AJF,

I'm sure you've played some even if you didn't realize it at the time. Curiously enough, the stern grey market warnings given by Yamaha on its US and Aussie websites are not to be found on the Yamaha Canada Music site.


Your pirate ship off the coast of the Philippines isn't that far-fetched really. Some greys have appeared here from there. Greys are bought, exported, and resold all over Asia too from India to Malaysia.

I read some of larry fine's writing on the subject. I find it interesting that it is primarily material from Yamaha and Kawai. I do know that Yamaha has been fighting grey market selling of all their products, not just pianos, since it affects the price of their non grey market products. Limiting the supply is a sure way to keep prices higher and possibly push the buyer into a new instrument.

The line about parts caught my attention, since they are not going to re-engineer an instrument just because it is going to another country. They share parts.

The parts availability issue is a total nonissue if you ask me. When a piano goes out of warranty at 10 years,the distributor in this case Yamaha USA does not need or want everyone that owns a Yamaha piano and or their tuner/tech to call and order a pedal trapwork bushing. All the major piano supply houses throughout handle and are alloted all the miscellaneous parts whether Yamaha or Japanese aftermarket parts after that initial warranty period has expired. Yamaha is almost up to the 7 million mark whereas the USA probably houses a couple million of those. Could you imagine the flood of calls to Yamaha USA for a minute piano part of pianos 20-30 years old.

My argument as for gray market pianos for the 10th time is that of "Buyer Beware" Unfortunately many of the older crusty ones slip through into the marketplace to the unaware. Years back when I was importing containers of these so called gray market Yamaha & Kawai it was the reputable retail dealers that were buying the cost effective older ones not necessarily the garage operations.It was all about price to that unsuspecting RETAIL buyer. It was a known fact that the authorized Yamaha dealers carried gray market Kawai and vice versa.

It's all about condition,condition and condition and value for the $. Logically the newer vintage gray market pianos are and should be in better shape than the ancient artifacts so ...buy a newer one and scrutinize it's condition.(disclaimer /not always true)

One scenario which holds true in the real world not PW is the reality of that professional musician on a fixed budget that can not spring for that brand new U3 or YUS on that musician income but...could possibly swing a "low milage gray market "U3,UX1,UX30BL,UX50BL or ? at a fraction of the cost of new. The new lower line $ cost effective Yamaha uprts don't cut it for that pro discriminating player/buyer.

The older crusty Yamaha or Kawai whether they are gray market or not should not taint the newer low milage artist level mdls available to the pro musician today. I'm gonna post a couple pics tomorrow of fairly new preowned artist level gray market uprts.in the high 4-5 million serial #s. From a visual standpoint,you tell me whether you would consider one of these pianos for purchase.Until than...

Uh oh! Be careful about the self-promotion issue with that post! Also, bear in mind that the grey-market issue is not really about "a visual standpoint". There's no dispute that visually, whether they're low mileage or high mileage, 'fairly' new or less than fairly new, crusty, crust-removed, or crustless, they all stack up visually. As Craigen would tell you, the true test is the whiff test made after you flip the lid and stick your nose inside.

Looking through your present listed inventory, the range on your 'artist'-level upright greys would seem to be 1980 - 1992. I'm removing one Kawai NS (transferable warranty assumed to be non-grey) and one Yamaha U100SX (specialty item silent--quite appetizing). If we split the difference from 1980 to 1992, we'll get a mean value of 1986. Granted, your range as listed is 'fairly new' compared to most vendors, but in terms of actual age that's still 17 to 29 years old with an average of 23 years. To some people that's fairly old.

Also, every piano in your used inventory is described as mint. That might elicit trust from some shoppers, but raise some eyebrows with others. I know, I know. Yours are the pick of the litter, la creme de la creme, the most perfect of the pristine, but still.

Finally, the comparison of a new U3 to a pristine, low-mileage, 'fairly-new' artist-level grey U3 priced at a fraction of the new cost (hope I got in all the right adjectives) always leaves out the possibility of a used U3 that was sold as new in your own market and is also priced at a fraction of the cost. Admittedly, there aren't that many of those out there (which is part of the reason that the grey market flourishes), but if you find one and can choose between the one that had spent its life locally and the one that these days could come from god-knows-where, as you would say, it's a no-brainer.

The way I see it, at this point it's all out there on the table once again except for super-dry EMC, optimized EMC, and the three levels of seasoning for destination. Maybe someone will bring a well-seasoned casserole of that to the potluck.

