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#1320805 - 12/08/09 01:10 AM Re: Beethoven vs. Chopin. [Re: tsunami713]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19590
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: tsunami713
This isn't a calculus question.....And this should be a discussion not a flame thread. This topic isn't just simply answering a question. As all forum topics are, they are here to provide a good discussion of what different pianists all over the world believe. We are not experts on debate or literature. You're simply missing the point-simply to talk about piano.

Bravo!!!

I'm thrilled that you came back on here, and that you helped get the discussion to this better level. And, need I say, you're doing a great job.

There's an irony here, IMO. Putting things in admittedly simplified terms, some of your 'critics' are sort of saying that you were a bit dense in your questions and posts. The irony is that they themselves are being limited (and rigid) in their apparent view of what is or isn't reasonable material for a discussion forum, not to mention for human discourse in general. I see that some have come around, with your having clarified where you were coming from. I wish they could find it in themselves to be more open to such possibilities from the git-go, especially with new and young members; you shouldn't have to work so hard to show it to them.

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#1320807 - 12/08/09 01:12 AM Re: Beethoven vs. Chopin. [Re: sotto voce]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19590
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: sotto voce
tsunami713,

I stand corrected. Your last two posts have given me a much better sense of the purpose of this thread.

I hadn't??? ha

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#1320815 - 12/08/09 01:23 AM Re: Beethoven vs. Chopin. [Re: Mark_C]
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
Originally Posted By: MarkCannon
There's an irony here, IMO. Putting things in admittedly simplified terms, some of your 'critics' are sort of saying that you were a bit dense in your questions and posts. The irony is that they themselves are being limited (and rigid) in their apparent view of what is or isn't reasonable material for a discussion forum, not to mention for human discourse in general.

There's irony here, no doubt about it, but that's not it.

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#1320817 - 12/08/09 01:32 AM Re: Beethoven vs. Chopin. [Re: Mark_C]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5891
Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: MarkCannon
The irony is that they themselves are being limited (and rigid) in their apparent view of what is or isn't reasonable material for a discussion forum, not to mention for human discourse in general. I see that some have come around, with your having clarified where you were coming from. I wish they could find it in themselves to be more open to such possibilities from the git-go, especially with new and young members; you shouldn't have to work so hard to show it to them.
Oh do give it a rest!
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

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#1320818 - 12/08/09 01:40 AM Re: Beethoven vs. Chopin. [Re: currawong]
Frozenicicles Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/02/09
Posts: 1324
Loc: Canada
Alrighty, I actually don't know any of the pieces that the OP has posted (me and my limited repertoire...sigh), but I'm going to take the plunge and try to bring this thread back on topic. So a few questions for the OP to get the more knowledgeable forum members thinking:

1) What techniques do you typically have the most trouble with? (e.g. playing cleanly and rapidly, pedaling, etc.)
2) Which composer do you find harder to understand interpretively?

And for those who have studied or performed these works, simply state which one you think is harder and why, without over-analyzing why the question was asked.

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#1320819 - 12/08/09 01:46 AM Re: Beethoven vs. Chopin. [Re: currawong]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7738
Originally Posted By: currawong
Originally Posted By: MarkCannon
The irony is that they themselves are being limited (and rigid) in their apparent view of what is or isn't reasonable material for a discussion forum, not to mention for human discourse in general. I see that some have come around, with your having clarified where you were coming from. I wish they could find it in themselves to be more open to such possibilities from the git-go, especially with new and young members; you shouldn't have to work so hard to show it to them.
Oh do give it a rest!


Couldn't have said it better myself. grin

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#1320820 - 12/08/09 01:49 AM Re: Beethoven vs. Chopin. [Re: wr]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19590
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: wr
Couldn't have said it better myself. grin

Great. Let's see what you can do better. ha

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#1320823 - 12/08/09 01:50 AM Re: Beethoven vs. Chopin. [Re: currawong]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19590
Loc: New York
There -- done. smile

P.S. Before you criticize me too much, realize that something may have been accomplished here.

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#1320824 - 12/08/09 01:53 AM Re: Beethoven vs. Chopin. [Re: Frozenicicles]
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
Originally Posted By: MarkCannon
Originally Posted By: sotto voce
tsunami713,

I stand corrected. Your last two posts have given me a much better sense of the purpose of this thread.

I hadn't??? ha

You can't make this stuff up.

Originally Posted By: Frozenicicles
And for those who have studied or performed these works, simply state which one you think is harder and why, without over-analyzing why the question was asked.

Nor this.

