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I agree that the issue of not discussing pricing on the phone is antiquated and outdated in this day and age of the internet, mass information media and wireless communication.

As for my particular circumstance, my wife of 34 years is totally and severely disabled due to a brain tumor and is confined to a wheel chair. I am her primary care provider when I’m not at work, and I pay a sitter to stay with her during the day. It is difficult for me to travel long distances to visit piano stores and negotiate prices in person. The last time I visited a piano store and took my wife with me, in her wheel chair, there was no handicap access to get in the building and there was not hardly enough room between the pianos for the wheel chair and the salesperson asked me to be careful not to scratch the pianos with the wheel chair. I really didn’t like that comment, even though I understood why he would say it.

So, Marty, you said you were looking for honest, constructive criticism, and positive suggestions on how to improve the current marketing model for the piano business, so here goes… make your stores more handicap accessible and don’t be afraid to give firm prices over the phone.

Best regards,

Rick

Turandot,

I started a new thread as I thought this discussion was not completely germaine to the original poster's needs. I felt his thread about pricing over the phone had devolved into a dialogue between another and myself.

With all due respect, all your time on the Forum is not the same as listening to consumers on the scene every day. I have heard multiple complaints on each of the listed issues. Not looking for sympathy. I was simply looking to state a perspective. I don't write on the Forum to please people. I write to clarify, inform, identify misinformation, just as you do.

Yes, what consumers want in a piano store has not changed much since 2008, redundant or not.

Then again, you weren't really listening. The book helps you find what a reasonable price is (online for free, as mentioned again) quickly and easily, and if you narrowed your selections down to 2 pianos, you visit 2 stores that have the models in stock.

What exactly is the big problem with this? Are you prepared to wait for 2 separate Costco roadshows for Kawai and Yamaha? How exactly is that less trouble than visiting 2 dealers?

For me, there was no back and forth. I had a picture in my mind of what an acceptable price was, and the dealer met that expectation. Transaction was done the same day. Whoopty-do!

Welcome to the forum, by the way.

I've just skimmed this thread. I find it interesting, but... I really don't know how this kind of back and forth about the state of the industry helps anyone. Understandably, Marty feels he needs to stick up for us dealers/salespeople in a forum that is quite honestly anti-dealer much of the time.

The problem seems to always come down to something very simple: price.

cBeam's quest addresses this fundamental problem. Why can't a consumer just call and get a fair price over the phone?

There are many reasons you can't, some of them have to do with territoriality protection, some of them have to do with a sales strategy to get people in store. Most of time, people who call but are unwilling to come in are price shopping, using dealers against each other to get an unfair price (one that is way, way too low and unsustainable for any dealer to remain in business). Dealers and manufacturers see this (rightly so) as a slippery slope to unreasonable price expectations.. prices that would not allow anyone to stay in business for the long haul.

HOWEVER:

With so much info out there, especially pianobuyer and the pricing guide, it is very easy to find a fair price. It is right there before your eyes. Someone tell cBeam what a fair discount from Fine's SMP list is. I would but it is almost 11:20. I am busy from 11:20-11:30 today.

Is it possible to find a piano for a greater discount? Yes. I recently bought a $600 suit from Macy's for $40. I don't expect every purchase I make there to be discounted this much, though.

No, I don't have your perspective. That is true. But my business also involves customer service. I have war stories like everyone else involved in customer service. Such stories are shared in faculty meetings and through private channels, not in Internet chat rooms hopefully.

One thing to consider is just how contentious you want to be in presenting your perspective.

If you have a significant population of Asians who want to buy pianos in the box, I think Journey would tell you to deal with it, to make it work for you, not to moan and groan about it as you often do here. If the customer values something highly, perhaps you then go with the flow and charge more for it (if you catch my drift). Also, you don't want to inspire your local competition with marketing ideas to work against you.

If certain music teachers are gouging you for kickbacks larger than your commission slice of the pie, in your words: "outside sales commissions, freqently in excess of what the salesman earned", I'm not sure this is the place to be discussing it. Lots of music teachers here...they might think that you are being unfair in your comments. Do you want to alienate them? Again, competitors may also take notice. Do you want them poking into your private business issues? SoCal is a super-competitive market. You know that better than me. Lots of people read here who don't post here.

Finally, do you want to present Keyboard Concepts as a shop that welcomes and respects all sorts of customers (as it does) or as a place where customers may encounter some friction and possibly even hostility? You may think that's a ridiculous question but you get ornery with some frequency here, and I'm not sure that helps the company's image or yours. The last thing you should want is that customers call ahead to find out your day off so that they can avoid a fire-breathing dragon.

PS On your laundry list of what consumers demand, some of them may come up occasionaly, but you know what the big one is, and even though you didn't put it on your list, it's not going to go away.

turandot, if you drop by where Marty works, you'll find he's not a fire breathing dragon but a good guy to deal with as a customer.

As for pricing, I'm in the camp that finds it distasteful to have to haggle to buy something. Not that I'm unwilling to play the game, I've had car salesmen chase me down as I've driven off the lot!

