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#1320488 - 12/07/09 04:18 PM Re: Beethoven vs. Chopin. [Re: PartyPianist]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5834
Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: PartyPianist
Originally Posted By: currawong
Originally Posted By: PartyPianist
Those who commit to memory easily have "perfect pitch".
Any evidence for this statement?

My coach/teacher who is a Professor at the Wollongong Conservatorium, name Slobodan Zivkovic told me "the trouble with my pupils with perfect pitch is they learn the notes too easily. I have to be very careful with their preparation."

That doesn't logically translate to "those who commit to memory easily have perfect pitch". It may translate to "those who have perfect pitch are often good memorisers"...
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

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#1320501 - 12/07/09 04:33 PM Re: Beethoven vs. Chopin. [Re: Mark_C]
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
It's been suggested on previous occasions that people may post apparently sincere yet actually frivolous questions about advanced repertoire as an oblique way of boasting without appearing to do so and as a covert way of fishing for compliments.

"I began playing last year and I've just started learning Mazeppa. Do you think I'm making normal progress?"

"I'm learning Rach 3 but I don't know what fingering to use on the first page. Can somebody help me?"


Sometimes these inquiries are made in naïveté, and sometimes they're transparently calculated to impress. In any case, I've seen answers to such questions that were far more brusque and dismissive than anything in this thread.

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#1320502 - 12/07/09 04:33 PM Re: Beethoven vs. Chopin. [Re: currawong]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19292
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: currawong
.....That doesn't logically translate to "those who commit to memory easily have perfect pitch". It may translate to "those who have perfect pitch are often good memorisers"...

Yes -- and in fact it doesn't even approximately translate into that. smile

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#1320504 - 12/07/09 04:36 PM Re: Beethoven vs. Chopin. [Re: sotto voce]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19292
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: sotto voce
It's been suggested on previous occasions that people may post apparently frivolous questions about advanced repertoire as an oblique way of boasting without actually appearing to do so and a covert way of fishing for compliments....
Sometimes these inquiries are made in naïveté, and sometimes they're transparently calculated to impress....

Yes indeed.
If someone does that habitually, or even I suppose just more than once smile it's obnoxious.

Otherwise, and especially IMO if it's from a new member, that's different.

The reason I said anything about it on this thread was that it was about a new member, and a young one to boot. It would seem to me that we want to encourage such people to come here and be here, not slam them down.

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#1320591 - 12/07/09 06:57 PM Re: Beethoven vs. Chopin. [Re: Mark_C]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7426
Originally Posted By: MarkCannon
Originally Posted By: wr
.....I have no idea why you think my response should have been repressed. It wasn't gratuitous - I really do think that what I said is true, and I think there is no fault in letting the OP know that some people think that way.

WHY?

This was a new member. Would you rather he/she hadn't joined, or hadn't begun posting? That kind of reply is sort of like scaring the person away. Why would you want to do that, on a post which at worst is a little insipid but might be (and was) of some interest to some other people?

Sorry, but I think it's tantamount to saying "You stink" to a beginning student.....


This person seems perfectly capable of dealing with the responses he got; it is rather condescending to think he isn't. When I respond to a post, I don't especially pay attention to writer's age unless they make of point of it; this person didn't, that I noticed. But now that you have brought it up as an issue, I checked his profile and see he is a high school senior. And is into rap, metal, and hip hop. All of which lead me to think he doesn't particularly need to be treated with kid gloves.

My post, in the context of the whole thread, was simply reinforcing a message several others had already given. And I still think it is a perfectly legitimate response to the question. Feel free to disagree, but you aren't going to change my mind (nor my online persona).

