Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Digital Pianos - Electronic Pianos - Synths & Keyboards Yamaha P-155 sympathetic resonance

As others have already stated, there is no sympathetic string resonance on the P155. heck, even Synthogy Ivory doesn't have resonance, which sucks from a playing point of view, but in terms of recording and playback isn't such a big issue to me personally. This is an area in which Pianoteq obviously shines.

On the P155 there is no looping as far as I can tell. However, I'd agree that the sampling is interpolated (not every key sampled). There are some quality issues with the tenor range on the P155, in my opinion -- it just doesn't sound very clear at all. Something noticeably "wrong" with the sound if you listen carefully. It is even more apparent when you use the sustain pedal; all the clarity is reduced to mush. Compare with Synthogy Ivory's sampled Steinway which actually has a reputation for being unrealistically flat and clean.

I'd have to agree with dewster that PC based software is still ahead of 90% of DPs out there.

I think this will remain the case as long as Computers have much more powerful processors inside of them. This is what makes the the software instruments better, they simply have more CPU cycles available and can run more detailed models.

When you ask for a better DP, rather then specifying the technology to be used it would be better to specify the result. What we need is a way to specify the quality of the sound. We need a vocabulary for talking about the sound.

Thanks very much for your impression of the P-155, it helps me very much! If you can tell there is note stretching then I know I definitely am not interested in it. Do you know of a similarly priced DP that has better sound?



Are you saying that 10% of DPs out there that can compete with PC based stuff? Which ones are they (not counting the V-Piano)?

Yes, but they are also running a non-real-time bloated operating system. Get Windows (or OS-X) out of the way and you can get by with a ~$10 ARM or similar (this will happen with netbooks soon). A small FPGA would probably help as well.



Well, part of the vocabulary is:
1. Is every key individually sampled?
2. How many velocity layers?
3. Are there pedal up and pedal down velocity layers, or what?
4. Is looping employed?
5. Is the sympathetic resonance modeled?

But Yamaha evidently considers this proprietary information, not to be disclosed to anyone on penalty of death. So much for your vocabulary.

DP manufacturers have met the enemy, and they are the consumer.

Well, I know that the Kawai ES6 does simulate sympathetic resonance to an extent; what they call "Harmonic Imaging" or something. It falls into the same price range as the P155. However personally I found the overall tone of the P155 preferable to the ES6's. One very strong point of the ES6, acknowledged by everyone I know who's played one, is its fantastic bass sound. Yamaha pianos (in general) do not have the nicest bass tone for classical music.

A good sample library like Synthogy Ivory sounds vastly superior to the P155. Although at one time I was satisfied with the P155, now having used Ivory I can't go back! Depending on your needs, you might find the software route superior in terms of sound -- beware though that it isn't exactly easy to set up, and it definitely isn't hassle-free in getting everything working nicely.

Can someone outline again why DP manufacturers can't, or won't, rely on modern, cheap consumer grade hardware to achieve superior sound? Why does $300 worth of piano samples surpass a $3000 DP's sound? If Synthogy Ivory "only" requires about 50GB, why not put it on a cheap but reliable 10,000RPM embedded hard drive? Throw in 2GB of RAM and tweak the embedded operating system to work with this new hardware and the larger sample library. Latency wouldn't be an issue at this scale, there's basically just the read latency off the hard drive which is minimal.

DP design has remained unchanged since the 1980s; manufacturers and consumers are content to work with "state of the art" that's decades old. I understand there's a strong disincentive for manufacturers to not rock the boat and change the status quo -- after all, it works "good enough" for most DP consumers out there. One of the bigger reasons must be the small size of the enthusiast market. The market's tiny, and hence innovation is at a snail's pace compared to other computing/electronic technologies.

It's like with calculators: They are basically rugged designs with relatively slow CPUs that are outclassed by e.g. the iPhone. I mean, the TI-89 is still available after a decade or so with minimal changes, so low-end DP progress has not stalled as much as calculator progress.

OTOH, if you put a hard drive in a DP, it might become less reliable and more prone to electronics failures. If dewster's dream instrument will ever get built, it would need to be treated with more care than a "normal" DP.

How does a Tyros store its samples by the way? Aren't they using hard disks in there already?

Yes, I own a nice C7 sample from VintAudio that I use from time to time for rendering MIDI. I have played around quite a bit with the Pianoteq demo and plan to purchase it some day as it is much simpler to render MIDI with, sounds very realistic, isn't a resource hog, and is a fascinatingly tweakable product otherwise.



It is a mystery. My theory is they are just lazy and overly dependent on clueless consumers. And I for one am not going to take it any more. Someone wake me up when the DP manufacturers get their collective crap together.



Well, they scraped up enough R&D cash to make the V-Piano, and they continue to crank out strange things like the Avant Grand. My feeling is the market isn't all that tiny. The DP room down at Guitar center is just as big as the acoustic guitar room (if that is any indication of sales / profits).

[quote=dewster]...and they continue to crank out strange things like the Avant Grand.

Why is the Avant Grant strange?

Cheers,
James
x

A quick check at newegg shows a bunch 64 GB solid state (Flash-based) hard drives for ~$150. Ultra durable (can withstand 150,000g shock or something crazy like that) and super-duper read bandwidth (a big plus if you go the rompler route, and also gives you a really fast boot-up).