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#1320828 - 12/08/09 02:05 AM Re: Beethoven vs. Chopin. [Re: sotto voce]
Frozenicicles Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/02/09
Posts: 1324
Loc: Canada
Umm...I was just making a tentative suggestion, but I'm sorry if I offended you. It's rather amusing how the Beethoven vs. Chopin thread has turned into a PW against each other thread. help

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#1320832 - 12/08/09 02:08 AM Re: Beethoven vs. Chopin. [Re: Frozenicicles]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19590
Loc: New York
I completely didn't understand what he thought couldn't be 'made up," about my post or yours.

(I mean, maybe about mine a little bit ha but not yours.)

I expect to be put down for this post too.

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#1320833 - 12/08/09 02:12 AM Re: Beethoven vs. Chopin. [Re: tsunami713]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7738
Originally Posted By: tsunami713
Fair enough then. And I believe that objective can be created when the subjective of everyone is combined if possible. But as you said, why don't we analyze each piece separately.

By stamina, you mean that your wrist will eventually give in?



Not really. It's that the piece requires some really big bursts of energy, over and over, and in that particular passage, it is difficult to start with a high level of energy in that broken chord figuration and maintain it all the way to the end, together with adding in the sforzandi. You just get tired. The figuration is somewhat awkward, for one thing.

Quote:


By mood changes in chopin, I believe the hardest mood change is actually in the first and second pages (between the first intro of the theme and the second intro of the theme). A lot of people won't notice it, but Gb6 diminished chord in the left hand implicates a minor tone change already, since the melody is exactly the same but the left hand chord changes. I believe its supposed to give it a sinking feel. I would actually say that this whole piece has an icy feel to it. Of course, its talking about love or beauty, romance etc..but particular in an icy tone. Its like a dance on ice I suppose!


For me, the mood seems to frequently shift throughout the piece, and it is very hard to create a through-line of musical sense, because the structure is not straightforward. The mood shifts don't seem particularly "logical" to me on the surface. I have rarely heard even professional performances that convince me all the way through from first note to last. More often, I get the sense that the pianist is sort of wandering around sniffing the emotional flowers and making pretty sounds until the coda, when suddenly things get all serious and dramatic for no particular reason at all. No compelling story has been told, and I think Chopin is one of the story-telling composers, at least in most of his works.

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#1320835 - 12/08/09 02:19 AM Re: Beethoven vs. Chopin. [Re: Frozenicicles]
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
Originally Posted By: MarkCannon
I completely didn't understand what he thought couldn't be 'made up," about my post or yours.

(I mean, maybe about mine a little bit ha but not yours.)

I expect to be put down for this post too.

I wonder how a newcomer decides so quickly that he's got everything figured out and that it's necessary to apprise everyone of such through constant, condescending, divisive, self-congratulatory commentary. Will the continual dissection and analysis of threads' dynamics and the persistent criticism of others' opinions and posting styles ever end? Does the psychiatrist imagine himself a pastor, and this his pulpit for preaching?

In particular, I really can't understand why a mature mental health professional would want to have an overbearing, omniscient and omnipresent posting persona—or why anyone presumably trained to diagnose and treat narcissism and other pathologies would apparently have no self-awareness whatsoever.

Originally Posted By: Frozenicicles
Umm...I was just making a tentative suggestion, but I'm sorry if I offended you. It's rather amusing how the Beethoven vs. Chopin thread has turned into a PW against each other thread. help

Your "tentative suggestion" was worded as a directive; as an attempt to control the course of this thread, it seemed as patronizing as any other that's been made here.

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#1320839 - 12/08/09 02:32 AM Re: Beethoven vs. Chopin. [Re: sotto voce]
Frozenicicles Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/02/09
Posts: 1324
Loc: Canada
I'm sorry if my post sounded like I was trying to patronizingly cut off your conversation, sotto voce, since that was not my intention. I guess in forums you can't really communicate your tone of voice and facial expressions, so it's easy for people to interpret things differently than the intended message. I was simply thinking about how the OP's question might be addressed by members of the forum who had knowledge about those pieces, and perhaps I didn't word my opinion in the most helpful manner.

Now that I think about it, reading a forum post is rather like looking at a score. All the notes are there but sometimes you have no idea what message the composer intended (as wr insightfully pointed out about some interpretations of the Chopin piece).

I'm afraid I do have to disagree with you on one point...the length of time that a poster has been around PW or his/her profession shouldn't be a basis of judging their posts. I myself prefer a forum with old and new members from many diverse backgrounds and experiences.

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#1320840 - 12/08/09 02:37 AM Re: Beethoven vs. Chopin. [Re: Frozenicicles]
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
I didn't invent the word upstart (or the concept), and anyone who doesn't think that one's profession is fair game for commentary needn't include it in one's profile.

