Bravo!!!

I'm thrilled that you came back on here, and that you helped get the discussion to this better level. And, need I say, you're doing a great job.

There's an irony here, IMO. Putting things in admittedly simplified terms, some of your 'critics' are sort of saying that you were a bit dense in your questions and posts. The irony is that they themselves are being limited (and rigid) in their apparent view of what is or isn't reasonable material for a discussion forum, not to mention for human discourse in general. I see that some have come around, with your having clarified where you were coming from. I wish they could find it in themselves to be more open to such possibilities from the git-go, especially with new and young members; you shouldn't have to work so hard to show it to them.

I hadn't???

There's irony here, no doubt about it, but that's not it.

Steven

Oh do give it a rest!

Alrighty, I actually don't know any of the pieces that the OP has posted (me and my limited repertoire...sigh), but I'm going to take the plunge and try to bring this thread back on topic. So a few questions for the OP to get the more knowledgeable forum members thinking:

1) What techniques do you typically have the most trouble with? (e.g. playing cleanly and rapidly, pedaling, etc.)
2) Which composer do you find harder to understand interpretively?

And for those who have studied or performed these works, simply state which one you think is harder and why, without over-analyzing why the question was asked.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Great. Let's see what you can do better.

There -- done.

P.S. Before you criticize me too much, realize that something may have been accomplished here.

You can't make this stuff up.


Nor this.

Steven

Umm...I was just making a tentative suggestion, but I'm sorry if I offended you. It's rather amusing how the Beethoven vs. Chopin thread has turned into a PW against each other thread.

I completely didn't understand what he thought couldn't be 'made up," about my post or yours.

(I mean, maybe about mine a little bit but not yours.)

I expect to be put down for this post too.

Not really. It's that the piece requires some really big bursts of energy, over and over, and in that particular passage, it is difficult to start with a high level of energy in that broken chord figuration and maintain it all the way to the end, together with adding in the sforzandi. You just get tired. The figuration is somewhat awkward, for one thing.



For me, the mood seems to frequently shift throughout the piece, and it is very hard to create a through-line of musical sense, because the structure is not straightforward. The mood shifts don't seem particularly "logical" to me on the surface. I have rarely heard even professional performances that convince me all the way through from first note to last. More often, I get the sense that the pianist is sort of wandering around sniffing the emotional flowers and making pretty sounds until the coda, when suddenly things get all serious and dramatic for no particular reason at all. No compelling story has been told, and I think Chopin is one of the story-telling composers, at least in most of his works.

I wonder how a newcomer decides so quickly that he's got everything figured out and that it's necessary to apprise everyone of such through constant, condescending, divisive, self-congratulatory commentary. Will the continual dissection and analysis of threads' dynamics and the persistent criticism of others' opinions and posting styles ever end? Does the psychiatrist imagine himself a pastor, and this his pulpit for preaching?

In particular, I really can't understand why a mature mental health professional would want to have an overbearing, omniscient and omnipresent posting persona—or why anyone presumably trained to diagnose and treat narcissism and other pathologies would apparently have no self-awareness whatsoever.


Your "tentative suggestion" was worded as a directive; as an attempt to control the course of this thread, it seemed as patronizing as any other that's been made here.

Steven

I'm sorry if my post sounded like I was trying to patronizingly cut off your conversation, sotto voce, since that was not my intention. I guess in forums you can't really communicate your tone of voice and facial expressions, so it's easy for people to interpret things differently than the intended message. I was simply thinking about how the OP's question might be addressed by members of the forum who had knowledge about those pieces, and perhaps I didn't word my opinion in the most helpful manner.

Now that I think about it, reading a forum post is rather like looking at a score. All the notes are there but sometimes you have no idea what message the composer intended (as wr insightfully pointed out about some interpretations of the Chopin piece).

I'm afraid I do have to disagree with you on one point...the length of time that a poster has been around PW or his/her profession shouldn't be a basis of judging their posts. I myself prefer a forum with old and new members from many diverse backgrounds and experiences.

I didn't invent the word upstart (or the concept), and anyone who doesn't think that one's profession is fair game for commentary needn't include it in one's profile.

Steven

But much of the discussion was exactly about why it is basically impossible to do what you blithely just asked us to do, as if none of the previous part of the thread existed!!! At any rate, it's still close to the full moon, so this kind of outbreak of cantankerousness is to be expected.

