unique issue for these pianos. Which puts it right back to my initial gut impression. It seems to me that we don't need to worry about anything besides the things we'd worry about on any used piano -- but of course that's plenty.

Mind you, I don't mean you need to explain it to me, especially because it seems everyone else knows, and gets it.
I'm just saying.

I really don't know if everyone 'gets it'. It's hotly debated. There are many different opinions. I was just replying to the OP's questions.

To give you an idea, just imagine you buy a 1992 U-3 that is in actuality a 1976 U-3. The exterior appearance is pristine. The selling retailer shows you an invoice which shows that the exporter has rated it as A grade.

The piano has lived its whole life in a saturated state of sub-tropical humidity with intermittent bursts of hot dry air from kerosone space heaters in the winter. It already has some string rust and considerable wear and tear on parts made of organic materials. No wood deformation is visible, but its appearance is imminent. Just recently your high-polish beauty has crossed the Pacific in a stifling container with no climate control.You are now welcoming it to your SoCal desert climate. Your retailer is on the verge of going out of business.

Is this compilation of problems likely to be present in one purchase? No, not really, but any one or several could be in play on a grey-market purchase.

Yes......but doesn't one have to wonder and worry about those kinds of things on ANY used piano? You never really know where they've been and what they've been through.
That's my point.

I bought a grey market (otherwise known as "world" market) Yamaha 1980 UX-3 piano last week from a qualified tech.

The inside and outside of the piano is like new. It has hardly been used which is easy to see from the feel of the action and the felt on the hammers. It sounds wonderful and has a 5-year warranty.

As long as you buy from a local, reputable expert I see no problem with buying these pianos. Especially at the price you pay.

Parts are readily available from sources other than the original manufacturer. Any damage from humidity can be readily identified by the technician.

Of course, maybe I was just lucky. But for the price I didn't bet the farm on it.

Well, you did some homework, so maybe it's not luck. On the other hand, you say authoritatively that the piano is like new based on the feel of the action and the condition of the hammer felt. I would never leap to that conclusion myself.

I recall you asked questions here, and I assume you verified age as well. If you say that your price is better than what you would have had to pay for a non-grey 1981 Yamaha U3, I'll take your word for it. Whether you bet the farm is subject to how much acreage you have.

The X series have a certain appeal since they are only available as greys. Same is true of the U2, another very nice model. Scarcity is a good selling point. The salespro (tech, 'tech', or non-tech) can and will say that the Japanese save the best for themselves. I've played a number of X's. I find them attractive myself, especially the ones with the silent play feature, but I wouldn't buy one 30 years old even if the hammer felt looked brand new. Hammer felt is the tip of the iceberg. I also would not rely on the opinion of a self-described tech selling pianos. I'd hire my own to look out for me. But all this is a personal judgment call that takes into account your instincts about the seller.

There are many good greys in people's homes and in showrooms of responsible dealers, and then there are the others. In my town, two sisters sell pianos off Craigslist. They post the same bait and switch ad continuously: a U3 for under 3k. Call them and you'll find it's already gone (what a bummer!), but they just so happen to have a couple of others (isn't life grand!). They'll tell you they are piano teachers who assist their students in selling pianos. (What a noble public service!!) Visit their 'showroom' and you'll see a garage full of old pianos. I'm pretty sure you would have walked away from that scene, but not everyone does. I'm not trying to bring doom and gloom to you, just to give a balanced picture.

Mark Cannon,

I see your point. Your point is to plead ignorance while at the same time advancing your own opinion. To me that's a little obtuse, but if it winds your clock, that's fine. There have been many grey-market orgies here on this forum. I have no wish to participate in another. My interest was in answering the OP's questions, nothing more than that.

miggil,

Please read the Kawai BL-61 thread started today as an example of a grey-market deal gone wrong.

When I see something that's new to me, I try to evaluate it 'from the ground up,' i.e. not assuming anything automatically. It's a little different perhaps than how most people approach things and sometimes makes me seem dumb and often obnoxious.

When I saw this thread, I first just checked a bit online regarding what "grey market" means, and then I looked carefully at everything that has been posted on here, including reading that article by Larry Fine. None of that indicates anything fundamentally different than what we have to consider when we're buying any used piano. As I said, I don't necessarily expect anyone to address further what I've said, because it looks like everyone else is comfortable with this distinction about "grey pianos."

