That I wouldn't doubt, Norbert. It's not all about the price and definitely, surprises can be found in areas where one doesn't expect them. That reminded me of a little comparison that I could make between a Baldwin SD-10 and a Steinway D, both approx. 10 years of age. The Baldwin appealed much more to me and was only a fourth of the Steinway's asking price. That was a wonderful surprise! That rule thus not only applies to pianos but to life in general. Anyway, from my own personal experience playing instruments, in concerts, in showrooms, at friends' or wherever, I mostly tended to like the pianos best that were the more expensive brands, and that was really not based on the price or the name, but just on the sound and touch that appealed to me much more. When it comes down to having no piano at all or having a decent Chinese grand, there is no question what will be conducive to furthering one's talents better. I wouldn't doubt that. I also wouldn't doubt the tremendous and tremendously rapid improvements that the Chinese piano industry has undergone.

I have had a Brodmann 187 for 3 years now, and its proving to be a great piano.

The dealer I bought it from offered post sale prep, so a tech came up and spent a day regulating it etc, and it was tuned twice inclusive.

The piano is still running well and gets a heavy pounding. I have it serviced about once a year and tuned about 3 times a year.

The piano cost me £7500 (UK pounds) which was with a discount, so I went for it. With a 10 year guarantee and a well-established dealer to back it up I couldn't go wrong.

A Kawai RX-3 is more than double that price here. There is no doubt that the Kawai is beautiful and is exceptionally well made. They have ultra responsive actions which stand the test of time. I would like a Kawai but I can't afford one at the moment.

If both pianos are the same price, go for the Kawai. Really. However, if the price difference was the same there as it is here, I'd sleep on it.

So true.

If the "inferior" instrument is truly wonderful and in every way satisfactory or more, if it is either equal to or even marginally "worse" than the "better" one, at half the price, then it's hard to justify the extra money.

Truly the Kawaii is a fine instrument. But it is not in every way better than an equivalent Brodmann or Hailun. The differences in tone and touch are noticeable but not necessarily more desirable on any of these particular brands.

But if to you the "inferior" instrument is not truly wonderful or not in every way satisfactory, then it's not a good choice for you.

Hop

Tonally, the Brodmann may even be superior. For all its funny clicks and squeaks, it has the most beautiful tone I've heard amongst many pianos. The sound is not unlike S and S actually, although I appreciate it's all subjective.

Lots of opinions here. Everyone has them. But they're not all equal. Sorry they're just not.

Chances are 9 out of ten 8 year old children would choose a McDonalds cheeseburger over fois gras prepared by a master chef at a 4 star restaurant. Who cares? I don't. But if I'm asking for *advice* regarding things of the culinary persuasion I'm not going to ask an 8 year old.
A lot of people post their opinions on this forum but very few qualify them with evidence of background experience. And those who *do* quite often get accused of being condescending and pompous. If Joe Blow from Wisconsin bought a Brodmann because he thinks it's better than a Bosendorfer or Kawaii well.... Great. He saved himself a tonne of money and he's happy. But if Joe Blow comes on this site and expects to argue his case on an even playing field then "show me the money!". If Joe blow is an accomplished pianist then he has my ear. If Joe Blow is a hobbyist, or amateur then yes, he has a right to his opinion but I'm going to take it with a grain of salt because his opinion is about as useful as that of an 8 year old's on the topic of gourmet cuisine (compared to that of a professional pianist who has probably spent thousands of more hours exploring the instrument and what it's capable of)

All I'm really trying to say is that if someone came on this forum looking for advice and had this myriad of opposing opinions to sort through, it might make it a little difficult to choose a direction to go in. Where as if posters were willing to give a little more disclosure as to where the opinion is coming from it might help "input seekers" choose whose advice they want to follow.

I have always believed that these type questions are best answered by a shopper him/herslef - provided he/she can play and discern the tonalities or "quality" of the different pianos on the market.

While this is not always as difficult as is assumed, confusions on the market increasingly comes from the difficulty to explain still major price differences between otherwise very "comparable" pianos.

That lesser priced pianos can and sometimes *do* offer as much or even "more" than their higher priced counterparts, is a sign of the times.

It's for shoppers to sort things out - may we wish them well!

Norbert

An X versus Y thread is an invitation to one and all to give their take on two pianos. It is not a closed-door meeting of a piano review board. As such, the X versus Y thread may not seem all that useful, but to industry people who listen in here without saying much, it's an opportunity to sample public opinion of their wares.

Non-industry readers will undoubtedly value some opinions more than others either for the content itself or because of a kinship they feel with certain other members. Each person will draw his own conclusion, or even smarter, draw none.

Trotting out the old credentials argument (I have 'em, you don't) is silly, especially while expressing no opinion whatsoever of the topic.

BTW, no Joe Blow is registered here, although a JoBro did blow through here one day.

