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Topic Options
#1317586 - 12/03/09 01:41 PM better digital
Daniel J Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/14/08
Posts: 36
Loc: Vermont
Here's my situation...I'm an adult beginner with an older Yamaha Clavinova which is not a bad instrument. Bach sounds O.K. (I enjoy the harpsichord) but I'm playing more romantic material now. Schumann, Chopin, etc. On the Acustic grand at the school where I study this music sounds wonderful...on the Yamaha, not so good. My teacher has been pushing me to get an acustic and in fact I've played a fair number of instruments in my price range (very low). The Clavinova has been better then them all so far. Are there Digital pianos that have a richer bass and a less shrill treble? More Ummph? I'm thinking that a better Digital might be the answer to my piano up-grade problem.
Thanks

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#1317594 - 12/03/09 01:49 PM Re: better digital [Re: Daniel J]
Nikalette Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/22/08
Posts: 1081
Loc: California
How much can you spend?

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#1317607 - 12/03/09 02:04 PM Re: better digital [Re: Nikalette]
Gyro Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 4533
Do you realize that what you just
posted makes no sense? Your
teacher--who like many teachers
has likely never played a digital and
knows nothing about them and yet
dislikes them--pushes you to get
an acoustic piano. You try
acoustic pianos in your price
range, and they are worse than
your current digital, so right
there this should show you that
your teacher doesn't know what
he's talking about: he's trying
to make you buy something worse
than what you're playing on now.
Furthermore, now you're looking
at getting a new digital, when
you're supposed to be getting an
acoustic piano by your teacher's
direction. Do you not see
that this doesn't make sense?
Stick with your current digital.
This is an emulation of a grand
piano and is more than adequate
for playing anything on.

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#1317622 - 12/03/09 02:18 PM Re: better digital [Re: Gyro]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 12206
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
At a certain point, a grand piano will be the best thing for you. You don't mention your budget, but I'm not sure an upgrade would really be worthwhile unless you can get an acoustic grand. What I mean is, yes, you can always get a better digital or acoustic upright, but in the long run, there's no substitute for a good acoustic grand.

Having said that (which didn't really answer your question, sorry), you may want to check out Rolands. I think they are comparable to Yamahas, but they have a warmer tone. Some models (HP-207 I believe, possibly the HP_203 as well) have an escapement feature which I find to be bothersome, so I went with the FP-7. I like this much better compared to my parents Clav. Mine ran me about $1500.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#1317633 - 12/03/09 02:31 PM Re: better digital [Re: Morodiene]
FogVilleLad Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 4680
Loc: San Francisco
If you have a computer with sufficient RAM and CPU power, your best buy would be a software piano. You'd also need a good soundcard and MIDI cables or a USB-MIDI cable. $500 should cover all three.

If you want to consider this option, it'd be a good idea to check the RAM and CPU requirements on the developers' sites.


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#1317635 - 12/03/09 02:33 PM Re: better digital [Re: Daniel J]
ChrisA Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 3841
Loc: Redondo Beach, California
Originally Posted By: Daniel J
Are there Digital pianos that have a richer bass and a less shrill treble? More Ummph? I'm thinking that a better Digital might be the answer to my piano up-grade problem.
Thanks


If you like the "feel" of the keys on your Clavinova then you can just upgrade (more accurately "bypas") the sound.

Your keyboard has MIDI out jacks. These can drive a tone generator and this can drive some speakers. Today the very best digital sounds are done in computer software. Although you can buy tone generators from Yamaha and Roland. the sound then can be fed back the the Clavinova amp and speakers or to monitors.

A good collection of digital sound samples is here. But note that some samples are from older DPs, Listen to some of the software samples from Ivory or Pianoteq. But also some newer Roland and Yamaha sounds too.
http://www.purgatorycreek.com/

Maybe your piano is good but you just don't like the built-in amp and speakers? If the sound is good in the headphones then just upgrade the amp and speakers. Ok, now that I re-read your question, you say"
Quote:
Are there Digital pianos that have a richer bass and a less shrill treble? More Ummph?

