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#1320946 - 12/08/09 09:52 AM Re: Piano software post-recording editing [Re: Morodiene]
Morodiene Online   content
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Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11689
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
OK, so here's what I've been able to figure out so far. Below are two samples of the same music, one a recording directly from my FP-7 as a wav file via an Edirol UA-1ex usb interface, then converted to mp3. The second is as a midi file into Pianoteq and exported as mp3 file using their C3 Recording sound.

FP-7 recording: http://www.box.net/shared/a3by9ycnd2

Pianoteq C3: http://www.box.net/shared/xp9uy3sj5k

What do you think? I really like the Pianoteq version much better, of course. Any suggestions as to what else I could do to make it sound more realistic/acoustic?
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#1320956 - 12/08/09 10:03 AM Re: Piano software post-recording editing [Re: Morodiene]
R0B Offline
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Registered: 11/03/08
Posts: 1439
Loc: Australia
Both are good recordings, but I agree, the Pianoteq version is much better to my ears.

I would play around with all the various settings in PT, mic placement, and all the other settings, EQ, reverb, etc.

Damn! I just posted elsewhere, that while I love PT, it it not quite 'there' for me, but your recording is starting to change my mind again!!! :-)
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#1320963 - 12/08/09 10:11 AM Re: Piano software post-recording editing [Re: R0B]
Morodiene Online   content
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Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11689
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
I just have the trial version of PT. How do I change the mic settings? Or is that just the different "voice" selection?

edited to add: I think perhaps because I was playing Bach, which doesn't rely on a lot of low notes that it sounded pretty good. I was also going to play something Romantic to see how it held up.


Edited by Morodiene (12/08/09 10:12 AM)
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Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#1320966 - 12/08/09 10:15 AM Re: Piano software post-recording editing [Re: Morodiene]
R0B Offline
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Registered: 11/03/08
Posts: 1439
Loc: Australia
Just click on the microphone icon ( near the centre of the screen) It will open up a screen with a graphic of the piano, and choices for placing microphones. Just click and drag.
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#1320967 - 12/08/09 10:16 AM Re: Piano software post-recording editing [Re: R0B]
Morodiene Online   content
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Registered: 04/06/07
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Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Oh! Cool!! OK, now time to fiddle some more smile
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#1320993 - 12/08/09 11:06 AM Re: Piano software post-recording editing [Re: Morodiene]
setchman Offline
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Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 166
The Pianoteq version is noticeably better sounding to me, as well. I've only played with the demo myself so I can't offer any suggestions as to improving on what you've done but it sure sounds like you're on the right track.
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#1321014 - 12/08/09 11:37 AM Re: Piano software post-recording editing [Re: setchman]
Morodiene Online   content
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Registered: 04/06/07
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Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
So what piano brand does PT use for these? Steinways? Yamahas? I couldn't find it on their site anywhere.
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#1321032 - 12/08/09 11:58 AM Re: Piano software post-recording editing [Re: Morodiene]
Martin C. Doege Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/19/09
Posts: 448
Loc: Hamburg, Germany
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
So what piano brand does PT use for these? Steinways? Yamahas? I couldn't find it on their site anywhere.


I always thought the C3 and M3 were supposed to be Steinways, while the YC5 is meant to be a Yamaha. But I don't think the modeling is good enough that you can really distinguish the brand based on sound alone, it's more a mellow vs bright thing...
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Yamaha P-85; Pianoteq Pleyel

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#1321047 - 12/08/09 12:16 PM Re: Piano software post-recording editing [Re: Martin C. Doege]
Morodiene Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11689
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
So how exactly is modeling different than sampling?
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#1321062 - 12/08/09 12:32 PM Re: Piano software post-recording editing [Re: Morodiene]
Martin C. Doege Offline
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Registered: 06/19/09
Posts: 448
Loc: Hamburg, Germany
Sampling means recording a real, physical, acoustic piano.

Modeling instead simulates the whole physical system (hammers, strings, soundboard, case, air around the piano, microphones) to create the sound, which is very complicated to do in real-time, so the Pianoteq developers are supposedly using all kinds of mathematical tricks to make it feasible.

