Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Digital Pianos - Electronic Pianos - Synths & Keyboards Scaled Hammer Action -- why?

snazzy, like I said before, the whole purpose behind the yamaha np-30 having unweighted graded is that it is supposed to emulate a real piano, even if it feels like a toy, that's as close as yamaha can get to a real piano using springs. the yamaha p-85 which uses weights has a much better feel, there is absolutely on question there.

people will buy the unweighted piano for two reasons 1) it is about $300 cheaper, and 2) it is about 20 pounds lighter.

It's really unfortunate that some home pianists can't afford the p-85. There's no question for a home pianist, if you can afford it, you buy the weighted hammers, but for some people, that extra $300 is just too much.

For stage performers though, it's the 20 pounds. My brother says he got tired of gigging with a weighted piano because it was breaking his back.

So at a guess I'd say 90% of the people buy the unweighted pianos for cost and 10% because they are gigging musicians that don't want the extra weight.

I see your point, Edt...I guess I'm kind of wondering just how light it has to be to give up the weighted graded hammer.

Yamaha's P-85 weighs 25 lbs...practically unheard of a few years ago, where the de riguer was at least 50 lbs, not counting the hard shell road case.

The P-85 is light enough to be carried in a gig bag, if'n you're doing your own lugging...that's got to be light enough for most anyone!

Casio makes similar weighted actions that are just as light.

The NP-30's action is not a disgrace, but neither is it a decent representation of a piano's feel...it does, however, seem to make a terrific add-on keyboard for arranger players.

I guess it could be the cost...I can't imagine being that stuck for cash, that I couldn't go the extra bit and get the real deal action.

Then, again, not everyone is wealthy like you and I.

Snazzy

snazzyplayer, you own four digital pianos *and* a B3?!

Goodness, you must have a very large home!

Cheers,
James
x

Actually, I did want to take it home. Maybe it was just because my Bach pieces came out right and even the improvisation sounded comparatively inspired, so it left a good first impression. Just like with an acoustic, the secret is getting yourself an instrument that makes your playing seem better than it really is. But the SP-250 is a bit too heavy for my taste, so my P-85 has nothing to fear at this point...



I suppose the SV-1 must look good to somebody with a dial fetish. Me, I prefer something minimalist like the P-85 or even the AvantGrand, where you mainly see the piano keys and not a lot of other buttons, sliders, and bright LEDs.

I have tried the SV-1 very briefly. Is that glowing thing on the left a tube amplifier? Instead of a 1980s Whitney Houston DX7 e-piano sound, an acoustic piano patch was selected, which was the last thing I had expected! I recoiled with horror, and I think my brain had to reboot itself because of the total disconnect between what I saw and heard. It's as if somebody plays a fiddle and what you hear is a tuba. A little disconcerting at first. The feel of the keys was also not that great, especially compared to the SP-250 right next to it.

But I still like the round shape and more organic-looking retro design, there are enough sharp edges on most DPs anyway. What people like about acoustic grands are also the elegant curves, so it was only a question of time until a DP manufacturer tried to create a "softer" design. I feel the Apple iPiano is right around the corner...



Software pianos can be fun from time to time, but I think they are too much of a hassle to use them all the time. Here are some interesting photos where an old upright case has been "modded" with a Yamaha keyboard and Pianoteq on a PC, basically creating a DIY AvantGrand (more or less): https://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubb...he%20case%20I%20made%20.html#Post1294809

Well, he gives his home as "Earth", I'd say that's about as large as it gets.

Actually James, I have two homes.

I own four digital pianos, plus five arrangers...a Roland E-80, a Korg PA2XPro, a Tyros3, a PSR-S910, and a PSR-E413.

I sort of collect instruments, although all are being used, and none are just for the sake of rarity.

I also have several synthesizers...a very rare Yamaha GS-1, an even more rare Korg PS-3200, a Roland JX-10, a PPG Wave 2.3, and several rack-mount units...a Kawai K3M, Korg Poly-61M, and a Yamaha TX-802.

They all work, and they are all up to spec...the Korg PS-3200 was my most recent...it had been stored almost from new and was mint...bought it from a guy in Canada, who also sold me the Yamaha GS-1.

And, there's the '57 Hammond B-3, and Leslie 147RV, and a Fender Rhodes 73 that's presently being overhauled/restored...it was in rough shape, but has a valuable history and serial number.

