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#1321098 - 12/08/09 01:46 PM Music Minus One
TempoPrimo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/06/09
Posts: 88
Hi all,
Is the 'Music Minus One' series of books any good? Is the score easy to read, etc? Noticed these were on the expensive side, and wanted to check they were worth the price tag before buying.

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#1321107 - 12/08/09 02:00 PM Re: Music Minus One [Re: TempoPrimo]
RSP1 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/16/09
Posts: 39
Loc: In a Cornfield, Illinois, USA
The scores are fine. The problem that I have discovered is that some of the orchestras used are substandard with major intonation problems.

Before you buy, check with your local library to see if they have any or can get them through interlibrary loan. I know that the Indianpolis Public Library has a number of them.

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#1321171 - 12/08/09 03:21 PM Re: Music Minus One [Re: RSP1]
gooddog Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/08/08
Posts: 4745
Loc: Seattle area, WA
I've got several piano concertos from MMO and I have found it to be a very useful tool for preparing a concerto for performance.

The scores are fine but not as good as some you can buy on your own. You may run into a problem with the alphabetical measure markers used for rehearsal. MMO letters did not always match the orchestral score measure markers so I had to sit down with the orchestral score and write them into mine.

The cost of a set buys you two CD's plus the score. One CD has the complete concerto (piano and orchestra) plus another rendition of the concerto with orchestra only. The second CD has the complete concerto (piano and orchestra) plus another rendition with orchestra only - but at a slower tempo.

I found working with the MMO CD's extremely useful. When you actually play with an orchestra, they follow you, but with the recordings, you really have to keep strict tempo to match the orchestra. This was a good learning experience for me. It also made very familiar with what the orchestra was doing. During one rehearsal, I lost my place. I was able to find it very quickly because I had listened to the orchestra so much, I knew exactly where they were. This was also very helpful during the performance because the dynamics and melody shifted back and forth between piano and orchestra and I had become very familiar with that dialogue.

If you are using MMO to imitate an actual concerto experience, you might find it disappointing because the orchestra does not respond to you. However, as a study tool, it is terrific.

One other suggestion. If you are preparing a concerto for performance, be prepared to have the tempo altered by the excitement of the performance. When I played the Bach D minor, we had rehearsed about about 80 BPM. I kept asking for a faster tempo but the youth orchestra conductor refused. Fortunately, I had practiced with a Perahia recording that was pretty fast, because at the performance, the conductor got excited started at about 100 BPS. I was able to keep up.
_________________________
Best regards,

Deborah

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#1321190 - 12/08/09 03:48 PM Re: Music Minus One [Re: gooddog]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17794
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: gooddog
[...] If you are preparing a concerto for performance, be prepared to have the tempo altered by the excitement of the performance. When I played the Bach D minor, we had rehearsed about about 80 BPM. I kept asking for a faster tempo but the youth orchestra conductor refused. Fortunately, I had practiced with a Perahia recording that was pretty fast, because at the performance, the conductor got excited started at about 100 BPS. I was able to keep up.


You are an even more formidable musician and technician than I had realized; to be able to go from 80 BMP to 100 BPS. Wow!

[Just teasing, of course!]

Cheers!
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

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#1321193 - 12/08/09 03:54 PM Re: Music Minus One [Re: BruceD]
gooddog Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/08/08
Posts: 4745
Loc: Seattle area, WA
Oops! Ha ha. My hands were truly a blur. (In science I'm always dealing with seconds. I made the mistake out of habit!)
_________________________
Best regards,

Deborah

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#1321232 - 12/08/09 04:58 PM Re: Music Minus One [Re: gooddog]
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10345
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
When my son was preparing to play his little Haydn concerto with a local orchestra we tried using MM1, but our experience was not as good. The rigidity of the orchestra's tempo is helpful in a small way, but not much more so than using a metronome. And it was problematic in the sense that it's not quite how things will go with a real orchestra and a real conductor. Also, as people have noted there were only two tempi provided for the orchestra. I would describe those two tempi as ... well, too fast and too slow! smile

The top speed was faster than the orchestra cared to go and the 'practice tempo' was quite a bit too slow for him. The disc got shelved pretty fast.