But the last new car I purchased was through the Auto Club. No haggle, just find the car you like and purchase. A very nice experience.

It's too bad pianos can't be purchased the same way. Just my 2 cents.

This topic seems to rear up every few months.

There simply is no scenario for transparency in pricing beyond the kind of framework provided in Piano Buyer. As Marty [points out, many other scenarios have been tried. (I've even been a consultant on one or two.)

All have at least one of many fatal flaws.

Turandot,

My list does not reflect "customer service horror stories" as you indicated. I was sharing a common list of things that consumer demand dictates to piano retailers. Not my company, or my store exclusively, but the industry in general. I felt they directly pertain to the discussion of the "aptness" of the "traditional model" as so often discussed here. To ignor them in any discussion of discarding or altering the "model" would be to ignor the consumer. The items on the list come up more than just "occasionally". They are real and common. If there was any contention it stems from the notion that those outside the business "know the business".

The bulk of the customers in my area are in fact Asian and we do just fine serving their needs. We don't have any problem with delivering in the box when asked. I personally don't recommend it, and caution against it, but always gratiously defer to the customer's wishes. But thanks for pointing that out.

Contrary to your depiction, I have great rapport with my customers and shoppers. I suppose my name and industry affiliation (actually I don't list KC in my signiture, and thanks for mentioning it) should put me at a disadvantage in jousting with those behind an annonymous avatar (by-the-way, let me know any time I can help you with your work in academe). I do not represent Keyboard Concepts on this Forum. To that end, and to avoid the appearance of promotion, I deliberately removed that line from my signature several months ago. I felt it was enough to identify my region and brand affiliations. My observations and comments are my own and come from my experience in the business. I am quite aware of who I am, and what I write.

Regarding your post script, one might assume you were referring to price. In nearly every store I have ever worked in and/or supervised we clearly posted the MSRP (with the exception of S&S) and a discounted price on nearly every instrument. The discounted pricing fell within the commonly discussed suggestions in the Larry Fine publications. Many of the dealers I talk to on a regular basis follow this same practice. Quoting discount prices over the phone or email or the internet is prohibited by most manufacturer/distributor agreements, and in practical application are not productive for retailers.

If your only goal in this post was to attempt to nullify my perspective, and make this a personal exchange, why post in this thread at all?

so do you.

I had two goals in posting here. One was to dispute the importance of your laundry list of what consumers demand. I do not agree with that list. My own feeling is that pricing should be at the top of the list (not absent), and that the items you listed are of lesser importance. As I said before, I read a lot of posts from consumers who are bewildered by piano pricing. I have not read any posts from consumers complaining about stores that do not have acres and acres of pianos in all models and all wood finishes, or about stores that require a drive further than the bottom of the freeway exit ramp. If you have links to such posted complaints, perhaps you could share them here.

The other reason I posted is that I don't think it serves your purposes to pop off in a way that can alienate consumers, music teachers, and other elements of the music community. If you have a problem with teachers demanding kickbacks (as your opening post clearly indicates that you do), I feel you should deal with it in house and not blaze it across this forum. Many people despise these teacher 'arrangements' and will question the integrity of a shop accommodating them almost as much as that of the teachers seeking them. The same is true of ethnic stereotyping. If you have no problem getting on with your Asian customer base, you shouldn't bellyache about "members of certain ethnicities" as you coyly do on this forum.

If you don't get any of this, ignore it.

As to your disassociation from your employer and your house brands, that's for the management here to decide. If you recommend the Yamaha T118, the Yamaha C and GC series, and the William Knabe lines as you routinely do, I think those recommendations should be understood in the context of your representation. However, that's just my opinion.

The lines I represent are clearly shown in my signature. You might want to turn on that function and/or read my sig.

You are absolutely entitled to dispute anything you read on the Forum and frequently do. Your "feeling" about my list and your observations on the posts on this forum are not exactly the real world of the majority of piano retailers. Do you actually believe that I just make this stuff up?

Marty,

My apologies for misunderstanding your tag. I was reading what you wrote about it and didn't even bother to check what was under your post.

Thank you for giving me your permission to disagree with you and present a perspective different from "the real world of the majority of piano retailers" . I will step aside though so that others can respond to your opening post and comment on your list of consumer demands.

Monica K,

You are right. I can be very ornery. It's a good thing I'm not trying to sell anything.

Wow! Did the pants have two legs or one?

I never seriously considered those 100K+ pianos(except looking at pictures), but at less than 7K for a 100K piano...I won't worry about the free in home tuning.

Based on any of his posts in this thread or anywhere, I would have no second thoughts about dealing with Marty Flinn as a consumer.

I find it hard to fathom how anyone with virtually no experience in the piano industry can think they have the answers.

I wrote this reply this afternoon and then had internet connection issues. But I still think it's relevant.

Well you may not be interested in that, but you can bet every authorized dealer is. Given that they can lose their dealer authorization, then whether you're interested doesn't really matter.