But if you do want to address it, please lose the negative judgmentality and address it: what is there about any of this that's different from what we ought to prudently consider on any used piano?

Nobody has said, and the article by Larry Fine doesn't either.

Mark Cannon,

This thread is not all about you. It's about the OP's question. If you're in the market for a grey or for a boring contentious debate leading nowhere, start a thread of your own.

*sigh*

Here are my beefs with the Gray Market sales:

1. Many are grossly misrepresented in age. One new post on the forum today re. this.

2. Many are grossly misrepresented in condition. As other have posted, most are dusted and polished but the mechanicals are original and worn.

3. Many come from heavy institutional use and bear wear way beyond their serial number calendar years.

4. A disproportionate number, compared to general used, do in fact have moisture related problems. This issue transends the "seasoned for destination" discussion and relates more to living their 20 to 30 year lives in a much more humid climate.

You really need to look that piano over or have someone else do it for you. I have a 1980 Kawai US60 and it has been a very solid piano. The horror stories you read on this forum may be true but there are some good grey market pianos as well.

After living with our grey market piano for a couple years I do realize that the dealer and the "technicians" who worked on it did not do that good a job. They will most likely keep the work on that piano to a minimum in order to get it out the door ASAP and with as little investment in it as possible. I actually did my own adjusting on the action and got it better than it ever has been and my tuning has been more stable as well.

After Christmas, I hope to touch up the tuning, mainly to get the beats better. I also plan on voicing it.

OT



(bolding is mine)

Seems a little smug to me Of course, I'm not a "shrink" as you so cutely call yourself in your profile, so perhaps I don't know these things :\

Back to the regularly scheduled programming

Cathy

Perhaps not so OT,

Here's the excerpt in context.

When I see something that's new to me, I try to evaluate it 'from the ground up,' i.e. not assuming anything automatically. It's a little different perhaps than how most people approach things and sometimes makes me seem dumb and often obnoxious.

When I saw this thread, I first just checked a bit online regarding what "grey market" means, and then I looked carefully at everything that has been posted on here, including reading that article by Larry Fine. None of that indicates anything fundamentally different than what we have to consider when we're buying any used piano. As I said, I don't necessarily expect anyone to address further what I've said, because it looks like everyone else is comfortable with this distinction about "grey pianos."

A shrink huh? There's a pattern here I can't figure out.

Maybe veering a bit toward the autobiographical for someone hitching a ride on another's thread question? 750 posts in 19 days? Maybe a need to be heard and appreciated? Who knows?

On the grey market issue, regardless of what is said, what cautionary information is posted, or how many times the piñata is bashed open, emptied and reloaded, people will do what people will do. The pianos cater to a segment need of sellers and buyers. They're not going away.

And many are not.

The overwhelming majority don't have these problems and are not misrepresented.

Thanks Steve. You are right. At least as far as my several months of piano shopping. I did not come across one grey market piano that was in bad condition. I did see a few trade ins that were rough.

why don't you back off William. I'm sure if we took a members poll here you wouldn't come out smelling clean as a daisy in the egocentricity department. You give great advice most of the time in a remarkably eloquent way but taking the time to throw stones at someone else's opinions and ways of 'being' isn't your place. Let the OP complain if *their* thread isn't being sufficiently replied to.

Steve has taken me to task about a perceived slur to piano dealers out there. That is not the case, and never my intention. I state for the record that I believe that most of the nonsense and misrepresentation comes from non-traditional non-B&M sellers of gray market Yamahas and Kawais. These come in the form of those who;
1. Sell from garages, storage units, mini warehouses and studios.
2. Sell under the guises of technicians, teachers, insurance liquidators, "wholesalers", and other scams.
3. Sell through Craigs List, Ebay, Penny Saver, classified, and cards on bulletin boards at schools and studios.

This off the grid non-traditional gray market counter culture sales exists in several markets. It is a response to demand for 48" and 52" Yamahas and Kawais in the under $4k range that seems to be insatiable. It is my genuine impression that many more gray market pianos are sold through this network than traditional dealers.

Steve writes, "The overwhelming majority...are not misrepresented." There are no statistics to prove out one way or the other, but I get an awful lot of feedback from customers and colleagues and this forum that says different.