He was only twelve, so that was probably part of the problem. I suspect a more mature musician can make better use of it.
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#1321300 - 12/08/09 07:00 PM Re: Music Minus One [Re: Piano*Dad]
gooddog Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/08/08
Posts: 4745
Loc: Seattle area, WA
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
I suspect a more mature musician can make better use of it.
Hey, are you calling me old??? (Kidding).

I think the key thing to remember with MMO is that it is a tool. The best thing that comes from working with it is that it builds a familiarity with the orchestra, its entrances and its voicing. I agree that there are tempo problems. With the Bach I thought the slow recording was too fast and the fast recording too slow. I don't think it is possible to find a tempo that will satisfy everyone, but they were decent practice tempi.

Playing the piano is so solitary, the MMO recordings made me comfortable with being part of an ensemble. I found it really prepared me for the real thing and I was grateful for the confidence I gained from it.
_________________________
Best regards,

Deborah

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#1321356 - 12/08/09 08:34 PM Re: Music Minus One [Re: gooddog]
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10345
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Well, you did confuse BPM and BPS, didn't you! grin

You're right about entrances and exits. That helps, especially if you don't happen to have two pianos and two players at your disposal.
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#1321369 - 12/08/09 08:57 PM Re: Music Minus One [Re: TempoPrimo]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6049
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: TempoPrimo
Hi all,
Is the 'Music Minus One' series of books any good? Is the score easy to read, etc? Noticed these were on the expensive side, and wanted to check they were worth the price tag before buying.


I purchased the Grieg Concerto. The score was nice enough and laid flat without to much coaxing. (staple bound instead of glue) I don't know if larger pieces are bound differently. My initial reason for buying it was the realization that I'll never play with an orchestra, however I found it hard to time myself to the recording. I'm sure pieces that have more shared time between the piano and orchestra are easier to negotiate. I picked the Grieg on the reputed ease of the piano part itself and didn't think to consider this. It seems nice for practice but it didn't fit my desires. I probably should have consulted this forum for a concerto that is relatively easy yet more of an embellishment to the orchestra.
_________________________
Prepositions are not words to end sentences with.

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#1321397 - 12/08/09 09:53 PM Re: Music Minus One [Re: Damon]
Philip Lu Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/25/09
Posts: 294
Loc: Hacienda Heights, CA
even funnier because BruceD misspelled it as BMP!
_________________________
"Nie Dam Sie!"

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#1321468 - 12/08/09 11:50 PM Re: Music Minus One [Re: Philip Lu]
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
Music Minus One has been around for a long time, and the merchandise has been continuously updated as the prevalent media for recorded music have evolved.

I thought it was interesting that the OP asks specifically about the scores, as I was unaware that anyone would be buying this product for any reason other than the recordings. It's nice that a score is included, but it's not necessarily going to be an edition that would be one's first choice as a study score.

It may be worth mentioning that the contents of different packages may vary. As far as I'm aware, not all sets include a slow-speed practice version.

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#1321625 - 12/09/09 08:44 AM Re: Music Minus One [Re: sotto voce]
TempoPrimo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/06/09
Posts: 88
Thank you all so much for your help and advice - always excellent on this forum.
Sounds like a (qualified) thumbs up for MMO. Will have a go at the Mozart 21 - not too original I know smile

(I know it is a bit odd to ask about the scores - I have a bit of a thing about bad quality scores. Playing the piano well is hard enough without the wretched score being too small to read, or refusing to lay flat on the music desk. Am fast turning into a Henle snob).

Thank you all again for your helpful advice.

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#1321639 - 12/09/09 09:22 AM Re: Music Minus One [Re: TempoPrimo]
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
I wasn't even aware that Music Minus One had any competitors, but Amazon.com just sent me an e-mail that Mozart's K. 466 is available for pre-release ordering in Hal Leonard's "Classical Play-Along" edition.

This is the descriptive blurb at the Hal Leonard webpage for this series:

Quote:
The Hal Leonard Classical Play-Along series will help you play great classical pieces. Listen to the full performance tracks to hear how the piece sounds with an orchestra, and then play along using the accompaniment tracks. The audio CD is playable on any CD player. For PC and Mac computer users, the CD is enhanced so you can adjust the recording to any tempo without changing pitch.