Thanks Turandot. What if my soon to be 30 year old grey Kawai is in a relatively humid environment although it is in the US? (40% range)Is that OK? Will it begin to fall apart, since it was not meant to be in the US, which the Japanese assume is desert dry?

My only complaints about the piano is the lack of complete set up. There were a couple of double strikes that did not go away until I tweaked the action and they could have blown out or vacuumed up any dust in the case.

As far as the quality of the instrument, I was able to directly compare it to new Brodmans, Petroffs and a Schimmel. The Brodmans and Petroffs did not have a chance. The Schimmel was only one of two uprights I liked better and was the closest in quality to the piano we bought.

btw - if we decide to move up from this one, I would probably go with a larger Schimmel or an S&S K.

Turandot; Of course the true test of scrutiny of said piano is gonna be that of the tech assessment and how it plays and sounds etc. The visual reference is strictly to help reconvey an image that not all of these gray market pianos are the old,crusty,ex institutional pianos that reek of that old Selmer Mark VI saxophone case. I get the feeling that many persons are tainted to the idea of buying a gray market piano mainly subject to this fear factor that Yamaha USA has instilled with it's website allegations.

Maybe one of the Yamaha pros can comment why Yamaha USA has toned back considerably in it's website allegations that these gray market pianos can be uh... OK as opposed to their former allegations that gray market Yamahas were totally taboo. One reason may have been that in the marketplace,for a time, persons got this idea that Yamaha pianos were somewhat tempermental and could not be subjected to different climates. Kawai stayed silent and monopolized until Yamaha USA thought it better to retract and tone back their allegations at present. It is interesting that Kawai International never made Gray market an issue in the past until recently.

Turandot; You know by now that my present inventory on my website is not representative of my inventory. I would be changing that list every ten minutes. At present,only those that are of 4-5 million serial # are what I carry.

As for comparing that preowned nongray market Yamaha U3 vrs. that pristine gray market one,though both pianos may be of the same approximate vintage,condition,the nongray market piano will be near double the $ in the marketplace. So... again a reason $ to consider that gray market piano. Issues like this incite my attorney tendancies. I'm still gonna post some pics when I get to my showroom later.

A U1 is a U1!?

On a regular basis my prospects are told by others that the gray market U1 they are showing them has been "refurbished" by the Yamaha factory. They are told that all new Yamahas are now built in China, have plastic parts, and the older U1s are decidedly superior to the new ones. It has become nearly a universal mantra.

The vererated U1 has been made for over 35 years and has gone through several evolutions the provide for better performance, longevity, and use value. Full perimeter plate, nickel tuning pins, double felted hammers, slow close fall-boards, etc. are not found on or in U1s from the 70s and early 80s. They are not the same, but they are presented as the same or superior.

We council shoppers on a daily basis on the forum to employ a tech to survay used pianos. Over and over again they repeat the phrasing from the Craigs List or Ebay add as the piano is in "mint" condition. When they see these pianos they see the freshly polished brass and buffed cabinet and filed hammers with their own eyes pronounce it in "excellent condition". Faced with what the "seller" is telling them and what they are seeing with their own eyes they conclude the $100 and the trouble and additional time for the tech inspection is unnecessary. We see it, hear it, and read it on the forum almost daily.

What they don't see are the key bushings down to the wood, the pully balance rail holes, the crumbling butt threads, the 2/3 to 1/2 size hammers from multiple filings. These are conditions only a qualified technician can devine and report on. There is no escaping the fact that many of these pianos are comming out of heavy use institutional settings.

$3k U1s cannot have new strings, new hammers, new key bushings, new damper felts, etc. This stuff costs more than the $3k to be done right and with proper materials even in a third world sweatshop.

I challenge Pianobroker's "pro discriminating player/buyer" to compare the 80s gray U1 to a new prepped T118 for the same price. Performance, useful musical life expectancy, warranty, appearance, etc. (Are you really selling a piano every 10 minutes? I need to be nicer to you.)

Is there a place for a gray market U1 or U3? Absolutely! When it is brought to acceptable condition. When it is accurately and truthfully represented. When, in spite of logical presentations on the benifits of new vs used, the customer absolutely must have a U1 or U3 and only has a budget of under $4.5k. We are seeing them more and more, the bulk of them networking Asian buyers.

[Here are my beefs with the Gray Market sales:

1. Many are grossly misrepresented in age. One new post on the forum today re. this.

2. Many are grossly misrepresented in condition. As other have posted, most are dusted and polished but the mechanicals are original and worn.