The advantage of modeling is that things like resonance between strings or a hammer striking a string that is still vibrating can be accurately taken into account, in a way that wouldn't even be possible with thousands of samples using the "normal", sample-based approach. The drawback is that modeled pianos still sound a little fake sometimes.


Edited by Martin C. Doege (12/08/09 12:33 PM)
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#1321064 - 12/08/09 12:35 PM Re: Piano software post-recording editing [Re: Morodiene]
ChrisA Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 3841
Loc: Redondo Beach, California
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
So how exactly is modeling different than sampling?


A "sample" is when they place a microphone inside a piano and play one note and record it. Then when you play the note that recording is played back with volume adjusted by your key velocity

A "model" is where they create the sound based on theory. Some physicist figured out how a string vibrates when struck and how the energy from the string is coupled to the soundboard and then the air. The sound is computed mathematically.

It is not clear which is best. In my opinion I think a hybrid is best. That is samples that are modified in real time by a model. This is what Roland does in the Pianos.

The samples have a firm bse in reality and sound "real" because they are recording of a real piano. But models can account for more then just one note at a time play. They can model much more complex interactions and resonances.

There is a range and it is not black or white. Yamaha seems to depend mostly on samples. Pianoteq on models but the other companies seem to be headed for a middle ground.


Edited by ChrisA (12/08/09 12:40 PM)

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#1321070 - 12/08/09 12:49 PM Re: Piano software post-recording editing [Re: ChrisA]
Morodiene Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11689
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Which software do you think reaches this middle ground the best then?
_________________________
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MTNA member
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Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#1321105 - 12/08/09 01:54 PM Re: Piano software post-recording editing [Re: Morodiene]
ChrisA Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 3841
Loc: Redondo Beach, California
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
Which software do you think reaches this middle ground the best then?


You will just have to go to this web site and listen. Go to the
"piano shoot-out" page and download a bunch of the MP3 to an iPod and spend a week listening. Not everyone here can agree which they like best. But after listening to each sample 10 or so times you will have your own opinion. But don't let yourself look at the names make sure your test is "blind". That is why I suggested the iPod.
http://purgatorycreek.com/

I like the souds in the newer Rolands like the RG700. But others don't. I like Apple's "Garage Band" samples of the Yamaha and Steinway too. I'm lucky because these samples are nearly free from Apple. But if you have better ears than I do, it could get expensive.


Edited by ChrisA (12/08/09 02:02 PM)

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#1321148 - 12/08/09 02:53 PM Re: Piano software post-recording editing [Re: Morodiene]
setchman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 166
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
Which software do you think reaches this middle ground the best then?


There are so may good libraries out there right now that I'd be afraid to suggest any single one over the other. If you're like many around here, you probably wouldn't be satisfied with just one anyway.

I find that, depending on my mood, or what kind of music I feel like playing at any given moment, I bounce around from one piano to the next depending on which one sounds the most "appropriate" for what I'm playing.

Just listen to as many as you can and eventually the ones that inspire you the most will eventually float to the top, so to speak.
_________________________
Kawai K-3
Yamha Motif XS8
BlackGrand.com

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#1321476 - 12/08/09 11:58 PM Re: Piano software post-recording editing [Re: Morodiene]
Glenn NK Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 457
Loc: Victoria BC
Sorry, I saw your post a few days ago, but part of my brain was sleeping.

An audio editor will do what you want.

I use: http://www.goldwave.com/

For a lifetime (literally) of free upgrades it costs $49 US. For a one year license it's $19 US.

I bought mine on-line seven or eight years ago - this year alone there were about five upgrades - no charge.

In addition to reverb, there are many more audio editing tools to modify the sound, plus it can splice together different wave files. I also use it to mix two tracks together; a piano track plus a vibraphone solo for example.

I would say that an audio editor is indispensable.

Glenn

PS - I use Pianoteq for my piano sound - beats my DP sound by a fair bit. Pianoteq also includes a reverb panel, but I have more success with Goldwave.


Edited by Glenn NK (12/09/09 12:00 AM)

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#1321561 - 12/09/09 02:28 AM Re: Piano software post-recording editing [Re: Morodiene]
edt Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/07/09
Posts: 210
Morodiene, remember in the computer age, there is NO LIMIT. Anything you can imagine, you can do.