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#1320616 - 12/07/09 07:59 PM Re: Beethoven vs. Chopin. [Re: wr]
xtraheat Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/20/07
Posts: 625
Loc: WV
wow you all need to stop being so elitist and arrogant. He asked a simple question... He could care less what your all's opinion is on the fact that he is asking this question. If you don't have an answer, don't post... Simple as that
_________________________
Currently working on
Prokofiev Piano Concerto 3
Beethoven Sonata Op.109
Chopin Op.10 No.1
Bach WTC II no. 15

--Sam--

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#1320644 - 12/07/09 08:45 PM Re: Beethoven vs. Chopin. [Re: xtraheat]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5834
Loc: Down Under
And calling people with a genuine opinion "elitist and arrogant" helps how?

wr only defended his opinion because it was criticised. Why don't we all accept that each other's opinions, as opinions, are valid. Novel, eh? smile
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

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#1320661 - 12/07/09 09:23 PM Re: Beethoven vs. Chopin. [Re: xtraheat]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7426
Originally Posted By: xtraheat
wow you all need to stop being so elitist and arrogant. He asked a simple question... He could care less what your all's opinion is on the fact that he is asking this question. If you don't have an answer, don't post... Simple as that


If you think that I and others are being elitist and arrogant, that would seem to be a problem on your part, since we aren't. And, speaking of arrogance - you aren't in a position to say whether he does or does not care about opinions about his question. I hope he does care, and as a result, tries to frame such questions with a little more thought in the future. And finally, when people say that a question should really be answered by the person asking it, or is otherwise unanswerable, it is an answer to the question. Whether you like that answer is a whole different issue.

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#1320663 - 12/07/09 09:26 PM Re: Beethoven vs. Chopin. [Re: wr]
xtraheat Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/20/07
Posts: 625
Loc: WV
No, the "correct" answer would to give your opinion on the issue that is in question, rather than tell him whether or not he should be able to ask it. It IS arrogant to say that he should care and "try to frame such questions with more thought", as this is a public forum, and not only was there nothing wrong with the question that he asked, but you are also telling him what he should and shouldn't be able to ask
_________________________
Currently working on
Prokofiev Piano Concerto 3
Beethoven Sonata Op.109
Chopin Op.10 No.1
Bach WTC II no. 15

--Sam--

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#1320665 - 12/07/09 09:28 PM Re: Beethoven vs. Chopin. [Re: wr]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19292
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: wr
....This person seems perfectly capable of dealing with the responses he got; it is rather condescending to think he isn't.....he doesn't particularly need to be treated with kid gloves....

As with the earlier thing of "why would someone ask questions like that," I think you're taking what I said too concretely.

It's not just about "him," it's about how it might affect others who are thinking of joining and posting, and it's about the basic atmosphere of the site toward newcomers, younger people, and those who maybe don't know as much as you do or don't have exactly the same kinds of social approaches.

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#1320668 - 12/07/09 09:31 PM Re: Beethoven vs. Chopin. [Re: xtraheat]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19292
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: xtraheat
wow you all need to stop being so elitist and arrogant. He asked a simple question... He could care less what your all's opinion is on the fact that he is asking this question. If you don't have an answer, don't post... Simple as that

Well said.

This site in general seems to be characterized by an unusually decorous level of respect and regard for others. But this particular aspect, which arises a fair amount, seems like an exception. They feel they're reacting appropriately to naive or stupid posts; I think it's essentially elitism, or maybe just unthinking-ness.

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#1320672 - 12/07/09 09:34 PM Re: Beethoven vs. Chopin. [Re: wr]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19292
Loc: New York
Please at least consider that he's as right on this as your might be.
I think he's righter.

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#1320697 - 12/07/09 10:05 PM Re: Beethoven vs. Chopin. [Re: xtraheat]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7426
Originally Posted By: xtraheat
No, the "correct" answer would to give your opinion on the issue that is in question, rather than tell him whether or not he should be able to ask it. It IS arrogant to say that he should care and "try to frame such questions with more thought", as this is a public forum, and not only was there nothing wrong with the question that he asked, but you are also telling him what he should and shouldn't be able to ask


I did give my opinion on the question, and have no idea why you think only direct answers to questions are permissible. It ain't gonna happen. To me, it is fairly obvious that posting a question is an invitation to comments on the question itself as well as to getting answers, especially in cases where the question is problematic.

And no, I don't agree with your idea about what is arrogant. There is nothing arrogant about saying I think the question is not a good one and could have been better thought out. It's my opinion. The OP can take it or leave it. And there's also nothing arrogant about my hope that he understands why some of us responded as we did and takes it into account in the future.