It's a passion of mine, both professionally, and for fun.

One of my homes is mostly taken up with my studio (my play-room).

I'm basically retired from the business, and am now living an "under the radar" lifestyle.

I'm getting an Avant Grand after the new year.

Thanks for your interest....what are you currently playing/using?

Snazzy

snazzy, wow that's an incredible collection!

I have to say, I was already rather jealous about your B3, but after reading that you also have a Leslie and a vintage Rhodes at your disposal...well, I'm positively green with envy! You truly live within a keyboard playground.



Well that's got to be the icing on the cake, surely!



As noted in my profile, I only have two instruments at home - an old Korg X1 X5 (purchased second hand while living in Tokyo) and a Nord Electro 2 (on something of a long term loan from a friend who moved to the US earlier in the year).

I am undoubtedly a dial fetish, as to my eyes, the SV-1 looks absolutely terrific. The retro styling is fantastic, and that glowing tube (which I gather actually 'warms' the sound and is far more than just eye-candy) is fantastic.



Do the SV-1 and SP-250 not share the same keyboard action?

http://www.korg.com/Product.aspx?pd=562
http://www.korg.com/Product.aspx?pd=134

Cheers,
James
x

EDIT: Korg X5, not X1 (sorry)

The Korg SV-1 looks nice, suitably retro, almost Buck Rogers old Sci-fi...Buckaroo Banzai.

I believe it uses the same action as the SP-250...Korg apparently has been using Fatar actions for some time.

Early Fatars weren't the best...lots of issues and clickity clacks...that's been looked after...mostly.

The Kawai K3M was a lucky find...the 3's are a bit rare...it does guitar and plucky sounds reasonably well, but it's sound is more "polite" rather than distinctive, although it layers well with just about anything.

Using the 128 harmonics to create your own waveform is the way to wilder sounds, but without a software editor, it really has to be done blind, and to an extent, deaf, since you cannot hear the changes being made.

The Korg PS-3200 is my favorite...all it needed was a new connector chord from the keyboard to the main unit...that was done for me before I bought it. It's 48 note keyboard is fully polyphonic...16 patch memories...terrific analog sound.

The GS-1 has been retrofitted with MIDI and an expanded memory...it is 8 operator FM (the DX-7 was 6) and it sounds great...lovely 88 note weighted keyboard with aftertouch.

The JX-10 is digital yet lush, and the PPG is just crazy....sort of like a box of wildly colored crayons.

I'm not too familiar with the Korg X1 I've used an X3; much like a baby 01/W...I am currently in the process of obtaining a Korg Wavestation...it's being checked out, as it is over 15 years old.

The SV-1 looks very promising...the Rhodes patches I've heard are great...the acoustic pianos sounded a little thin in the demos...will you be able to try one soon?

Except for the Korg PS-3200, the Yamaha GS-1, and the B-3/Leslie, all my keyboards were relatively inexpensive. The arrangers were bought using older arrangers as trade-ins....it didn't cost all that much to upgrade, as I look after my gear, almost fanatically. I've had the Roland HP-1700 apart several times , as well as the Leslie...the B-3 is maintained by a specialist.

I'm a non-smoker, non-drinker, non-drug user, kind of guy, so I have to indulge in some kind of habit.

The Avant Grand looks like my next hit of keyboard Ecstasy.

Have you considered or have you played the Roland V-Piano? I think it's features will be soon in less expensive instruments, with better controller options (pitch bend/mod), and access to SuperNatural tones.

Snazzy

Snazzy, thank you for your post.

There's lots of great stuff to reply to, however I'm a little busy at the moment.

My apologies I wrote Korg X1 when I ought to have written Korg X5. Either way, it seldom gets used these days (I only have a very small one room apartment), however its sounds are surprisingly good, given its maturity.

The V-Piano is a brute. A beautiful brute, but a brute none the less. I spent a little while playing one earlier in the year and was extremely impressed with the action. It was *very* playable, while the purely modelled sound was extremely impressive. I am glad to see this new technology trickle down to the more affordable instruments, and fully expect to see a new range of RD and FP instruments offering similar capabilities in the near future. Roland is undoubtedly driving innovation in this area.

Cheers,
James
x

I guess the bottom line is that we all benefit from the intense competitiveness in this segment of the digital piano...the high-end stuff.