So for instance, you can

1) play your digital piano in a room, where you position the microphones by hand, listen with your ear and try to find the sweet spot in the room that makes it sound perfect, then record it to your computer. Then after it's in your computer, add additional reverb to taste. My favorite reverb vst right now is called "Roomworks" but you can choose whatever you like.

2) record to MIDI, then play it back on a soft piano, which has built in reverb and other controls. If you use a soft piano, I think it's worth paying a bit of money to get a really nice sound, like for native instruments, post musical instruments "old lady" pianoteq or sythogy. I don't like any of the free vst pianos because they aren't multisampled enough times for me, they are ok in a mix, but not good enough on their own.

3) record to MIDI, then send the MIDI back into your piano so your own piano plays your tune and listen to it. This will let you hear your piece as it is being performed and try all kinds of different settings instead of having to stop and change the settings and restart playing.

Your imagination should be the limit here.


Edited by edt (12/09/09 02:29 AM)

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#1321651 - 12/09/09 09:45 AM Re: Piano software post-recording editing [Re: ChrisA]
Morodiene Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11689
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: ChrisA
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
Which software do you think reaches this middle ground the best then?


You will just have to go to this web site and listen. Go to the
"piano shoot-out" page and download a bunch of the MP3 to an iPod and spend a week listening. Not everyone here can agree which they like best. But after listening to each sample 10 or so times you will have your own opinion. But don't let yourself look at the names make sure your test is "blind". That is why I suggested the iPod.
http://purgatorycreek.com/

I like the souds in the newer Rolands like the RG700. But others don't. I like Apple's "Garage Band" samples of the Yamaha and Steinway too. I'm lucky because these samples are nearly free from Apple. But if you have better ears than I do, it could get expensive.

Chris, this is a great site! The one thing I wish they did is to make a chart of at least the software pianos to indicate the stats they detail on each one (which ones do sampling, which do modeling, etc.). Maybe I'll recommend that to them smile. I just picked the software that looked interesting, rather than listen to all of them. From what I've heard so far (not in the blind test) I'm partial to the Bosendorfer sound and not so much the Yamahas, which are too bright in the treble, IMO. But we'll see where the blind test leads me! laugh
_________________________
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Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#1321653 - 12/09/09 09:49 AM Re: Piano software post-recording editing [Re: Glenn NK]
Morodiene Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11689
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: Glenn NK
Sorry, I saw your post a few days ago, but part of my brain was sleeping.

An audio editor will do what you want.

I use: http://www.goldwave.com/

For a lifetime (literally) of free upgrades it costs $49 US. For a one year license it's $19 US.

I bought mine on-line seven or eight years ago - this year alone there were about five upgrades - no charge.

In addition to reverb, there are many more audio editing tools to modify the sound, plus it can splice together different wave files. I also use it to mix two tracks together; a piano track plus a vibraphone solo for example.

I would say that an audio editor is indispensable.

Glenn

PS - I use Pianoteq for my piano sound - beats my DP sound by a fair bit. Pianoteq also includes a reverb panel, but I have more success with Goldwave.


Interesting, Glenn. So in addition to the piano software's effects, I can add stuff from other programs, and you think those are better than the piano software effects? I'll have to look into this a bit once I've decided on which piano software to buy. Don't want to get overwhelmed! smile
_________________________
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#1321799 - 12/09/09 01:26 PM Re: Piano software post-recording editing [Re: Morodiene]
setchman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 166
I've used GoldWave for a long time and can vouch for the fact that it is a very good program. If you want to play around with a similar program that's free I would recommend Wavosaur. The one thing that Wavosaur can do, for now anyway, that GoldWave can't is take advantage of VST effects, which are all of those separate add-on effects that Glenn was referring to.

The built-in effects that come with the any of the virtual pianos are a very good starting point and are great especially for just playing the piano, when you're not necessarily wanting to record anything. Once you've advanced to the point that you're ready to record I believe that many effects plugins that are available, either for free or commercially, are far better than what's included with the virtual pianos.

The one recommendation I will make is that if you are going to invest in a program like GoldWave that you at least look into purchasing a full-blown DAW such as Reaper. Reaper is not the only DAW out there worth looking into but, IMHO, a true digital audio workstation will be better in the long run for anyone looking to do a lot of recording. If for no other reason than, with a program like GoldWave, it does not allow (at least not yet) for "real-time" processing of the add-on effects and, as mentioned earlier, does not yet support VST effects, although its website says it soon will.