As has already been noted in another thread a Costco deal will probably not be as beneficial as you think. As one who has experienced the difference between a serviceable upright and a quality grand I can assure you it's your children who will pay the price of your quest. You say you're interested in a quick easy transaction, but refuse to drive 2 hours to a dealer who may or may not be able to give you the price you want. The actual problem is you don't know what price you want.

So let me give you some answers. The $5300 that's been batted around of late for a K3 strikes me as an unrealistically low price. I asked a friend who was in the business a few years ago and $6K for a K3 was a good price back then. As I recall the $5300 did not include any dealer prep and was in fact for a new "in the box" instrument (though it did include 2 tunings).

The reality is 70% of the time what you don't get in discount you do get in dealer prep. I wish I could say 100% of the time, but I can't, the reality is there are some dealers whose mission in life is to maximize their margin. There are people in your local market who know who the good dealers are, but you apparently don't know them.

What I don't hear from you is making any effort to call upon your local musician community. Who teaches your children lessons? Where do they buy their music? Who else do you know who's a player (church organist or choir director). But wait you said you don't have time to shop and want to make this quick and easy and so probably won't bother with any of that. Meanwhile you carp to an online forum that doesn't even know where you live and thus cannot comment on your local market (believe me someone here knows what's going on there), all while you kids practice on an electronic keyboard.

The bottom line is this, your quest for simple, fast and fair is at odds with your quest to not get ripped off. Pick one.

Amen.

Ken

Even though I've been in the piano market frequently over the years, and have bought several pianos including a couple in the last few years, and have been in and out of showrooms dozens if not hundreds of times, I had no idea there was any amount of "bashing of the traditional piano retail sales business model."

In the future, ideally everything will be maximized for margin. Although it pains me to say this -- virtual all the old "mom and pops" piano stores will give rise to larger, more efficient piano titans -- with names like "Pianos R Us" or "Piano's Club".

It has already happened in many other industries, I believe it is only time for the piano business model to undergo a radical change...

I guess what you're getting with this evolution is
1. a lower price (something everyone wants -- why not use that extra $700 from the Kawai K3 to buy yourself a nice, new jacket, perhaps a new laptop, or maybe a cruise ticket for yourself?)

2. a more consistent quality and service (mammoth department chains will carry pianos of the similar quality, with the same, depersonalized service).

Why all this negativity with this change? It is definitely beneficial for consumers for one -- the extra money saved can be wisely used elsewhere.

I guess the only downside is the depersonalized service you would receive -- much like walking into a Home Depot instead of the hardware store down the street.

Neither would I, and the company he works for, Keyboard Concepts, is first class. I wouldn't have any hesitation buying a piano from his comrade-in-arms Steve Cohen either, despite the fact that Steve doesn't play the piano at all and comes up short in your expertise qualifications.

"Some of the biggest armchair experts seem to think they know all the answers but, at least according to their signatures, have never worked a single day selling pianos no less owned a piano dealership. And I strongly doubt they have ever tuned a piano or can play beyond a mediocre level."

However, you miss my point. Marty's integrity is not in question here, not in any way. The question is whether the personal perspective of one industry member is the only perspective to be considered. I know many piano retail shops that do not follow the KC store model, that do not worry about carpeted floor, a myriad of choices in every finish, and a freeway-close location. Another thing I know is that there are no topics in any field where different perspectives do not add value.

This is a discussion forum. If you personally want to accept the commonly-offered opinion that the present industry model is the only one that can work and has no need to adapt to the times, that is your prerogative. Others may not accept that conclusion. I don't.

I guess you are right, the piano retail business is not set up to deliver a simple, fast and fair purchasing experience for me.

So, to not get ripped off I need to do more research.

Here is what I got (internet search): Yamaha U1 PE: MRSP $11,000. Offered at Costco roadshow in Northern California for $5,525 plus $125 shipping. A search on this forum delivered a couple of more (low end) price points: $5,900 from a dealer in Michigan, $5,200 on a sale event in San Jose, CA, and another price of $5,150 in Ohio. Most prices are 2008, all are for new instruments (incl. delivery and 1 or 2 tune ups), and do not include tax.

Not sure yet how I have to value dealer prep, but I'll figure out tomorrow.

Based on numbers above I will drive to the piano shop (recommended by the piano teacher), play a few instruments. If the U1 is the one we want I will offer $5,000 (complete instrument, delivery, 2 tune ups). If after negotiating the retailer is not able to come through at slightly below $5,500 I will drive home and do more research.

After all I am aware that prices posted on the internet might not be accurate, and I am definitely going into the negotiation with what I believe is a low ball offer.



I really appreciate your effort providing a price point for the K3. Thank you for that. Again, we need to play the instruments first. But in case I could get a U1 for $5,500 I most likely would look for a lower price than $5,300 for the K3.

I think I am now at a pretty sad state of the purchasing experience. I am only talking about price trying hard not to get ripped off. Not sure if I will be happy with any deal, not sure that the retailer will be happy.