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#1320700 - 12/07/09 10:07 PM Re: Beethoven vs. Chopin. [Re: wr]
xtraheat Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/20/07
Posts: 625
Loc: WV
I still don't understand what was even remotely wrong with his question?
_________________________
Currently working on
Prokofiev Piano Concerto 3
Beethoven Sonata Op.109
Chopin Op.10 No.1
Bach WTC II no. 15

--Sam--

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#1320703 - 12/07/09 10:13 PM Re: Beethoven vs. Chopin. [Re: Mark_C]
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
This place becomes ever more ridiculous by the day.

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

Top
#1320705 - 12/07/09 10:15 PM Re: Beethoven vs. Chopin. [Re: Mark_C]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7426
Originally Posted By: MarkCannon
Originally Posted By: wr
....This person seems perfectly capable of dealing with the responses he got; it is rather condescending to think he isn't.....he doesn't particularly need to be treated with kid gloves....

As with the earlier thing of "why would someone ask questions like that," I think you're taking what I said too concretely.

It's not just about "him," it's about how it might affect others who are thinking of joining and posting, and it's about the basic atmosphere of the site toward newcomers, younger people, and those who maybe don't know as much as you do or don't have exactly the same kinds of social approaches.


There are all kinds of people and personalities here. I'm a grumpy old geezer who doesn't feel any special obligation to go out of my way for youth or newbies (even though I sometimes do, when I think it is merited). You may as well get used to it, or maybe it would be a better idea to hit my UserID with the "Ignore this user" feature that is offered on this site and spare yourself some pain.

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#1320707 - 12/07/09 10:15 PM Re: Beethoven vs. Chopin. [Re: sotto voce]
Damon Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 5916
Loc: St. Louis area
I think Beethoven could have kicked Chopin's a....rear. Or in other words, what an awesome thread!
_________________________
Prepositions are not words to end sentences with.

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#1320709 - 12/07/09 10:16 PM Re: Beethoven vs. Chopin. [Re: wr]
xtraheat Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/20/07
Posts: 625
Loc: WV
You still haven't said what was wrong with his question
_________________________
Currently working on
Prokofiev Piano Concerto 3
Beethoven Sonata Op.109
Chopin Op.10 No.1
Bach WTC II no. 15

--Sam--

Top
#1320711 - 12/07/09 10:17 PM Re: Beethoven vs. Chopin. [Re: Mark_C]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7426
Originally Posted By: MarkCannon
Please at least consider that he's as right on this as your might be.
I think he's righter.


That who is as right about what?

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#1320729 - 12/07/09 10:37 PM Re: Beethoven vs. Chopin. [Re: xtraheat]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7426
Originally Posted By: xtraheat
You still haven't said what was wrong with his question


I said it in my original post in this thread, and others have said more or less the same thing.

The main thing is that he was asking for a comparison that just can't reasonably be made, and it can't reasonably be made for a couple of reasons. One is that the demands of the two pieces are not directly comparable in terms of difficulty - the styles of writing for the piano are very different, but both have significant hurdles. Can anybody really say whether the octave glissando passage in the Beethoven is more difficult than the fast double notes in the Chopin, for example? I sure can't.

The other reason is that nobody can answer the question for the OP anyway; only the person doing the playing can answer that, and hopefully, if they are capable of playing advanced music of this kind, they should be able to sort out which is the harder for them. Or perhaps decide it is a tossup. It is entirely possible that even if all of us here universally agreed that the Beethoven was harder, the OP might have a tougher time with the Chopin. I don't think any of us can say which is the harder for any given pianist, unless we are intimately familiar with their playing and technical development, such as a teacher would be.