Then maybe all you do need is a better/bigger amp and speakers. Ones that are better then what's built in to the Clavinova are likely going to set you back $500 or more. But for "More Ummph", the sky is the limit. I played a Roland keyboard through a Harke amp last weekend and literally had a volume level that you could feel in the chest and would move window glass and that was just with a small 100W amp and 12" speakers. They had equipment 20X more powerful. The shrill treble could be addressed with an equalizer or tone controls on the amp.

But on the other hand, you may just want to find piano samples that have a more mellow sound. Use some _quality_ headphones to decide is it's the piano samples or the amp/speaker that you don't like


Edited by ChrisA (12/03/09 03:19 PM)

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#1317707 - 12/03/09 04:04 PM Re: better digital [Re: Morodiene]
snazzyplayer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/26/09
Posts: 983
Loc: Earth
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
there's no substitute for a good acoustic grand.

you may want to check out Rolands. I think they are comparable to Yamahas, but they have a warmer tone.


Yes there is a substitute for a good grand piano...it's called the Avant Grand and it is made by Yamaha.

http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/Cont...amp;CTID=560001

As far as saying Roland pianos have a warmer tone than Yamaha digital pianos, I would hasten to say that this is too general an assumption, and one needs to know specific model comparisons.

It will depend, not just on the piano samples used, but also the amplification and speaker system.

I have played the Roland FP-7 many times, and the sound, while very nice, could hardly be called "warm". A little less than bright, maybe, but not "warm". Perhaps it is the speaker system, which only uses 13 W x 2 amplification, and 8 cm x 12cm x 2 Speakers.

Of course, sound is subjective and personal, and all the more reason to spend time playing the instruments recommended...this is s digital piano forum, so you will hear far more responses by people who are advocates of digital instruments than you will acoustic supporters.

Snazzy
_________________________
Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)

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#1317713 - 12/03/09 04:11 PM Re: better digital [Re: snazzyplayer]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 12206
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: snazzyplayer
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
there's no substitute for a good acoustic grand.

you may want to check out Rolands. I think they are comparable to Yamahas, but they have a warmer tone.


Yes there is a substitute for a good grand piano...it's called the Avant Grand and it is made by Yamaha.

http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/Cont...amp;CTID=560001

As far as saying Roland pianos have a warmer tone than Yamaha digital pianos, I would hasten to say that this is too general an assumption, and one needs to know specific model comparisons.

It will depend, not just on the piano samples used, but also the amplification and speaker system.

I have played the Roland FP-7 many times, and the sound, while very nice, could hardly be called "warm". A little less than bright, maybe, but not "warm". Perhaps it is the speaker system, which only uses 13 W x 2 amplification, and 8 cm x 12cm x 2 Speakers.

Of course, sound is subjective and personal, and all the more reason to spend time playing the instruments recommended...this is s digital piano forum, so you will hear far more responses by people who are advocates of digital instruments than you will acoustic supporters.

Snazzy

I haven't played that yet, snazzy, so don't mind if I remain skeptical. smile

And of course, this is all subjective. The OP doesn't like the sound of his Clav, so I recommend trying Roland HP or FP series. It's up to the OP to test them out and see which he likes best.

Although I didn't think about the software piano option, which may be the most affordable if the OP likes the feel of the Clav. That's probably the best route to go!
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#1317730 - 12/03/09 04:30 PM Re: better digital [Re: Morodiene]
snazzyplayer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/26/09
Posts: 983
Loc: Earth
Originally Posted By: Morodiene


It's up to the OP to test them out and see which he likes best.



Precisely, Morod, and to spend as much time as possible on any prospective instrument.

I have played the Avant Grand, and I think you'll be in for a very pleasant surprise.

By far the biggest advance in digital piano feedback to the player since the hammer action keyboard...I believe it will be copied by the other manufacturers in some way or form.