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#1320841 - 12/08/09 02:42 AM Re: Beethoven vs. Chopin. [Re: Frozenicicles]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7738
Originally Posted By: Frozenicicles
Umm...I was just making a tentative suggestion, but I'm sorry if I offended you. It's rather amusing how the Beethoven vs. Chopin thread has turned into a PW against each other thread. help


But much of the discussion was exactly about why it is basically impossible to do what you blithely just asked us to do, as if none of the previous part of the thread existed!!! At any rate, it's still close to the full moon, so this kind of outbreak of cantankerousness is to be expected. smile

In answer to your post -

Over the years, I have as an amateur somewhat haphazardly studied both pieces, although not with an expectation of performing them. Years ago, as a student, I did perform the first movement of the Waldstein, to give you an idea of where I am coming from. I am pretty familiar with them at the keyboard, anyhow. But I can't say which I think is more difficult, and that isn't some game I'm playing, but the truth. They are both very difficult, but in very different ways.

I really don't think it is possible to make that kind of "what's hardest" determination for a vast number of unique masterpieces that require virtuoso chops. They all pose unique problems for the player, so there's really not much basis I can think of on which to do that kind of comparison. And I also think it always really boils down to "what is the most difficult for me", and only the individual pianist can answer that (if they think it is important to do so).

Of course, if you are out to impress judges at a competition, that shifts the question into a different realm, but that's not what the OP asked.

I also think that grading systems tend to give people the idea that difficulty is some neatly categorized affair, but it isn't, especially when you get into advanced music. It's mostly opinions, and when applied to any individual, those opinions may not hold up very well.

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#1320844 - 12/08/09 02:57 AM Re: Beethoven vs. Chopin. [Re: Frozenicicles]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19590
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Frozenicicles
.....I'm afraid I do have to disagree with you on one point...the length of time that a poster has been around PW or his/her profession shouldn't be a basis of judging their posts....

Thanks for that. That's another aspect of some people's posts that I simply do not understand. The things that I've said on here don't depend on longevity.

I know you're not 'taking sides' in this and I'm glad for that, among other reasons because it's just ugly. But I very much appreciate your making it clear that people here don't necessarily share that view.

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#1320845 - 12/08/09 02:58 AM Re: Beethoven vs. Chopin. [Re: wr]
Frozenicicles Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/02/09
Posts: 1324
Loc: Canada
Very good points, wr. I suppose it's different for every pianist, but I find that there are some composers or pieces that I "get" more easily than others. In terms of comparing the composers in general, I find that Beethoven pieces come a lot easier to me than Chopin does.

It's hard to classify pieces to one difficulty or another, as we've also discussed on the Mozart sonatas thread. I think exam boards tend to expect more from the performance of a piece when it's put at a higher level, but that piece may not intrinsically be more difficult than ones on lower levels. I've gone through an examination board system myself and the pieces that I thought were the easiest to learn and master, I scored the lowest because I was expected to play them with more finesse than some of the "harder" ones. If examiners expected a kid's Fur Elise to be like Valentina Lisitsa's, it'd probably be placed on one of the higher levels of difficulty.

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#1320853 - 12/08/09 03:30 AM Re: Beethoven vs. Chopin. [Re: Frozenicicles]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19590
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Frozenicicles
......It's hard to classify pieces to one difficulty or another.....

It sure is, even more so when it's something like comparing pieces of different composers like Beethoven and Chopin. I mean, I tried anyway smile but not much.

While on one hand I think it's a bit futile to do rankings of difficulty, I'm also fascinated by them. I remember being transfixed when I first saw the "gradings" of the difficulty of Beethoven's works in Schirmer's von Bulow edition (the gradings apparently done by somebody named Sigmund Lebert). It was even better than seeing rankings of center fielders. smile

Even after I came to feel that such rankings were a bit silly, I still kept coming back to them with curiosity. I must admit I would feel good when I saw that something I was playing was ranked high -- and a bit inadequate when it was the reverse.

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#1321182 - 12/08/09 03:34 PM Re: Beethoven vs. Chopin. [Re: Mark_C]
FunkyLlama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 359
Good God, I weep tears of blood every time I see that 'Ha-Ha' smiley.

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#1321263 - 12/08/09 05:52 PM Re: Beethoven vs. Chopin. [Re: FunkyLlama]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6049
Loc: St. Louis area
What's the record for number of posts in one month?
_________________________
Prepositions are not words to end sentences with.

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#1321268 - 12/08/09 05:59 PM Re: Beethoven vs. Chopin. [Re: Damon]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6049
Loc: St. Louis area

Quote:
1. Which is harder in your opinion. the 3rd mvmt of waldstein or Chopin's F Minor Ballade?


The F Minor Ballade

Quote:

2. Is the F Minor Ballade really the hardest of the four ballades?

No, the G minor Ballade is the hardest.

Quote:

3. I've listened to the 4th scherzo by chopin. sounds hard, but does anybody know how difficult that is compared to either the waldstein or the ballade i'm playing.