That's normal retail price, they go on sale for quite a bit less every now and then.

Well, strange to me. The whole thing screams "LOOK AT OUR LATEST GIMMICK"!

Vibrational feedback is interesting, as is the multi-dimensional sampling (if they indeed do that), but it probably has looping.

People who consider a piano to be first and foremost a piece of furniture will probably like it however. And the brochure for it is probably pretty. It's hard for me to work up any enthusiasm for this sort of thing, I just can't take it seriously.

dewster, to be perfectly honest, I do not believe you are in a position to pass judgement until you actually play the instrument.

Cheers,
James
x

That's like me going to the dealer to buy a commuter car, and the dealer telling me I need to test drive a pickup first. There's no point! I already know what I want and it ain't a pickup.

The Avant grand seems to be an attempt to recreate the piano playing EXPERIENCE (and make a piece of furniture).

I, however, am interested in a portable DP (or box, or rackmount) that faithfully reproduces the SOUND of a real piano.

If they had the SOUND nailed, and were then moving on to nailing the EXPERIENCE, I (or, more properly, my wife and her students) might be more interested, but without the SOUND nailed I am not interested at all.

Dewster, I think what James is trying to say is that you are bagging on the Avant Grand without even having played it. Give it a test run before saying the sound hasn't been nailed. Or, perhaps I missed that you've actually experienced it. Maybe you can clarify- thanks.

There's no point in demoing it.

If it doesn't have Pianoteq (or similar modeling) or at least 2 GB of samples under the hood, then by very definition the sound hasn't been nailed.

Also the N3 weighs 438lbs, which is about 400lbs more than I am willing to schlep around.

Dewster, I understand that the Avant Grand doesn't fit within your parameters for DP needs BUT why NOT try it out? I wouldn't mind trying out a Cadillac for fun even though I'm looking for towing rig, if given the opportunity. Trying out DPs is way simpler than test driving cars. Conversation regarding actual models is far more interesting with first hand experience descriptions. It can confirm your previous notions OR maybe it will surprise you! It would be fun to hear your actual observations even though you're not looking to buy one. I would try one if I had access to one. Just my thoughts.

Oh, if it were just sitting there in the DP demo room at GC I'd probably tickle the ivories. I'm not completely incurious, just rather burned out from seeing slight, almost inconsequential, variations on the same DP stuff year after year after year.

But I'd never for a minute consider buying one, knowing (from an EE standpoint) the sounds cannot be up to the standards I'm looking for in a DP. We already have a real piano, I'm not interested in something that approximates the weight of it while delivering inferior (from a real piano standpoint) sound.

-UPDATE-

I spent some time down at the local Sam Ash store yesterday. Played mainly with:

- Yamaha P-155 (see below)
- Yamaha P-85 (not bad for single layer, though I could clearly hear 3 note stretching)
- Casio PX-330 (hated it)

The P-155 was hanging on the wall at an unplayable angle and dead, had to get someone to find the AC adapter & put it on a real stand. Spent an hour or so barking my shins against the double 'X' stand and playing with the controls.

First off, I have no clue why, with all the buttons on this thing, they bury some voices under an "others" button, which relies on cryptic codes on a three digit 7-segment LED display to tell you what you've selected. Are a few more buttons or a one-line LCD too much to ask at this price-point? In a performance situation you need to be sure what voice you will be playing BEFORE you start playing. Yeesh...

Anyway, I could clearly hear looping, but there are a few seconds of solid, real sample before that, with a smooth transition into the looping phase. If you can tolerate looping, the here looping is fairly well done.

I wandered without a guide into primitive Yamaha 7-segment function land and managed to alter the "Sustain Sample Depth" as well as the "Damper Resonance Effect Depth". I couldn't hear the sound of felt dampers working on the strings, but maybe that was due to the Buddy Rich solo going on an aisle over, even though I had sealed headphones on. When I turned them both up to maximum I noticed a horrible beating sound when I played the middle D key. Turning it down, it sounded more like a pseudo-reverb and not so much like sympathetic resonance. Yamaha, if you're listening, this really needs work. At this point in it's development (making the huge assumption that they actually try to improve anything in DP land) it's so lame I'm not sure I'd even advertise it as I wouldn't want to call attention to it.

Otherwise, the P-155 was incredibly similar, some would say TOO similar, to our P-120. Pretty much the same sample set, implemented pretty much the same way. Except with fewer voice buttons. And probably a couple of more watts going to the speakers. But that's it. If anyone is looking at the P-155 but has the opportunity to snag a P-120 for somewhat less, I'd say go with the P-120.

I think it's rather sad that an old 2001 out-of-production Yamaha is nearly kicking the ass of the unit (P-155) built to replace the unit (P-140) that replaced it (P-120).

dewster, I expect the main differences between the P-120 and P-155 are the improved piano sounds on the newer model.

Kind regards,
James
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We may be buying one for the local church my wife plays for. If I hear any significant differences in the piano sample I'll post it here.

Auditory memory is notoriously unreliable, so this demands a true head-to-head comparison.

I'll try to put a sample at Purgatory Creek as well (if we get it).