I bolded the last sentence because I expected it to be especially relevant, given the specific problem some people have described with the MMO products.

Unfortunately, the range of titles in the Hal Leonard line is very limited (at least at present). The product descriptions aren't nearly as thoughtful or comprehensive as at MMO, either. Perhaps this is a new venture for HL and, as such, is a work in progress.

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#1321644 - 12/09/09 09:29 AM Re: Music Minus One [Re: sotto voce]
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10345
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
WOW! That has always been my beef with MM1. The inability to adjust the speed without altering pitch. Unfortunately, they seem to have very few titles available at this point. I can't imagine that the demand is really high.

BTW, if it's for PC and Mac users, that about covers the ground, doesn't it?
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#1321650 - 12/09/09 09:45 AM Re: Music Minus One [Re: sotto voce]
gooddog Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/08/08
Posts: 4745
Loc: Seattle area, WA
Thanks Steven, I'm going to check this out.
_________________________
Best regards,

Deborah

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#1321655 - 12/09/09 09:56 AM Re: Music Minus One [Re: Piano*Dad]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6049
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
WOW! That has always been my beef with MM1. The inability to adjust the speed without altering pitch. Unfortunately, they seem to have very few titles available at this point. I can't imagine that the demand is really high.

BTW, if it's for PC and Mac users, that about covers the ground, doesn't it?


I guess us Atari and Commodore users are screwed again. laugh

BTW, you can use Audacity to change the speed without changing the pitch. (for MM1)
_________________________
Prepositions are not words to end sentences with.

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#1321671 - 12/09/09 10:31 AM Re: Music Minus One [Re: Damon]
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10345
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Never used Audacity. Is it an easy process to mess with pitch or is it fairly complex (except to a technophile)?

... and I'd like to see you try using Audacity on your Commodore! That would indeed take ..... um, audacity.

As Danton said, "... de l'audace, encore de l'audace, et toujours de l'audace!"
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#1321673 - 12/09/09 10:37 AM Re: Music Minus One [Re: Piano*Dad]
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
Once you "rip" the track from the CD and then open the resulting audio file in Audacity, changing the tempo is straightforward (via Effect > Change Tempo from the menu bar).

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#1321677 - 12/09/09 10:42 AM Re: Music Minus One [Re: sotto voce]
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10345
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Interesting. Is this a program that works on a Mac, or will the Mac programs (Garage Band or iTunes) do this as well? Pardon my techno-ignorance.
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#1321682 - 12/09/09 10:48 AM Re: Music Minus One [Re: Piano*Dad]
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
According to Audacity's home page, there's a version for Mac (and other platforms, too).

When it comes to the functionality Mac-specific programs, though, it's my turn to be techno-ignorant. smile

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#1321683 - 12/09/09 10:51 AM Re: Music Minus One [Re: Piano*Dad]
Morodiene Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11344
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
I think most audio programs can do this. I just did this with a recording that I made using Audacity. You simply click on "Import Audio" from the Project menu, then select the .wav file. You may need to copy the file from the CD first, as I did not try this from a CD. However, I was able to change the tempo with it distorting the sound or pitch.

This still does not allow for variances of tempo which inevitably happens in the process of a piece. I think you'd have to do some more detailed tweaking of the tempo at various spots to accommodate those. Still, I doubt you'll get the response that you would from playing with an orchestra or another pianist playing the transposition.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#1321695 - 12/09/09 11:05 AM Re: Music Minus One [Re: Morodiene]
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
You may need to copy the file from the CD first, as I did not try this from a CD.

That's what "rip" means in my answer to this question.

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

Top
#1321703 - 12/09/09 11:23 AM Re: Music Minus One [Re: sotto voce]
Morodiene Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11344
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: sotto voce
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
You may need to copy the file from the CD first, as I did not try this from a CD.

That's what "rip" means in my answer to this question.

Steven

I know what "rip" means, thanks and I was not disagreeing with you. I was simply pointing out that in fact it can be done,as I just tried it and it was a simple matter.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#1321714 - 12/09/09 11:37 AM Re: Music Minus One [Re: Morodiene]
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
Oh, my mistake then. It appeared that you were unaware that the question had already been answered, and that you were speculating about the possibilities here.