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#1320730 - 12/07/09 10:38 PM Re: Beethoven vs. Chopin. [Re: wr]
jotur Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 5283
Loc: Santa Fe, NM
I don't play this repertoire, or at this level. But from my experience with mathematics, or accounting, or skiing, or any number of other activities, I think "at this level you have the experience and judgement to figure this out, and what's more you have far more knowledge of your abilities than anyone on this forum" is a more than legitimate response. And one which I didn't think anyone here was rude about. The response that "the two pieces are so different, and piano players are so different, that one can't make a comparison that says one is harder than the other" also seems like a legitimate response to me, and I didn't find any rudeness in any of those responses. I didn't find it rude that posters pointed out that the question was/is essentially unanswerable.

But MarkC's insistence that so many here are so out of line, as he seems to think here and in a couple of other threads, seems - hm, what was that word I used? - smug, that was it - to me smile

But, as Mark says, he's not perfect smile We can agree on that.

Cathy
_________________________

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#1320741 - 12/07/09 11:02 PM Re: Beethoven vs. Chopin. [Re: jotur]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19292
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: jotur
....as Mark says, he's not perfect smile We can agree on that.

I don't remember saying it, but I certainly agree. ha

To me the issue is that people who take the attitude that I criticized are discouraging new and younger members from being here via put-down and intimidation, however unintended.

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#1320756 - 12/07/09 11:30 PM Re: Beethoven vs. Chopin. [Re: Mark_C]
tsunami713 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/06/09
Posts: 11
Loc: Turlock, CA, USA
Guys stop arguing. This forum is here to bring together people to share their love of one of the most beautiful languages in the world-music, and especially piano. I believe that it would be interesting to see different people's views on the subject i brought up and from the said perspectives, get some understanding of how the majority of you believe these pieces should be performed. On the contrary to my expectations, we are talking about social aspects of the forums.

Whether I could answer the question myself or not is totally off topic, because I would not have posted the question if I could have received the answer I wanted by myself. I think we should agree on this point too.

I believe we should focus less on what we have been talking about, and more on what makes each piece difficult or what could make each piece more difficult than the other through a more detailed explanation as to why is this particular section of the piece for example the coda of the 4th Ballade, harder, than the coda of the 3rd movement of the waldstein. Or how the shaping is harder in ___, or more along these lines.

Thank you!
_________________________
Current Official Repertoire:
Bach-Sinfonia #2,#4,#6,#9,#15
Beethoven-Waldstein
Chopin-Ballade in F Minor, Nocturne in B Major (#3)
Scriabin-Etude Op.8 No.12
Rachmaninoff-Prelude in G# Minor (#12)
Prokofieff-Sonata #1



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#1320763 - 12/07/09 11:41 PM Re: Beethoven vs. Chopin. [Re: tsunami713]
jotur Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 5283
Loc: Santa Fe, NM
tsunami713 - those are far more specific issues than your first post implied :), just as the information about needing to have something ready by Feb 26 was more specific than your first post. So, I still don't see that the responses to your first post were off topic. And, it appears to me, that many of the answers are, still - it depends. On your abilities, on your experience. For one pianist perhaps one of those codas is harder, for another the other one. One might discuss how they are different for each of us, but - from what I read here, for this repertoire, "harder" isn't really a definable issue in any absolute way. So I guess I agree with wr - there are more accurate ways of asking what you want to know, since "which is harder" still doesn't, to me, appear to be a question with an answer.

JMO of course.

Cathy
_________________________

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#1320765 - 12/07/09 11:52 PM Re: Beethoven vs. Chopin. [Re: tsunami713]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7426
Originally Posted By: tsunami713


Whether I could answer the question myself or not is totally off topic, because I would not have posted the question if I could have received the answer I wanted by myself. I think we should agree on this point too.


I believe we should focus less on what we have been talking about, and more on what makes each piece difficult or what could make each piece more difficult than the other through a more detailed explanation as to why is this particular section of the piece for example the coda of the 4th Ballade, harder, than the coda of the 3rd movement of the waldstein. Or how the shaping is harder in ___, or more along these lines.

Thank you!


I think you are trying to get some objective evaluation of which is the harder. But I personally don't think such a thing exists, and wonder why you do think it does, if that is what you are after. Is it because of what your teacher said? If so, maybe you could ask your teacher exactly what it is that makes the one more difficult than the other and let us know the response. Then we might have something more concrete to talk about.