It's harder than both the Ballade, and the 3rd mvmt of the Waldstein.


Edited by Damon (12/08/09 06:38 PM)
_________________________
Prepositions are not words to end sentences with.

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#1321275 - 12/08/09 06:10 PM Re: Beethoven vs. Chopin. [Re: Damon]
xtraheat Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/20/07
Posts: 625
Loc: WV
IMO, the 4th Scherzo is the hardest of the three, but that's just me
_________________________
Currently working on
Prokofiev Piano Concerto 3
Beethoven Sonata Op.109
Chopin Op.10 No.1
Bach WTC II no. 15

--Sam--

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#1321288 - 12/08/09 06:37 PM Re: Beethoven vs. Chopin. [Re: xtraheat]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6049
Loc: St. Louis area
I agree, I mistyped before. I'll go back and fix that.
_________________________
Prepositions are not words to end sentences with.

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#1321400 - 12/08/09 10:00 PM Re: Beethoven vs. Chopin. [Re: FunkyLlama]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19590
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: FunkyLlama
Good God, I weep tears of blood every time I see that 'Ha-Ha' smiley.

Any time! ha

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#1321420 - 12/08/09 10:39 PM Re: Beethoven vs. Chopin. [Re: xtraheat]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8796
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: xtraheat
IMO, the 4th Scherzo is the hardest of the three, but that's just me

I suppose only one who has played all four in concert could really answer that. My 'big' piece was the Bb minor, but I never seriously worked on the others, though I certainly have read through all of them.

Good grief, that Bb minor was a nightmare, and I found it a major challenge. And whatever your opinion about Argerich, her Bb minor has an insolent -and disgusting- ease to it which ultimately I found very discouraging. Even if you don't care for the interpretation, you have to admire her technical address. It is utterly amazing.

In the central sections, Argerich properly brings out those delicious 'inner voices', though admittedly without the cold poise of Michelangeli. IMO, Argerich owns this piece. Everyone else is boring.
_________________________
Jason

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#1321424 - 12/08/09 10:48 PM Re: Beethoven vs. Chopin. [Re: argerichfan]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19590
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
Originally Posted By: xtraheat
IMO, the 4th Scherzo is the hardest of the three, but that's just me

I suppose only one who has played all four in concert could really answer that.....

.....and even then they could answer it only for themselves. For me the Beethoven would be the 'hardest' of any of these pieces, but I imagine that for most pianists it would come in behind both the 4th ballade and 4th scherzo.

P.S. I can't stop being amused by that phrase, ".....the 4th scherzo is the hardest of the three." smile smile

The phrase looks like it can't be OK, but if we know what it's about, it is.

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#1321503 - 12/09/09 12:29 AM Re: Beethoven vs. Chopin. [Re: Mark_C]
PartyPianist Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/05/09
Posts: 281
I play Waldstein and 4th Ballade to performance standard (I guess). I also play the other ballades and all the other sonatas (including Chopin's) and all the scherzo's as well. All offer different challenges. None are "not hard" (with the exception of Beethoven's sonatines and no 25).

I have neither mastered (as an absolute) the Waldstein (20 years of performance rehearsal) nor 4th Ballade (10 years), if that puts things "in perspective".
_________________________
You play it & I'll hum it, but currently rehearsing:

Bach WTC book 2 no 15 G major, no 20 A minor, no 22 Bb Minor
Mozart A minor Sonata K310
Mendelssohn Op 35 preludes and fuges
Busoni Carmen Fantasy
Rachmaninov Bb prelude OP 23 no 2
Lyapunov Humoreske Op 34
and others

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#1321529 - 12/09/09 01:00 AM Re: Beethoven vs. Chopin. [Re: PartyPianist]
tsunami713 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/06/09
Posts: 11
Loc: Turlock, CA, USA
Maybe those 10 years and 20 years don't really count because you're playing so many pieces in your repertoire. those 20 years i bet only count like a couple weeks or maybe, just maybe, a month if you didn't play anything else.
_________________________
Current Official Repertoire:
Bach-Sinfonia #2,#4,#6,#9,#15
Beethoven-Waldstein
Chopin-Ballade in F Minor, Nocturne in B Major (#3)
Scriabin-Etude Op.8 No.12
Rachmaninoff-Prelude in G# Minor (#12)
Prokofieff-Sonata #1



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#1321780 - 12/09/09 01:06 PM Re: Beethoven vs. Chopin. [Re: tsunami713]
xtraheat Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/20/07
Posts: 625
Loc: WV
You have played every single Beethoven Sonata?
_________________________
Currently working on
Prokofiev Piano Concerto 3
Beethoven Sonata Op.109
Chopin Op.10 No.1
Bach WTC II no. 15

--Sam--

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