3. Many come from heavy institutional use and bear wear way beyond their serial number calendar years.

4. A disproportionate number, compared to general used, do in fact have moisture related problems. This issue transends the "seasoned for destination" discussion and relates more to living their 20 to 30 year lives in a much more humid climate.]



Marty,

Thanks for your feedback. If the serial number is checked out and the piano is evaluated by an independent piano tech, I believe only Problem No. 4 remains a concern. Please let me know if this is correct.

As to problem No. 4, I understand there may be humidity differences between someplace like Kyoto and west Texas, but when we're comparing climates in Japan and New England do you really think it's different enough to be a significant risk?

Lastly, I'm just trying to get a better idea on what you term 'disproportionate'. Are you saying something like a problem rate of 5% in general used is more like 8% in grey market, or is it something more like 5% versus 30%.

A guess-timate on numbers by anyone with enough exposure (credible sample size) would be much appreciated. Again I'm in New England so I'm trying to come up with a risk assessment for a fresh off the boat grey market piano in this climate.

Joe,

I'm assuming that you're pulling at least one of my legs here, but anyway... The stern warnings of Yamaha and Kawai about their older pianos in general and later non US market pianos are that they were not built for the extremes of the US interior home climate So regardless of whether you're living in the middle of the Everglades or Miggil is bracing for this year's Nor-easters, it's really about home heat in the winter and AC in summer drying out your in-home air. If your 40% refers to a stable year-round in-home humidity level, I don't see any particular reason for concern on the moisture issue (although any of the pros here should feel free to correct me).

The other question is simply piano age. The life expectancy of pianos from Kawai and Yamaha of 70's, 80's, and 90's manufacture continues to expand as the old ones keep chugging along beyond the 30 to 40 year life expectation. At this point, you can begin to wonder if the reasons for rebuilding Steinway actions at 30 to 35 years are just about the possibility of making a financial killing on a rebuild, or maybe a little bit because they simply don't hold up as well as Yamahas and Kawai actions of similar age. Now I'll duck for cover.



Ditto Marty here. If you're really selling them this fast, what the hell are you doing here?

BTW, I just googled around for grey market U3 prices on 1980 to 1990 specimens. I checked a place in SoCal, one in San Jose, One in NYC, and one in Florida. I started to check craigslist, but as you would know, you're lucky to get a letter suffix there, let alone a serial number or actual age.

Anyway, Florida, NoCal, and SoCal came in at around $3750 for a early 80's U3M. Late 80's U3A came in just under 4k. NYC prices were $300 to $500 higher.

If this is about right, are you claiming here that the domestic U3M's of the early eighties will sell for at or near $7k, and that domestic U3A's of the late eighties will net over $7k. ( "the nongray market piano will be near double the $ in the marketplace" ) That's a lot of money for pianos between 20 and 30 years old. I haven't seen that kind of asking prices myself.

Fresh off the boat may not begin to exhibit symptoms of moisture issues for several weeks or months.

There are issues with East coast pianos transplanted in West coast or Southwest locals as well. Moisture issues are related to how long it was where and what are the HVAC types and customs at both ends of the journey.

My point is/was it is not the same risk associated with buying a used piano that has been across town for the past twenty-five years.

It is hard to quantify in that nearly all will have some type of moisture related issue. Some issues are very minor (rusted lockset or hinge pin) and a few rare ones are catastrophic. Complete finish failures or complete soundboard failures are very rare, but would be nearly never in a local piano of the same model, age, and condition. I have seen it all.

Wood changes dimension as it accepts moisture and gives it off. This is inescapable. Some goes quietly and some argues. Polyesther is somewhat brittle and doesn't tollerate the wood beneath moving much. Action centers and key bushings are fussy and can become be too loose or too tight.

While your tech is checking the mechanicals have them check for evidence of mold, rust, white rust. Have him check pannel glue joints as well as soundboard and rib joints.

Well taken but certainly no longer relating to "Chinese pianos" as a whole.

Let's not forget that many dealers in the past, especially dealers of new Japanese pianos, have chosen the "cheapest of the cheap" this, often to avoid conflict on their floor.

Many of these dealers also had little taste for prepping their pianos properly, some even selling straigth from company warehouse to customer home...

The better/best of the Chinese pianos today,including those manufactured by some of the lofty German makers, hardly fall into this category.

Exceptions aside, buying a 30 years old Japanese piano with questionable quality from unknown overseas location instead of paying a few dollars more for a new quality piano with full factory coverage just doesn't make sense to me.

Granted, to still may to others....