I remember playing the Yamaha DGT2a Gran Touch Piano when it was first introduced, and saying to myself, that this was about as far as a digital could be taken.

The Avant Grand is surely an off-spring of the Gran Touch, as will there be little V-Piano progenies in music store showrooms in the not too distant future.

I have to check and see when the local store is getting the Korg SV-1...should be fun.

Snazzy

To me the action of the SV-1 seemed a little lighter than the SP-250. Maybe this was just an illusion (when you hear an instrument, it's difficult to separate touch and sound completely, so I suppose one would have to compare actions with the volume at zero).

The V-Piano is nice, but it sounds too fake and ugly in some passages. So I'd say the AvantGrand is still superior.

I tried the V Piano (best to tell with good headphones) and found:

pros:
the bass is rich and exciting
the action is so fast and very realistic that you can play octaves as fast as you can and then some as the mechanism seems to handle anything I could throw at it
the good sound in the bass makes you want to play faster and louder and still sounds good

cons:
the notes from just below middle C to a few octaves above (a crucial part of any piano), sounds not pleasing to my ear (as if they put in way, way too many ingredients in the cake and totally ruined the taste) - single notes sounded very displeasing and ugly (the best way to describe it) and so did the chords - really, really put me off the whole thing.

My conclusion was that the ideal piano would be... the Modus f11 from Yamaha, but with Steinway samples and upgraded speakers!! Why can't Yamaha sample Steinways?

Is it a copyright issue?

Or maybe they should swallow their pride and just do it!!!

I must say that I'm with you on that statement.

It has been my experience, that pretty well every Roland digital is weak in that area of the keyboard.

A buddy of mine thought it was a key contact strip issue, but when we transposed the piano, the notes still exhibited the same characteristics.

On my ancient Roland HP-1700, which uses SAS (Structured Adaptive Synthesis) there is evenness from top to bottom, which is why I find it unusual that the V-Piano is weak in that area, because I think it's technology is a descendant of SAS.

My Roland E-80's Ac. Pianos have the same characteristics as the newer Roland digital pianos...weak in the same area.

Perhaps it is a characteristic of the present line; I know I would try that key area (no pun intended) before I plunked down any hard cash.

BTW...I've got a buyer for my E-80, so I'm going for the Yamaha Avant Grand N3, a little sooner than expected...I'm more excited than a flea on a fat dog.

Snazzy

HI Snazzy,

Yes, let us know how you go with the Avant Grand N3! On a youtube video it sounds impressive. Will have to try one out if there's one is a shop : )

The primary purpose, I believe, was to have a very portable keyboard, good for gigs. Weighted keys add much to the overall weight.

The Yamaha P-85 weighs 25 lbs...lighter than many portable keyboards, and it has a superb 88 note weighted graded hammer action keyboard.

Ain't that light enough?

Snazzy

The NP-30 comes in at 12 lbs. It's more practical for many, both men and women, when they have to travel to gigs with it.

ETA: In my case, I didn't want a digital with weighted keys because I live in an apt. and had read in various forums that digitals with weighted keys, even semi-weighted, could be heard in rooms/apts below. The speakers are puny but with headphones or hooked up to my stereo system the NP-30 sounds fine.

Of course it can be more practical...I bought one...however, the action is no where near the realistic piano feel of the P-85.

For the sake of only 12 lbs heavier, and weighing in at 25 lbs, I'd be more likely to use the P-85.

25 lbs! My gast has never been so flabbered...I have electric razors heavier than that!

If you're buying strictly on price and sticking to a strict budget, then by all means, buy the NP-30...it is cheaper.

If you want a realistic piano, with a very reasonable weight, and a real hammer action, go for the P-85.

As for size...they are both about the same width.

Snazzy

I am on a strict budget.

But also, as I added to my above post:

In my case, I didn't want a digital with weighted keys because I live in an apt. and had read in various forums that digitals with weighted keys, even semi-weighted, could be heard in rooms/apts below. The speakers are puny but with headphones or hooked up to my stereo system the NP-30 sounds fine.

I've accepted the fact that this is what it is, and as people have mastered all the precursors of the modern piano, I have to make do and master this.

Janlo- take heart in the fact that early Forte Pianos, particularly those with the Viennese action, had a very light key down weight relative to todays actions and didn't seem to have adversely effected guys like Beethoven.