I like your point about industry people. I hadn't considered that. Thanks.
I wouldn't feel right to comment on comparison between those two pianos as I've only had a little experience with them. "Trotting out the old credentials argument" to me isn't silly. It's silly when its more *about* the credentials than the opinion. But credentials are what give an opinion weight. Sometimes the best credentials *are* "beginner hobbyist" as this may be the perspective someone needs for their own particular situation. But no credentials can leave an OP in the dark. I'm just saying that an opinion with context is more useful than one without. (eg. "I bought this piano because I wanted something affordable that I could enjoy playing as an amateur" or "I bought this piano because I wanted the best piano money can buy" or "I bought this piano because I wanted something that has what I perceive to be a limitless pallette for musical expression" etc. ) To me that's a lot more useful than "I bought x because it's better than y"

We like all dealers, have pianos at different price points.

From our perspective, it is not incumbant upon the lesser expensive piano to *prove* its lower price, but for the more expensive one to justify its higher one.

Questions like: " why should I pay x number of dollars more for this brand than for that one " are as real for us as for others.

In reverse one might ask " what am I *not* getting when only paying this?" have become regular part for most shoppers today.

When at a loss - and we sometimes are also - it's up to shoppers to make the final choice.

Interestingly enough one often notices a certain divisional line, but here I better stop.....

Norbert

I completely agree with this. I don't think it's pompous to say that one has an informed opinion based on a myriad hours spent at the piano as a musician. It's rather pompous to disregard such advise.

Chris: I would be interested in a link to this story if there is one. Do you know if Steinway will be using this equipment in their Hamburg factory or just NY?


Lately it seems Steinway has been making a few interesting deals: Forbes Selling stock to Samick to pay off debt and provide general operating expenses.
Also, PW thread closing their restoration center.
And reportedly furloughing their factory workers with scheduled factory closure days.

I expect Steinway will gear up again once the economy begins to pick up, and they will continue to make a fine piano. That said, I am not convinced that the purchase pianomaking equipment from the defunct Kemble during this time is motivated by the pursuit of quality. they didn't make these moves before the Global Financial Crisis.

Their new movie, Note By Note..., certainly espouses a very different philosophy regarding craftsmanship.

For sure context is helpful, but different people will still weight its value differently. Some people kiss the feet of certain retailers here. Others regard them as nothing more than salesmen. Either way or anything between, there's no doubt they have credentials.

Adrean,

You could have made you point without the analogy to cheeseburgers and 8 year old children. Maybe it's coincidence, but your dismissive Joe Blow post came immediately after an infrequent poster named Joe80 left a bouquet to Brodmann. In a post shortly before, he had mentioned he had owned a Brodmann 187 for three years. I think ownership is worth something, so I hope it was coincidence.

It was a coincidence. I could have said Jane Doe or Paris Hilton:)

AJF and turandot (in that order :))

It wouldn't be right to blow Joe80's cover on the forum without his OK, but if he is who I think he is, I saw him recently on tv giving a very accomplished rendition of Grieg's Holberg Suite. Bearing in mind the piano must have been early 1900's, he made it sing. If he wants to, he can give us the link so we can all appreciate his talent.

Katrina:

re your request for a link, sorry there's no link - the info came to light during a phone call with Yamaha UK. I'll see what further details I can find, although polyestering machinery was one item.

Yes Chris that was me. The piano I played was a 1910 Bluthner, very nice instrument although the action is pretty worn out and it really doesn't compare to any new Yamaha, Kawai or Brodmann for that matter.

I don't claim to know everything about pianos but I feel I gave a balanced view. Kawai seems to be better built, virtually bomb proof infact.

Brodmann pianos have a beautiful tone. Perhaps not as well built but equal in sound.

I have an excellent tech who is a piano snob (if it's not Hamburg Steinway or Yamaha C or S series, it's not worth it) and he said that actually the Brodmann is a decent piano, great value for money and has an impressive tone.

He said the Kawai RX is an impressive instrument built to an exceptionally high standard, yet doesn't necessarily sound better and is a little on the pricey side.

If the two pianos being compared were being sold for the same price, and that is what the original poster had said, then I would buy the Kawai, if these were the only two options available.

Wow, it just seems natural that we take a post and always stray away from the original question. I'm just sayin.

Agree completely and think this is not often mentioned enough at PW. If a relative beginner pianist can afford a 50K+ piano I have nothing at all against them purchasing it and it will probably give them greater pleasure than a less expensive piano. I am happy for them. But I also think that part of that piano's capabilities are wasted on a less than advanced pianist.

Although there is much debate about a pianist's ability to change the tone quality on a single note played at a specific volume, I don't think there is much debate about a pianist's ability, depending on their skill, to change the tonal quality when a succession of notes, i.e. music, are played.

Even when playing a simple piece, the tonal quality produced by an advanced pianist will usually be more far more beautiful than the tonal quality produced by a less advanced pianist when playing the same piano.

I think a pianist's correctness of judgement about a piano's tone is usually proportional to their ability to produce a beautiful tone when playing.

Interesting convergence of opinion on the meaning of 'pompous"

The questions that need to be asked are.........

1. Is it pompous to express an opinion of two pianos on a thread that solicits opinions even if a member is a less advanced player

or

Is it pompous to compare opinions of those presumed to be less advanced to the opinions of 8-yr-olds regarding cheeseburgers?

2. Is it pompous to trust one's own opinion over the opinions of those who claim thousands of hours or piano practice?

or

Is it pompous to say that members who in fact do that are pompous?