Norbert

Well, I'm not sure it makes a lot of sense to me either from a buying perspective, except for the exceptions..... but for some retailers, it's a 'once burned, twice shy' kind of thing. Easy money with the low-overhead greys too.

Hey, what happened to Broker's photo portfolio of grey-market stunners?

A little delay,Had to assess whether to rebuild this 35 yr. old Steinway action stack.

These are some pics of my Yamaha 1990 UX5 with the radial back,upgraded case design,large music rack,agraffes in the bass, true sostenuto etc. This piano was very similar to Yamaha USA's discontinued WX7 mdl. in the mid nineties. Even back than this piano retailed for $13,990.At present it would retail for $20K+ Technically if the dealer was not on the greedy side ,one could sell this piano(gray market UX5) for the same pricepoint as a new T118. Which one would a pro player spring for ?.

http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/UX-1&UX-5001.jpg
http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/UX-1&UX-5004.jpg
http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/UX-1&UX-5005.jpg
http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/UX-1&UX-5008.jpg

This is another one of my present artist level gray market preowned pianos which would be considerably less $ than a new T118. As you say ,it is a no brainer for the pro player
1989 Yamaha UX1. Far from that exinstitutional piano,don't you think ? Let's set the record straight and not fabricate some of these gross exaggerations. Us dealers gotta sell what we got nothing more nothing less.

http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/UX-1&UX-5011.jpg
http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/UX-1&UX-5013.jpg
http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/UX-1&UX-5018.jpg
http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/UX-1&UX-5019.jpg

As a matter a fact I would put this old beat down UX1 againest any new prepped T118 for pink slips. Winner take all. I would,of course donate that T118 to that needy individual on that alternate PW thread.

Turandot: Your internet search long and far for the relative FMV of the U3 ? both the asking and selling prices means nothing. What is relevant is the realistic obtainable wholesale price and the realistic selling price in the real world which you are not privy to. You're not a dealer so..you are not expected to know the extent of the % markup on these pianos. The letter /suffix G,H,M,A is a gray market designation and has no relevance as for the comparing them to a non gray market U3.

In the piano industry,FMV is derived from taking the replacement value less depreciation plus taking it's overall condition in consideration at deriving realistically at what a normal dealer might price said piano in a non distress situation (Is there such a thing nowadays). If at present the U3 retails for near 15K and is obtainable for 9-10 K new, I would think an authorized dealer would shoot for 6K+ for a 20 year old non gray market specimen, no problem.
Tdot; You want to cross examine the piano,counselor ?

Pianobroker, President Lincoln said..."a lawyers knowledge is his stock in trade"
I enjoy your post, you certainly know this business. I just don't understand why you give out all this free information. Don't get me wrong, you fight the good fight, I just don't know why you do it.

Yup! And if you got it, you may as well flaunt it (within the terms of the PW dealer credo) before it's ten-minute floor cycle expires as some lucky dude or dudette takes it off your hands for the sum total of [wholesale replacement cost] plus or minus [condition] plus [your markup] minus [your ample personal magnaminity quotient]. What with the exposure here, you'll probably have a surly Black-Fiday-at-Walmart-sized line outside your door when you open today.

Now you know very well that I'm not the enemy. I've said over and over again that it's a mixed bag. You also know I have a fondness for X series, so you're not playing fair. Heck, I'm a sucker for a nice U2 for goodness sake. And I don't want to cross-examine your UX-5 because I might get all gushy if I did. Let Marty tickle the ivories on that one and give it the Craigen whiff test.

My search far and wide took about ten minutes off my hands. All I can tell you is that whatever you paid has no relevance to me as a consumer. Whatever I might have to pay does have relevance. If I track down asking, I have a fair idea of potential selling price. I repeat that I have not encountered asking of $7k on 20 to 30-year-old U3's with their immigration papers in order. I think you are inflating the true price of the street-legal competition to make your point.

I mentioned the letter suffixes simply for identification of the manufacturing run, and as a clue to the actual age. On Craigslist, you have to scour for such clues since very little truth is given freely there. I don't have enough experience to make assumptions of the relative quality of U3A, U3H, U3M, etc. Again, as a consumer, I would focus on the individual sample in front of my fingers nose.

You undoubtedly see both sides of the question regarding grey K's and U's versus new Hailuns. What does the customer value more: the brand-spanking-new 12-yr. factory wanrranty Hailun, the pristine stunning X-factored U, or the 70's Kawai with the voice of an angel's chorus that you have hidden in the corner? Different strokes for different folks!

BTW

I should say in all seriousness that, like many others I'm sure, I truly appreciate the knowledge you deposit here in making your case (even if your legalese is peculiar).