I am not saying "don't buy a gray market piano." I am saying don't necessarily trust what you are told about these and what you think you can see. Varify the age by serial number and pay a tech to give you your own report on actual condition. Who can argue with this advice on any used piano.

Traditional piano dealers out there, I love you. I am you.

Marty,

Thank you for clarifying your position.

I agree with most of what you say. The novice shopper should be wary. Trust buy verify, [Now where did I hear that before....I think it came from Southern California somewhere. Marty, was it you?]

Here's something else many people don't seem to know about the future of grey market pianos:

Once people come to their senses that buying a 20-30 old Japanese piano in today's market makes as much sense as buying a 23-30 years old Japanese car, they will hit the market in ways and numbers not exactly forseen.

Chances are they will go the same way like today's old uprights and/or postwar consoles.

For free....

Norbert

What can I say, nobody's perfect.

But anyway, I think I have it figured out, but then again maybe this will seem smug again.

I'm guessing......:

-- Some or many people feel these "grey market" pianos have a higher percentage of problems down the road than most other used pianos.

and.....

-- Most people don't necessarily feel they would need to be much suspicious in general when buying a used piano.

I would be suspicious about any used piano, and would want to get it checked out thoroughly.
So.....even if that first point is true -- which it's seeming like maybe it's not -- for someone who believes in closely checking out a used piano anyway, this wouldn't be a significant difference.

UNLESS......the imagined or known problems about the "grey market" pianos are of a sort that can't be detected by checking out the piano. However, from what I can tell, nobody has said that.

Did you maybe go out of your way to avoid the first person pronoun in your post?

Your assumption that this poster's use of first person pronouns is remarkably high may well be statistically erroneous. Maybe do a study on it and then get back to us.

That's what I gathered from Larry Fine's article -- and it seems to me that the identified issues can well be present in any used piano. The issue in common is, one needs to be circumspect and to get the piano checked out.

I'm puzzled by the dismissive and hostile reaction I've gotten in wondering what exactly is it (if anything) about "grey market" pianos that indicates we need to view the category in some different way. From Larry Fine's article and from your above post, it seems like indeed maybe we needn't.

AJF,

To answer your question, my experience with these pianos is mixed. I assume that is the case with anyone who has experience with them, as opposed to one of them or none of them.

Marty and Steve C. are both correct. SoCal is a tough piano market. The sleazebag 'retailers' Marty speaks of are real enough. Probably there is more of this garbage in SoCal and the Bay area than anywhere else in the US. Gross distortions of actual piano age are very common here, some occurring in surprising places.

Something Marty hasn't mentioned this time around is the sophisticated local marketing of some of the 'providers'. Unethical members of certain ethnicities find ways to reach out to locals of the same ethnicity and exploit them through the trust that comes from ethnic identification. That's a shame. Some of this networking involves piano teachers. That's a shame too. Also regrettable is the fact that anyone with a little coin can set himself or herself up as a dealer of these things.

I understand Steve's point too. A reputable dealer who carries greys in inventory is not going to throw away his reputation for short-term gain. There are a lot of legitimate dealers selling greys here. The only thing that gets me is that they all say that theirs are the pick of the litter. (woof woof ). That gets stale.

I can't agree with Norbert on this topic though. In fact, a couple of dealers that I know started to deal greys after and because of unfortunate relationships with Chinese brands; mot necessarily the pianos, but rather the poor product support, parts availability, attention to warranty claims, changes in the pipeline, delays in shipment, distributor/maker quarrels and other stuff that is peripheral to consumers but important to dealers in the short and long term.

I don't understand how anyone with any knowledge of the workings of this market segment could pass it off as no different from any other used piano purchase, but that's how it goes. Like I said before , people will do what people will do. People will think what people will think. All the hundreds of pages here on grey market pros and cons won't change much, if anything at all.

Until recently I thought gray market pianos were pianos that were distributed by the Asian mafia
I envisioned some small dilapidated and rusting pirate ship somewhere off the coast of the Philippines racing away from authorities to the sounds of gunfire and a rousing honky tonk rendition of Grieg's 'In the hall of the Mountain king'

Thanks to this forum I now know better:)

Then either try harder, or please forget about it.

I've been very specific in indicating my reasoning, and it seems to be backed up by some stuff on here, including Larry Fine's article.

So maybe take it up with Mr. Fine.