I'm looking forward to your review, since I glean from your posts that you are an acoustic (grand) aficionado, and you know what they say (whoever "they" are) wink

"The tougher the audience, the sweeter the applause." wink

Snazzy
_________________________
Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)

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#1317759 - 12/03/09 05:07 PM Re: better digital [Re: snazzyplayer]
bitWrangler Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1789
Loc: Central TX
Originally Posted By: snazzyplayer

I have played the Avant Grand, and I think you'll be in for a very pleasant surprise.


Well since it costs as much as an acoustic grand, I'd fully hope that it should compete well with them smile

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#1317764 - 12/03/09 05:13 PM Re: better digital [Re: bitWrangler]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 12206
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: bitWrangler
Originally Posted By: snazzyplayer

I have played the Avant Grand, and I think you'll be in for a very pleasant surprise.


Well since it costs as much as an acoustic grand, I'd fully hope that it should compete well with them smile

It claims to have the sound and feel of a $125k concert grand for $20k. Still, if I were going to spend $20k, I'd have a hard time going digital unless it really is as good as they claim.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#1317772 - 12/03/09 05:22 PM Re: better digital [Re: bitWrangler]
snazzyplayer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/26/09
Posts: 983
Loc: Earth
Originally Posted By: bitWrangler
Originally Posted By: snazzyplayer

I have played the Avant Grand, and I think you'll be in for a very pleasant surprise.


Well since it costs as much as an acoustic grand, I'd fully hope that it should compete well with them smile


Of course the first models will be expensive...the first decent digital pianos were as much as an upright piano, which they were originally designed to replace.

The savings in tunings/maintenance will be a nice incentive, plus it is far lighter and exceptionally easy to amplify/record.

Like the V-Piano, we will no doubt see the technology filter down to less expensive instruments....but, probably not until most of the R&D expense is paid off.

Have you tried the Avant Grand?

Snazzy


_________________________
Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)

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#1317775 - 12/03/09 05:24 PM Re: better digital [Re: bitWrangler]
Masume Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/28/09
Posts: 90
Loc: Germany
I'm surprised no one mentioned the Roland V-Piano yet. To my knowledge it's much cheaper than the Avant Grand (I'm optimistically calculating 6000€ for the complete set with monitors and all here in Germany) and it feels much much better than the Yamah CLP-380 or the Roland HP-207 (or the LX-10 for that matter). You can really articulate much better on the V-piano, especially playing softly. I haven't compared it to the Avant Grand yet, I'll have that honor next week, but compared to all other Instruments I know of (mainly Yamaha CLP-380, Roland LX-10 and Kawai CA111) it's a different world entirely, really really fun to play.

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#1317797 - 12/03/09 05:45 PM Re: better digital [Re: Masume]
bitWrangler Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1789
Loc: Central TX
Nope, haven't seen one yet, though I guess it's worth trotting down to the local Yammie dealer to see if they have one (they keep threatening to get a Grotrian grand in and it's been a few months since I've stopped by to see if it ever materialized).

The V is indeed quite cool (at least it seemed that way in the few minutes I've had to spend time with one). When they come out with an integrated unit (i.e. amp and speakers) then it would make for a very very compelling choice, if they keep the price reasonable (i.e. not AvantGrand levels).

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#1317808 - 12/03/09 05:51 PM Re: better digital [Re: Masume]
snazzyplayer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/26/09
Posts: 983
Loc: Earth
I tried the V-Piano and the Avant Grand...the V-Piano has an exceptionally good sound, and is editable to suit whatever kind of piano you want to design for yourself.

It's biggest attraction is it's tweakabilty.

You need the specially designed and quite expensive 4 speaker system, to hear it in all it's splendor.

It feels the same as any other high-end Roland digital that uses the same action.

The Avant Grand is far less complicated and much more aesthetically pleasing (my opinion) and intended for the player who loves playing acoustic grand piano.

You do not need a separate speaker system.

It feels nothing like any other digital piano...it feels like an acoustic.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if these two instruments were combined!