On the other hand, it entirely possible to discuss the difficulties of each piece as a standalone piece. For example, simple stamina is an issue in the Beethoven, especially in the notorious passage of sixteenth note triplet broken chords that seems to go on forever. The mood changes in the Chopin are terribly difficult to grasp, and then to communicate, once grasped. Etc. Etc. Etc. I just have no idea how one would compare the two, though.







Edited by wr (12/07/09 11:54 PM)

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#1320767 - 12/08/09 12:00 AM Re: Beethoven vs. Chopin. [Re: tsunami713]
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
Originally Posted By: tsunami713
[...] Whether I could answer the question myself or not is totally off topic, because I would not have posted the question if I could have received the answer I wanted by myself. I think we should agree on this point too.

I don't agree with that at all.

Originally Posted By: tsunami713
I believe we should focus less on what we have been talking about, and more on what makes each piece difficult or what could make each piece more difficult than the other through a more detailed explanation as to why is this particular section of the piece for example the coda of the 4th Ballade, harder, than the coda of the 3rd movement of the waldstein. Or how the shaping is harder in ___, or more along these lines.

In my opinion, anyone with the technical ability to learn and play those pieces wouldn't need to ask those questions of other people.

The purpose of this thread is even less clear now than it was at the outset. I assumed that the original question was naive but sincere; it now appears that you want others to do your thinking for you.

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

Top
#1320768 - 12/08/09 12:01 AM Re: Beethoven vs. Chopin. [Re: wr]
tsunami713 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/06/09
Posts: 11
Loc: Turlock, CA, USA
Fair enough then. And I believe that objective can be created when the subjective of everyone is combined if possible. But as you said, why don't we analyze each piece separately.

By stamina, you mean that your wrist will eventually give in?

By mood changes in chopin, I believe the hardest mood change is actually in the first and second pages (between the first intro of the theme and the second intro of the theme). A lot of people won't notice it, but Gb6 diminished chord in the left hand implicates a minor tone change already, since the melody is exactly the same but the left hand chord changes. I believe its supposed to give it a sinking feel. I would actually say that this whole piece has an icy feel to it. Of course, its talking about love or beauty, romance etc..but particular in an icy tone. Its like a dance on ice I suppose!


Edited by tsunami713 (12/08/09 12:02 AM)
_________________________
Current Official Repertoire:
Bach-Sinfonia #2,#4,#6,#9,#15
Beethoven-Waldstein
Chopin-Ballade in F Minor, Nocturne in B Major (#3)
Scriabin-Etude Op.8 No.12
Rachmaninoff-Prelude in G# Minor (#12)
Prokofieff-Sonata #1



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#1320770 - 12/08/09 12:04 AM Re: Beethoven vs. Chopin. [Re: sotto voce]
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
WHAT AN AWESOME THREAD!!!!!!!!

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#1320771 - 12/08/09 12:05 AM Re: Beethoven vs. Chopin. [Re: sotto voce]
tsunami713 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/06/09
Posts: 11
Loc: Turlock, CA, USA

The purpose of this thread is even less clear now than it was at the outset. I assumed that the original question was naive but sincere; it now appears that you want others to do your thinking for you.

Steven [/quote]

This isn't a calculus question. You can't simply have other people think for you. And this should be a discussion not a flame thread. This topic isn't just simply answering a question. As all forum topics are, they are here to provide a good discussion of what different pianists all over the world believe. We are not experts on debate or literature. You're simply missing the point-simply to talk about piano.
_________________________
Current Official Repertoire:
Bach-Sinfonia #2,#4,#6,#9,#15
Beethoven-Waldstein
Chopin-Ballade in F Minor, Nocturne in B Major (#3)
Scriabin-Etude Op.8 No.12
Rachmaninoff-Prelude in G# Minor (#12)
Prokofieff-Sonata #1



Top
#1320776 - 12/08/09 12:11 AM Re: Beethoven vs. Chopin. [Re: tsunami713]
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
tsunami713,

I stand corrected. Your last two posts have given me a much better sense of the purpose of this thread.

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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