Hi, maybe you can help me, I'm new at this forum...

I'm interested in purchasing a new digital piano, for an intermediate level of playing.

The most important thing I'm looking for is realism, to a real acoustic piano. Second thing most important to me is sound quality, and everything else (poliphony, midi, etc.) is somewhat irrelevant.

I'm between these, tell me what you think:

- Casio PX 130 and PX 330
- Korg SP 250 and LP 350
- Casio AP 200, Ap-33 and AP 400
- Yamaha DGX 630

My budget is a little tight (500 - 800 USD).

By the way, I live in Argentina, so we don't have all the piano models that you have there in Europe and the US.

Here are other piano models I can get here (remember my budget):

http://www.muziknet.com.ar/pianosdigitales.html
http://www.royalconcert.com.ar/ppal.asp?RubroX=69&MarcaX=Todas#

Thanks!

I have no comments on the specific models you mentioned, but would point out that poliphony IS critical to achieving an authentic acoustic piano sound. My advice: play each model and determine which one sounds best to YOU. If that model is in your price range, than you have your answer.

Do you pay with headphones?

I think you may care about midi. The best sound is from software instruments on a computer, you need midi for that.

You are going to have to try each yourself. There is no easy way to describe the feel of the key action. With your budget I'd say to buy thepiano with the key action you like best and ignore the other features. Later to can upgrade the sound if you want using midi and computer software. Bt you can't upgrade key action

Hi, thank you for your answers.

I will not play with headphones, and I don't care much for MIDI...

Of course I will play each model and try it out with my own hands, I just wanted to know in advance what are the best models, considering what I'm looking for.

Of those specific models, which is the best? Would you recommend me another one?

No headphones? Then you need to care a little more about the built-in speakers. Of look for Line Out so you can plug in better speakers later.

The PX130 and PX330 have identical touch and sound. As you don't care about anything else ofthese to you may as well buy the less expensive px130.

The "630" is lots of features you don't want. Why not buy the less expensice P85? All Yamahas in your budget have the same GHS key action. It is light.

I think the Korg had good key action, maybe better than "GHS" but was not able to try an SP250. I tried a much more expensive Korg that happened to have the same key action.

All of the other Casios are older then the PX130 and PX330. People seem to say the newer one are improved.

I tried the SP-250 Chris. It was very nice, and had a nice balance and feel.

The weight of P-85 was nearly twice as light as the SP-250, and the piano sounds were good on both. I did find the Korg a little thin on top, and tubby on the bottom(something like my uncle Charlie ;)) but the mids on both were very good, unlike the Rolands I tried, that were rather thin from A below middle C to the C an octave above.

I also found the Yamaha action a teensy bit lighter, yet it still retained good overall control.

So, going by the lighter weight and nicer action (for my taste) I went with the P-85, although, I must say, the Korg has some terrific alternate sounds, and more of them.

Snazzy

Both Korg SP250 and Korg LP350 have the excellent RH3 keyboard action.

To my surprise by an email from Korg, the support answered today that both DPs have 2-level sample!!

Now we know what they mean by "multiple levels" of sample.

I would go for the SP250 if I wanted to save money.

Strange, ain't it Huygens. I can't hear "multiple levels" of sample in the SP-250. I suppose if I was told there had been, I might have convinced myself there was, but, I didn't hear anything over the single layer sample of the P-85.

Now, either Yamaha is making their single layer sample awfully good, or Korg is making their "two layer samples" awfully mediocre.

I'm inclined to go with the former idea, since I played both and wasn't told the difference till afterwards.

My sense of how a piano should respond from PPP to FFF was clearly pointed towards the Yamaha, and that's about as unbiased a view as you're going to get.

Snazzy

It could be both. My guess is that Yamaha plays some kind of electronic trick to fool the ear of the listener, while Korg has recorded the 2-level sampled sound just as it is, using very few smart technical tricks.

I've put a follow up question to Korg support and await answer.

Maybe their support is tricking me?

I'm going to look for that P85, I've read good reviews about it... Thank you for the suggestion!

By the way, what are "levels of sample"?

They are recordings of the piano sound made at different key velocities, which can then be used in the digital piano to recreate the piano sound--by playing the appropriate sample layer (or mix of layers) based on how hard the pianist hits the keys.

Actually, Martin, and I honestly don't mean to correct you, but I think it is velocity based rather than how hard you hit.

Of course, the harder you hit, the more likely you will hit faster, and I know it's a stupid little niggly bit of insignificant difference, but I couldn't keep my yap shut.

If I'm wrong, don't hit me too hard...under this extremely masculine and brilliant (and modest) personae, I'm very delicate.

Snazzy

True, the time integral of the force (the impulse) causes the final velocity. But if you strike the key with more force, then the consequent acceleration will be higher, and there will be less time for the impulse (because the distance stays constant), so the force has to increase very much to offset the decreasing time interval. So force and final velocity must be related somehow, which of course doesn't make them the same. (And of course the measurement on the DP itself uses the key velocity.)

The piano responds to the force with which the keys are initially pressed by changing how hard or fast the hammers strike the strings, which in turn changes the tone and volume of the resulting note or chord; it is velocity sensitive. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_expression#Velocity_sensitivity

I don't think that DPs can sense velocity.
Rather, they sense the force with which the key strikes the sensor.

Most keyboards have an SPDT switch on each key. To ameliorate the influence of switch bounce due to the inexpensive (some would say cheap) mechanism, they measure the time between the last break and the first make. This time measurement is then scaled and offset, and used as a velocity index into the sample set.

A sprung and weighted key takes force to move it, more force moves it more quickly. The measure of the quickness of movement is velocity.

Well, in an email to me Yamaha intimated that every key was sampled on the P-155, then in a separate voicemail to me took it back but wouldn't go into details. I'd be wary of anything any manufacturer says about sampling details as they consider it to be proprietary information.

Evidently they prefer we speculate wildly about these things in on-line forums - which is a stupid position for them to take as it can erode customer confidence, but there it is.

Why the false dichotomy?

Even if, for the sake of argument, we accept that the Korg SP-250 has a 2 layer sample, it is nonetheless a fairly poor sample (as these things go, and IMO). Yamaha has a fairly good-sounding single layer sample in P-85 (again, as these things go, and IMO).

Hey, there's nothing "false" about my dichotomies.

I make sure they are single layer dichotomy samples taken from real dichotomies.

Snazzy

First of all, thank you all for your comments, so far.

Next week I'll try out every piano, and then make a decision.

I've included the PX 730 to the list, it looks promising.

Well, after a lot of "digging", I finally decided to purchase the Kawai CL-35 for 1560 USD here in Argentina. In my opinion and after testing each one my own, Kawai is better than Casio and Korg. The Clavinovas and Rolands were too expensive for me.

The Kawai CL-35 feels very nice and the sound is amazing, I'm very, very happy with my new DP, hope it'll last at least a couple of decades.

Thank you all!