Snazzy
_________________________
Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)

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#1317890 - 12/03/09 08:44 PM Re: better digital [Re: snazzyplayer]
Alden Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/06
Posts: 211
Loc: Portland, Oregon, USA
If time permits this weekend I'm going to take the Mac out to the living room where the AvantGrand is and try using it as a controller/audio system with Vienna Imperial and Pianoteq Pro.

I'm really dreading when the AG has to go back... frown
_________________________
Alden Skinner
DP Technical Advisor, PianoBuyer Magazine
| VSL Imperial | Pianoteq Pro | Logic Pro |

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#1318023 - 12/04/09 02:07 AM Re: better digital [Re: Alden]
FogVilleLad Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 4680
Loc: San Francisco
Alden, if the Vienna Imperial is the Bosendorfer in Best Service's Galaxy II, that's become my daily player. Took a couple of weeks to get used to the Bosie's richer, more mellow tone but now, even tho the Steinway D is good, it's become too sterile to my ears. (Some of the richness may be just that the Vienna is such a large file, but the treble's more mellow timbre is much easier on the ears for long sessions.)

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#1318624 - 12/04/09 08:54 PM Re: better digital [Re: FogVilleLad]
Alden Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/06
Posts: 211
Loc: Portland, Oregon, USA
Hi FogVille, Actually this is VSL's Vienna Imperial, which is also a seriously large file with 69,633 individual samples. I've been playing with it for about a month now and have yet to find a weakness. It will be interesting to couple that sample package with the AG's action.
_________________________
Alden Skinner
DP Technical Advisor, PianoBuyer Magazine
| VSL Imperial | Pianoteq Pro | Logic Pro |

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#1319031 - 12/05/09 03:16 PM Re: better digital [Re: Alden]
Daniel J Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/14/08
Posts: 36
Loc: Vermont
Thanks all for much helpful input. I'm leaning toward waiting until I can get a quality grand. In the meantime I'll try every digital I can get my fingers on.

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#1319065 - 12/05/09 04:21 PM Re: better digital [Re: Daniel J]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 12206
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
If you have the room and can save up for one, this will be your best option, IMO for a primary instrument.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#1319073 - 12/05/09 04:32 PM Re: better digital [Re: Morodiene]
snazzyplayer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/26/09
Posts: 983
Loc: Earth
...and always remember that an acoustic grand requires tuning and maintenance, so add that into your cost.

Personally, with all these incredible digitals, especially with lookers like the Avant Grand, the acoustic is much too much fuss and bother.

Snazzy
_________________________
Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)

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#1319098 - 12/05/09 05:23 PM Re: better digital [Re: snazzyplayer]
starbug Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 243
Loc: Scotland, United Kingdom, Sol,...
That new Yamaha Avant Grand looks awesome!

I'm still to new to tell if it sounds awesome, but that'll be my next digital smile

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#1319138 - 12/05/09 06:26 PM Re: better digital [Re: starbug]
snazzyplayer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/26/09
Posts: 983
Loc: Earth
Originally Posted By: starbug
That new Yamaha Avant Grand looks awesome!

I'm still to new to tell if it sounds awesome, but that'll be my next digital smile


Take my word for it, my friend, it sounds even better than it looks.

It is one of the truly great digital pianos, and the only hesitation I have in giving it five out of five stars is that, ideally, I’d like to give it six. wink

I'm so excited laugh yippie...I've got my E-80 sold, and I'm going to get the Avant Grand in a week or so.

Whoever said money can't buy happiness simply didn't know where to go shopping. wink

Snazzy
_________________________
Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)

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#1319491 - 12/06/09 10:57 AM Re: better digital [Re: snazzyplayer]
starbug Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 243
Loc: Scotland, United Kingdom, Sol,...
Nice!- Enjoy it when it comes.

I can't justify one myself just yet. Perhaps when I've completed all three Alfred Books and learned to play better.

Remember to post some pics when it comes!!!!

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