All this means is that, with a DAW, you can create a track with your virtual piano, record your performance as a MIDI file, edit your MIDI performance, apply all of your effects in real-time, experimenting to your hearts content with all of the various plugin's settings and then export your performance to an MP3. A program like GoldWave will not even allow you to load a virtual instrument into it because that's not what the program is for. It's not an all-in-one solution for recording virtual instruments.

Sorry to add another layer of complexity to your decision but it's something to consider, especially before you start spending any money.
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#1321910 - 12/09/09 03:26 PM Re: Piano software post-recording editing [Re: setchman]
Glenn NK Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 457
Loc: Victoria BC
Morodiene and Setchman:

Some good points. There have been requests for VST in Goldwave for several years now. And I suspect that they are working on it.

The support from Goldwave is excellent, and the online forum is very helpful. The $49 is soon recovered when a program is supported.

I've also heard very good things about Reaper from some others on the Pianoteq forum, but as one poster said, it has a steep learning curve. Not something I would recommend to someone just starting out in this business.

Another option that I rarely see mentioned (I've been using it for seven years or so) is Power Tracks Pro Audio. it too is very reasonably priced, has excellent support, and a very good forum. I guess it would be called a sequencer (it also records). I use it extensively for editing midi files (unlike most pianists, I can never seem to lay down a perfect midi track).

http://www.pgmusic.com/powertracks.htm

It's a big scary world out there in the digital music field, but very interesting, useful and fun.

It will take some time to get a feel for it.

As for the effects on the DP, I think there is much more that can be done in a DAW.

Glenn


Edited by Glenn NK (12/09/09 03:28 PM)

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#1321931 - 12/09/09 03:54 PM Re: Piano software post-recording editing [Re: Glenn NK]
Morodiene Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11689
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
I did download Reaper and I've been futzing my way through it, though there's still a lot I am discovering at this point. Some of the features are similar to way back when I played around with Cakewalk, but there are tons of things I'll have to figure out. Good thing there are help files smile
_________________________
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MTNA member
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Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#1321942 - 12/09/09 04:10 PM Re: Piano software post-recording editing [Re: Morodiene]
Triryche Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 1451
Loc: Milwaukee, Wisconsin
+1 one the Reaper recommendation. Very powerful package for the money.

Reaper also has a very helpful community, so if you get stuck check out their forums.

Of course you could ask 'round here too as I am sure there are many seasoned Reaper users.

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#1321965 - 12/09/09 04:40 PM Re: Piano software post-recording editing [Re: Morodiene]
ChrisA Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 3841
Loc: Redondo Beach, California
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
I'm partial to the Bosendorfer sound and not so much the Yamahas, which are too bright in the treble, IMO. But we'll see where the blind test leads me! laugh


That's what I figured out right quick, that all of the samples are good enough that those sampled from a Yamaha sound like a Yamaha and same for Steinway and so on. The next level is to find out who does the best job of sampling and look at the prices.

At this point, price has me using Apple's samples.



Edited by ChrisA (12/09/09 06:22 PM)

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#1321982 - 12/09/09 04:56 PM Re: Piano software post-recording editing [Re: Triryche]
setchman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 166
Originally Posted By: Triryche
Very powerful package for the money. Reaper also has a very helpful community, so if you get stuck check out their forums.


This is precisely why I would never hesitate to recommend it. You'll never have trouble finding someone willing to help out. I agree that there are other programs that are probably more user-friendly "out-of-the-box" but, as with everything else, there are always compromises. The price for Reaper is a huge selling point.

I don't know if any of you ever worked with Tracktion much but I always thought it was the easiest, most logical and quickest way to get started with a DAW but I could never recommend it because Mackie seems to have completely forgotten about it. It hasn't been update in ages and probably never will be. It was a great program for those just getting into DAWs, though.

I don't consider myself an expert in Reaper by any means but when I have a few minutes I might create a few how-to videos and post them on my website. They'd be pretty basic and would cover simple things like how to set up a track with a virtual piano on it and load some simple effects. I realize it can be a bit intimidating when you first open the program but once you've seen it done, it's really not that bad.
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