3. Is it pompous to buy for oneself a piano well beyond one's current ability with lots of headroom to grow in the area of tonal manipulation?

or

Is it pompous to say that such a piano in the hands of such a user is wasted?

I know where my votes would go, but in the spirit of "Let's All Be Friends". I will abstain from mentioning them.

It is interesting that these [lower priced X] versus [higher-priced Y] threads that challenge the Get-What-You-Pay-For premise are popping up with increasing frequency usually causing some pots to boil over.





Agreed, but what's the point? You ordinarily don't choose a piano for others more gifted than yourself to entertain you. You choose it for yourself and pay for it yourself. It's your money, your free choice, and your world. You may never drive it to its full potential, but it will enourage you toward that end.

There are varying types of experience.

If one plays thousands of hours on the same piano, regardless of its quality, their jusdgement is less valuable than one who plays the same number of hours on a variety of instruments.

Also, one who has played many pianos of the same brand, is in a better position to evaluate specific pianos of that brand. For example, I have heard hundreds of U1s/U3s/C3s and now can tell when an exceptional one come along.

In the real world the discussion about different brands or pianos is not as theoretical as described here but is for the most part ruled by *price* or *budget*

To compare pianos several thousands let alone tens of thousands of dollars apart,just doesn't make any sense any longer.

Most people express from the beginning to have a certain *budget* in mind and are seeking to get the very best piano for their dollar.

I've never seen this more the case than in the current market.

The moment a shopper's budget appears flexible, entirely different instruments could be introduced for comparison again.

That is why I have come to believe comparing certain brands and models in different price ranges is starting to make less and less sense.

The pyramid is clearly being built from the bottum up and at every price range there seem to be a number of interesting and highly competitive pianos to be had in today's market.

How these pianos effectively compare to each other is even for experts increasingly hard to tell but one thing is clear, the borders are becoming far less divisive than were the past.

"You get what you pay for" will be perhaps one day be replaced by "you pay for what you're getting"

Hopefully an instrument that gives you joy.

Norbert

Not only is the type of experience important, but how open people are to change is a key to the understanding the value of advice. In my industry (IT) I see many professionals who get to my age(mid-50s) with a strong set of prejudices developed during the formative years of their careers. It can be very difficult to accept that what you know might no longer be valid, and it can impair peoples ability to be objective, or even make them so dismissive they won't even bother to do the research. When there is a lot of change, like there is today in the piano industry or when Japanese instruments first appeared on the scene, some 'experts' do not gracefully accept new realities. You don't have to look hard to find examples of that here.

That being said, the combination of experience and open-mindedness which we often get on this forum, is invaluable. Hopefully, most of us are pretty good at only entering into discussions when we have something of value to share.

Doug:



Very classy - very true!

Norbert

+1

Tdot,

I feel that my 8 year old/cheeseburger analogy was a little misconstrued. I was trying to illustrate complete opposite ends of the spectrum. If we were having a conversion about the future of the NHL, for instance, I would be the "8 year old". I don't follow hockey and have no "background of relatedness" from which to draw any sort of meaningful opinion. IMO it *would* be pompous for me to expect that my opinion be taken at all seriously by someone who actually does follow and appreciate hockey simply because it's MY opinion.
As has been the case several times in the past, I think you've perceived my post from an angle of being offensive or insulting when none of that was intended. If I've offended you, I'm sorry. It's a good reminder that there's always room for improvement when it comes to being a good communicator.

Adrean,

I don't think your Joe Blow-cheeseburger-8-yr-old post was misconstrued. I think it was misconstructed. But whichever it was, your comments here are very gracious.

When I read that post, I thought it was a bit offensive, but I was not offended. There is a difference. I did get a sense that you were pretty lathered up though.

My concern was and is that casual players who have some experience with a piano not be intimidated or silenced by aggression from players who feel (rightly or wrongly) that they have a superior basis of judgment. This is especially true when the convergent opinions of you and those who supported you reference little if any experience with the Brodmann piano.

I know from personal communications that some of the most modest unassuming infrequently-posting members here who never cite credentials are both very gifted players and very tolerant evaluators of pianos. Because of that, their posts jump off the page to me in bold 20 point caps. Conversely, there are members here whose posts shrink to 6 point italics even before I read them.

We all make our own judgments about the credibility of other members. It's probably good that we make them as silently as possible. A public forum is a public bus. The fare is the same for all. No seats are reserved. If someone clamors for a certain element to be seated in the back, those who are told that can tell the ones who would relegate them to the back to get off and ride their own wheels.

Let's get out of here and let the Kawai and Brodmann owners, players, and enthusiasts have their say.

Ok.
Cheers.

A good analogy. And even if you had seen a few hockey games or read a few newspaper articles on hockey it would still make sense but to a slightly lesser extent.

Funny YOU should say that. Is the opposite then true as well?

Hey, Turandot is one hell of a player, ever listened to his links below signature?

Norbert

Actually, I just heard them, and yes he has some nice stuff.

...I actually never clicked on the link previously because I thought it might've been some commentary on war. Maybe he should be less shy and...?