Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner Beethoven vs. Chopin.

Well said.

This site in general seems to be characterized by an unusually decorous level of respect and regard for others. But this particular aspect, which arises a fair amount, seems like an exception. They feel they're reacting appropriately to naive or stupid posts; I think it's essentially elitism, or maybe just unthinking-ness.

Please at least consider that he's as right on this as your might be.
I think he's righter.

I did give my opinion on the question, and have no idea why you think only direct answers to questions are permissible. It ain't gonna happen. To me, it is fairly obvious that posting a question is an invitation to comments on the question itself as well as to getting answers, especially in cases where the question is problematic.

And no, I don't agree with your idea about what is arrogant. There is nothing arrogant about saying I think the question is not a good one and could have been better thought out. It's my opinion. The OP can take it or leave it. And there's also nothing arrogant about my hope that he understands why some of us responded as we did and takes it into account in the future.

I still don't understand what was even remotely wrong with his question?

This place becomes ever more ridiculous by the day.

Steven

There are all kinds of people and personalities here. I'm a grumpy old geezer who doesn't feel any special obligation to go out of my way for youth or newbies (even though I sometimes do, when I think it is merited). You may as well get used to it, or maybe it would be a better idea to hit my UserID with the "Ignore this user" feature that is offered on this site and spare yourself some pain.

I think Beethoven could have kicked Chopin's a....rear. Or in other words, what an awesome thread!

You still haven't said what was wrong with his question

That who is as right about what?

I said it in my original post in this thread, and others have said more or less the same thing.

The main thing is that he was asking for a comparison that just can't reasonably be made, and it can't reasonably be made for a couple of reasons. One is that the demands of the two pieces are not directly comparable in terms of difficulty - the styles of writing for the piano are very different, but both have significant hurdles. Can anybody really say whether the octave glissando passage in the Beethoven is more difficult than the fast double notes in the Chopin, for example? I sure can't.

The other reason is that nobody can answer the question for the OP anyway; only the person doing the playing can answer that, and hopefully, if they are capable of playing advanced music of this kind, they should be able to sort out which is the harder for them. Or perhaps decide it is a tossup. It is entirely possible that even if all of us here universally agreed that the Beethoven was harder, the OP might have a tougher time with the Chopin. I don't think any of us can say which is the harder for any given pianist, unless we are intimately familiar with their playing and technical development, such as a teacher would be.

I don't play this repertoire, or at this level. But from my experience with mathematics, or accounting, or skiing, or any number of other activities, I think "at this level you have the experience and judgement to figure this out, and what's more you have far more knowledge of your abilities than anyone on this forum" is a more than legitimate response. And one which I didn't think anyone here was rude about. The response that "the two pieces are so different, and piano players are so different, that one can't make a comparison that says one is harder than the other" also seems like a legitimate response to me, and I didn't find any rudeness in any of those responses. I didn't find it rude that posters pointed out that the question was/is essentially unanswerable.

But MarkC's insistence that so many here are so out of line, as he seems to think here and in a couple of other threads, seems - hm, what was that word I used? - smug, that was it - to me

But, as Mark says, he's not perfect We can agree on that.

Cathy

I don't remember saying it, but I certainly agree.

To me the issue is that people who take the attitude that I criticized are discouraging new and younger members from being here via put-down and intimidation, however unintended.

Guys stop arguing. This forum is here to bring together people to share their love of one of the most beautiful languages in the world-music, and especially piano. I believe that it would be interesting to see different people's views on the subject i brought up and from the said perspectives, get some understanding of how the majority of you believe these pieces should be performed. On the contrary to my expectations, we are talking about social aspects of the forums.

Whether I could answer the question myself or not is totally off topic, because I would not have posted the question if I could have received the answer I wanted by myself. I think we should agree on this point too.

I believe we should focus less on what we have been talking about, and more on what makes each piece difficult or what could make each piece more difficult than the other through a more detailed explanation as to why is this particular section of the piece for example the coda of the 4th Ballade, harder, than the coda of the 3rd movement of the waldstein. Or how the shaping is harder in ___, or more along these lines.

Thank you!

tsunami713 - those are far more specific issues than your first post implied :), just as the information about needing to have something ready by Feb 26 was more specific than your first post. So, I still don't see that the responses to your first post were off topic. And, it appears to me, that many of the answers are, still - it depends. On your abilities, on your experience. For one pianist perhaps one of those codas is harder, for another the other one. One might discuss how they are different for each of us, but - from what I read here, for this repertoire, "harder" isn't really a definable issue in any absolute way. So I guess I agree with wr - there are more accurate ways of asking what you want to know, since "which is harder" still doesn't, to me, appear to be a question with an answer.

JMO of course.

Cathy

I think you are trying to get some objective evaluation of which is the harder. But I personally don't think such a thing exists, and wonder why you do think it does, if that is what you are after. Is it because of what your teacher said? If so, maybe you could ask your teacher exactly what it is that makes the one more difficult than the other and let us know the response. Then we might have something more concrete to talk about.

On the other hand, it entirely possible to discuss the difficulties of each piece as a standalone piece. For example, simple stamina is an issue in the Beethoven, especially in the notorious passage of sixteenth note triplet broken chords that seems to go on forever. The mood changes in the Chopin are terribly difficult to grasp, and then to communicate, once grasped. Etc. Etc. Etc. I just have no idea how one would compare the two, though.

I don't agree with that at all.


In my opinion, anyone with the technical ability to learn and play those pieces wouldn't need to ask those questions of other people.

The purpose of this thread is even less clear now than it was at the outset. I assumed that the original question was naive but sincere; it now appears that you want others to do your thinking for you.

Steven

Fair enough then. And I believe that objective can be created when the subjective of everyone is combined if possible. But as you said, why don't we analyze each piece separately.

By stamina, you mean that your wrist will eventually give in?

By mood changes in chopin, I believe the hardest mood change is actually in the first and second pages (between the first intro of the theme and the second intro of the theme). A lot of people won't notice it, but Gb6 diminished chord in the left hand implicates a minor tone change already, since the melody is exactly the same but the left hand chord changes. I believe its supposed to give it a sinking feel. I would actually say that this whole piece has an icy feel to it. Of course, its talking about love or beauty, romance etc..but particular in an icy tone. Its like a dance on ice I suppose!

WHAT AN AWESOME THREAD!!!!!!!!

The purpose of this thread is even less clear now than it was at the outset. I assumed that the original question was naive but sincere; it now appears that you want others to do your thinking for you.

Steven [/quote]

This isn't a calculus question. You can't simply have other people think for you. And this should be a discussion not a flame thread. This topic isn't just simply answering a question. As all forum topics are, they are here to provide a good discussion of what different pianists all over the world believe. We are not experts on debate or literature. You're simply missing the point-simply to talk about piano.

tsunami713,

I stand corrected. Your last two posts have given me a much better sense of the purpose of this thread.

Steven