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

Top
#1321729 - 12/09/09 11:59 AM Re: Music Minus One [Re: sotto voce]
Morodiene Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11344
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: sotto voce
Oh, my mistake then. It appeared that you were unaware that the question had already been answered, and that you were speculating about the possibilities here.

Steven

No worries, I can see where you though that. smile
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#1321838 - 12/09/09 02:07 PM Re: Music Minus One [Re: Piano*Dad]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6049
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
Never used Audacity. Is it an easy process to mess with pitch or is it fairly complex (except to a technophile)?

... and I'd like to see you try using Audacity on your Commodore! That would indeed take ..... um, audacity.

As Danton said, "... de l'audace, encore de l'audace, et toujours de l'audace!"


Sounds like something a Spaniard would say. shocked It is fairly easy to manipulate (drop down menu). Depending on how much you want the speed to change, the results start to noticeably degrade.
The Commodore hasn't been used for awhile, but I still use my Atari ST, believe it or not.
_________________________
Prepositions are not words to end sentences with.

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#1322021 - 12/09/09 05:54 PM Re: Music Minus One [Re: Damon]
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10345
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Hey, my son is now an aficionado of, ah, don't take this the wrong way ...... antique game systems. I think he has one of those old Atari systems that he bought on ebay just for kicks.
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#1322043 - 12/09/09 06:22 PM Re: Music Minus One [Re: Piano*Dad]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6049
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
Hey, my son is now an aficionado of, ah, don't take this the wrong way ...... antique game systems. I think he has one of those old Atari systems that he bought on ebay just for kicks.


That's okay, I'm an antique, but I was talking about an actual Atari computer, that compared favorably to a Mac of the same time frame. I still use it, though it is temporarily out of commission while I reorganize my house.
_________________________
Prepositions are not words to end sentences with.

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#1322221 - 12/09/09 09:57 PM Re: Music Minus One [Re: sotto voce]
John Citron Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 3925
Loc: Haverhill, Massachusetts
I have numerous MM-1 titles, which include a number of the Mozart concertos and the rest being chamber music. The chamber music is great because the quality of the recordings is much better than the reprocessed ones of the old concerto recordings.

I use my computer (laptop) for playback through a set of external speakers because the volume is a bit too low. The computer is great for playback with Windows Media player or some other playback software because the accompanist can grab the playing status bar and pull it back to another position. I've done this many times when working out problem sections.

My biggest complaint though is the volume of the recordings is sometimes too low compared to the piano. I have played the piano part on my digital piano with better results because I can adjust the volume much better.

Regarding playback speed. They offer a Karioke type box for seperate playback for quite a large sum of money. Audacity does the same thing for a lot less (free), and the playback on the computer has the added advantage mentioned above.

I have to admit that playing with real people is a lot more satisfying though because there is that nice synergy that develops within the group. Playing against a recording is actually more difficult because there is no feedback from the other performers and the performance becomes more of a keep up the tempo and playing along in time sort of like playing with a metronome set to full speed.

John
_________________________
Nothing.

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#1322510 - 12/10/09 09:49 AM Re: Music Minus One [Re: John Citron]
gooddog Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/08/08
Posts: 4745
Loc: Seattle area, WA
Originally Posted By: John Citron
I have to admit that playing with real people is a lot more satisfying though because there is that nice synergy that develops within the group. Playing against a recording is actually more difficult because there is no feedback from the other performers and the performance becomes more of a keep up the tempo and playing along in time sort of like playing with a metronome set to full speed.

John

I wholeheartedly agree. My first live ensemble experience was exhilarating because of the synergy and dialogue among the instruments. I did find practicing with the recording difficult for the reasons you mentioned but I viewed this as an opportunity to work on the evenness of my tempo. It made me more aware that I am playing as part of a group and therefore need to pay better attention to my speed. In all my other music, I always play alone so my inner metronome is more self directed and self centered. I suspect orchestral musicians are much more attuned to keeping strict time because they are more used to being part of an ensemble. Learning how to focus on other musicians and keeping a strict tempo was good for me. When I finally had the actual performance, I was better prepared to listen and be part of the group but I was also stunned and thrilled to find the musicians following me. What a high!
_________________________
Best regards,

Deborah

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