In answer to your post -

Over the years, I have as an amateur somewhat haphazardly studied both pieces, although not with an expectation of performing them. Years ago, as a student, I did perform the first movement of the Waldstein, to give you an idea of where I am coming from. I am pretty familiar with them at the keyboard, anyhow. But I can't say which I think is more difficult, and that isn't some game I'm playing, but the truth. They are both very difficult, but in very different ways.

I really don't think it is possible to make that kind of "what's hardest" determination for a vast number of unique masterpieces that require virtuoso chops. They all pose unique problems for the player, so there's really not much basis I can think of on which to do that kind of comparison. And I also think it always really boils down to "what is the most difficult for me", and only the individual pianist can answer that (if they think it is important to do so).

Of course, if you are out to impress judges at a competition, that shifts the question into a different realm, but that's not what the OP asked.

I also think that grading systems tend to give people the idea that difficulty is some neatly categorized affair, but it isn't, especially when you get into advanced music. It's mostly opinions, and when applied to any individual, those opinions may not hold up very well.

Thanks for that. That's another aspect of some people's posts that I simply do not understand. The things that I've said on here don't depend on longevity.

I know you're not 'taking sides' in this and I'm glad for that, among other reasons because it's just ugly. But I very much appreciate your making it clear that people here don't necessarily share that view.

Very good points, wr. I suppose it's different for every pianist, but I find that there are some composers or pieces that I "get" more easily than others. In terms of comparing the composers in general, I find that Beethoven pieces come a lot easier to me than Chopin does.

It's hard to classify pieces to one difficulty or another, as we've also discussed on the Mozart sonatas thread. I think exam boards tend to expect more from the performance of a piece when it's put at a higher level, but that piece may not intrinsically be more difficult than ones on lower levels. I've gone through an examination board system myself and the pieces that I thought were the easiest to learn and master, I scored the lowest because I was expected to play them with more finesse than some of the "harder" ones. If examiners expected a kid's Fur Elise to be like Valentina Lisitsa's, it'd probably be placed on one of the higher levels of difficulty.

It sure is, even more so when it's something like comparing pieces of different composers like Beethoven and Chopin. I mean, I tried anyway but not much.

While on one hand I think it's a bit futile to do rankings of difficulty, I'm also fascinated by them. I remember being transfixed when I first saw the "gradings" of the difficulty of Beethoven's works in Schirmer's von Bulow edition (the gradings apparently done by somebody named Sigmund Lebert). It was even better than seeing rankings of center fielders.

Even after I came to feel that such rankings were a bit silly, I still kept coming back to them with curiosity. I must admit I would feel good when I saw that something I was playing was ranked high -- and a bit inadequate when it was the reverse.

Good God, I weep tears of blood every time I see that 'Ha-Ha' smiley.

What's the record for number of posts in one month?

The F Minor Ballade


No, the G minor Ballade is the hardest.



It's harder than both the Ballade, and the 3rd mvmt of the Waldstein.

IMO, the 4th Scherzo is the hardest of the three, but that's just me

I agree, I mistyped before. I'll go back and fix that.

Any time!

I suppose only one who has played all four in concert could really answer that. My 'big' piece was the Bb minor, but I never seriously worked on the others, though I certainly have read through all of them.

Good grief, that Bb minor was a nightmare, and I found it a major challenge. And whatever your opinion about Argerich, her Bb minor has an insolent -and disgusting- ease to it which ultimately I found very discouraging. Even if you don't care for the interpretation, you have to admire her technical address. It is utterly amazing.

In the central sections, Argerich properly brings out those delicious 'inner voices', though admittedly without the cold poise of Michelangeli. IMO, Argerich owns this piece. Everyone else is boring.

.....and even then they could answer it only for themselves. For me the Beethoven would be the 'hardest' of any of these pieces, but I imagine that for most pianists it would come in behind both the 4th ballade and 4th scherzo.

P.S. I can't stop being amused by that phrase, ".....the 4th scherzo is the hardest of the three."

The phrase looks like it can't be OK, but if we know what it's about, it is.

I play Waldstein and 4th Ballade to performance standard (I guess). I also play the other ballades and all the other sonatas (including Chopin's) and all the scherzo's as well. All offer different challenges. None are "not hard" (with the exception of Beethoven's sonatines and no 25).

I have neither mastered (as an absolute) the Waldstein (20 years of performance rehearsal) nor 4th Ballade (10 years), if that puts things "in perspective".

Maybe those 10 years and 20 years don't really count because you're playing so many pieces in your repertoire. those 20 years i bet only count like a couple weeks or maybe, just maybe, a month if you didn't play anything else.

You have played every single Beethoven Sonata?