Grey market U3's are selling at a 15-20% discount to non-grey market U3's in the Boston area. Non-greys go for about $4,500, greys go for about $3,700. The question is how do these two figures compare to the additional risk of a grey market purchase. In other words, are grey market pianos more or less than 15-20% likely to have problems?

That price differential sounds more like market reality.

The idea of weighing the price differential against the risk differential is interesting, but the boring truth is that it depends on the individual piano. Grey-market samples are very variable although a good professional seller will avoid the dogs. Non-grey samples can vary quite a bit too.

If all things truly were equal, including the condition, finish, verified age, your gut feeling about seller, your opinion of playing quality and sound quality, terms of warranty, results of a competent tech inspection, if all of that were truly equal, I personally would not pay a 20% premium for the street-legal U3.

However, it's virtually impossible for all those things to be truly equal.

Your best bet is to zero in on the one that appeals to you more regardless of price or immigration status, taking into account all the above factors. Get a tech to look that one over thoroughly. Mention all the concerns that Marty and Broker routinely talk about with older Yamahas. If that one happens to be the grey and you get a thumbs up from the tech that you hire, don't worry about it. I.N.S. won't deport it.

This makes a lot of sense. When we looked for the piano, the worst ones were trade ins and you really have to take each piano on a one by one basis. It is a used piano whether it came from Japan or across town. Either way, look it over really well because dogs are everywhere as well as some real gems.

Broker's photos of the UX1 tell the story of what a shopper will hear from the seller and see. They don't tell anything about wear or actual condition. There is no way to tell if it was an ex institutional use instrument from just looking at it. They can't speak about sustain and tonal response. He will never/can never have a new prepped T118 beside it for comparison. Broker's UX1 is twenty years old, 40-50% of its useful musical life has gone by. The second half is never as enjoyable, musically, than the first half.

IMHO, there is nothing in a twenty year old UX1 that makes any more "professional" than a new T118 in performance, serviceability, or warrantability.

Marty,Everybody has got their own opinion and priorities upon sampling and comparing different pianos in the marketplace whether new or preowned.
Of course from the pics alone, nobody can substantiate to a certainty the exact condition of said piano. For that peace of mind, that's what that credible tech assessment is for. But one can get a good idea from viewing a pic whether it be a piano of consideration.

Now personally I have played a T118 on numerous occasions at the previous Namm shows /first floor at the neighboring Mariott. I take it the representative T118(s) would be a good representation being prepped better than most.
Upon comparing the T118 to a U1,the new U1 to me was obviously the better sounding instrument which should be the case in the price difference of the two in the marketplace. Now the UX1 manufactured in Japan in the early to mid nineties, was also very similar if not exactly like the WX1 imported into the states via Yamaha USA. It was considerably more $ both retail and wholesale than the U1 (+ -30% more) so.... one might assume the instrument (UX1) was a better instrument than even a U1.


Now hypothetically,if this UX1 upon a credible technician's assessment turned out to be in superb near new condition,than one could possibly conclude that the UX1 could be the better buy. As I've stated before "Buyer beware". Do your due diligence and get that tech assessment in any piano of consideration. In Japan there are gray market mdls. that are more comparable to the T118 such as the U10BL.They are less expensive than the U1 but the trade off is they are newer than many U1(s)in Japan.

I think that the new T118 is a fine piano for the most part for most consumer applications. But there is also a market for the preowned higher level mdls. though again one must scrutinize them moreso. Now if the condition of that preowned piano whether it be gray market or not,is pristine, I would beg to differ as for the the useful life of the piano being diminished by 40-50% compared to that of a new one.

Everybody,dealer wise has to sell what they got. Hopefully your argument is better than the next guy especially of these controversial issues.

This is my experience as well despite the claimed parts similarities. In terms of actual playing capabilities, I'm not even sure that the current U1 with all its engineered improvements is as rewarding to play as a well-maintained U1 from the 90's. However, that's just one person's opinion. Many shoppers will find the combination of Yamaha branding on the T118 fallboard, good-enough playing performance, less percussive attack, and full new product warranty compelling. Every shopper has a different ranking of prioriities and a different tolerance of risk/reward.

On the useful life thing, one should not automatically transfer the expected lifespan of a Hanamatsu Yamaha to a T118 from China. If Marty is to state that a twenty-year-old UX1 from Hanamatsu is midway through its usable life, he is assuming forty years with the second half going downhill. No one really knows the useful life of a T118 or when it might begin to go downhill. Yamahas from China will need to develop their own track record.