I love my ES4, but everytime I get to play my teachers Yamaha acoustic I hear/feel what I'm missing.

I don't want a four hundred pound thing in my living room, or the maintenance hassles. But acoustic pianos feel and sound different, and I like the difference. I spent many years playing classical guitar and really like an 'acoustic' sound.

I wish there was some breakthru tech on the way that would make me happy with a DP, but I just have my doubts about that....

Anyone else try to settle down with a DP and not been able to make it work?

I've been tickled pink with my Yamaha Avant Grand N3. It has soul. It feels, plays and sounds like a grand piano without the hassles.

http://ny1.com/1-all-boroughs-news-conte...the-real-thing/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrr5-0aF5KM

Worth every penny.

Snazzy

Snazzy, may I ask if you were you able to play-test the N2?

I agree that the N3 is undoubtedly an incredibly instrument, however given that LS35A is considering an acoustic upright, it may be a little too large. Perhaps the N2 would be a suitable compromise?

Cheers,
James
x

James, I tried the N2 only briefly, as my attention was grabbed by the visually arresting N3...I was hooked.

This is rather interesting.

http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/Cont...amp;CTID=560001

Snazzy

BTW, I sold my Tyros3 and bought a PSR-S910 arranger, and I've ordered a CVP-509. I was interested in the Roland RM-700, but I've decided to stay with Yamaha.

The N2 is a beautiful looking instrument. I'd love to play one, but doubt I'll have the opportunity. Aren't they around ten grand? I think you can get a nice Kawai, Yamaha, Essex, upright for between five and six, so that's a consideration. Four grand buys a lot of tuning!

I don't think anyone in Phoenix has the V-Piano or the N2, but I could be wrong about that.

Congrats, you've hit the DP wall of crap - join the vast, vast club. Either buy a real piano, or some good PC modeling / sampling software, or settle in for a long, frustrating wait for the DP manufacturers to build something real (warning: there is no end in sight). No technical reason why they can't, they just won't. My personal theory is there are a half-dozen or so key old-school engineers in Japan & Korea that we are all waiting on to retire / die. The sooner the better IMO, if someone can identify them I'll make it my life's goal to dance (and perhaps worse) on each and every one of their wretched graves. Do I sound bitter?

Anyway, do you have a set of good headphones? Speakers are notoriously bad at sound reproduction, and 99% of those built-in to DPs are an abomination in my ears. I recommend AKG K-271 (sealed) or AKG K-240 (semi-open). They won't get you around the scandalously obvious compression artifacting in what passes for even a very good DP sample set these days, but they can vastly improve the listening experience.

Up until about 6 months ago I had been playing a digital piano exclusively for the last 7 years. My previous acoustic was a Baldwin R. I new it was probably a mistake to sell it but I felt I had not choice at the time. I missed having an acoustic for so long that I finally broke down and purchased a Kawai K-3. It's a nice piano but it's no Baldwin R.

I miss my Baldwin more than ever. If it weren't for the fact that my son is learning piano, the Kawai may not get played that much. I had gotten so used to hearing a perfectly in tune (digital) piano that it's tough for me to sit down at the Kawai. Even after 2 free in-home tunings it's not sounding the way I want it to. I think the tuner's ears are just wired to his brain differently than mine are so I haven't given up hope that I'll find a new tech that hears the way I do. I had owned 4 different acoustic pianos before this one but, except for one other, this one hasn't grown on me yet.

The point is that, as much as I love the sound of a real acoustic piano, I've gotten spoiled with the ease at which I can sit down and hear a consistently great sounding piano, albeit, a digital reproduction.

I know no one wants to start another acoustic vs. digital thread and I'm not saying that one is better than the other. I will always want both. I will say that if you are missing the sound of an acoustic piano, make sure you spend as much time as it takes to find the one you'll be happy with.

I can tolerate bitterness, but now you're being needlessly offensive.

Eric, you are undoubtedly an intelligent chap, and someone who can contribute a great deal of useful technical knowledge to this forum. However, your rude, often arrogant tone is not appreciated.

You may not care for their engineering work, however the individuals that you describe are colleagues of mine, and husbands and fathers to many others.

Therefore, in future, may I politely ask you to consider the content of your posts more carefully before clicking the 'Submit' button.

Kind regards,
James
x

There is nothing more disheartening than listening to your acoustic piano go out of tune.

The Avant Grand N3 is still perhaps a tiny compromise, of sorts, but it sure doesn't feel like one, nor does it play like one.

As I said in another thread. it touches my soul. No other instrument I own or have ever played, does that as successfully, except my Hammond B-3.

I will never buy an acoustic again, now that the digital piano has literally come to life. Never again will I have to listen to a single key playing a three note dissonant chord as the poor thing drifts out of tune for the umpteenth time.

The acoustic piano is now headed for the same fate as the triceratops and brontosaurus as far as I'm concerned. I know I won't miss it.

Snazzy

That's got to be the funniest thing I have ever read on this forum.

I haven't laughed so hard since my mother-in-law fell down the basement stairs.

I love this place!

Snazzy

James, you've been nothing but tolerant of my ranting, even when it is directed at you, and I thank you for that, you are a true gentleman. If you have read anything racist into my rantings, I can assure you that is not the case (as least as I am aware). And I'm sure the engineers you work with are fine family people who are fun to be around.

Anyway, here is my question to you: What is the reason why we don't have a recording quality DP right now at a reasonable price - what gives? Could you ask the guys you work with? I'm really not trying to be a big meanie, and I'm seriously very interested in any response you can give. Do they need suggestions as to designing new product that will accomplish this? I'm incredibly unhappy with the current offerings from all major DP manufacturers, they are so far from state-of-the-art that it's criminal.

If you don't like the products being offered, then don't buy. Or, build a better one yourself. Or, just buy something else.

No one here can design or build or produce a piano of any sort, never mind a DP that would satisfy you. If you want the market to move in a different direction, talk to the manufacturers.

But the ranting is getting old. Give it a rest.

Mmmmm...so this has gone on before. I'm relatively new here, and I really thought this guy couldn't actually be serious.

I thought it was some kind of tongue-in-cheek joke.

Very unusual behavior.

Snazzy

Excuse me, but that's I'm doing! I'm talking to KAWAI James! Did you miss the KAWAI preceeding the James?

I'm pleading with a representative from the DP industry to build what I want, what could possibly be clearer?? Lord...

LS35A, I too get tempted periodically, even though I'm
sold on digitals and think they are the best thing that
has ever happened in the piano world. Digitals have
literally been my salvation as a pianist, and I owe
everything worthwhile that I've achieved in piano to them.

Those tempting moments do not last long. I don't
want something that weighs a ton in my apt., that I
have to tune and fix constantly, and that will have
the neighbors at my throat--they can't even stand my
digital, even though I play it with the volume turned way
down.

I have had an expensive acoustic upright in storage for
many yrs.; a similar model today would be in the ~$20,000
price range. But it stays in storage because my $600
economy digital serves better for practical everyday playing.
I can play anything on it, from jazz to concertos.

This argument that one needs an acoustic piano to
progress is invalid in my view. Note that silent keyboards
were introduced in the late 19th century. A silent keyboard
is like a digital with the power turned off. They allowed
a pianist to play anytime and anywhere without disturbing
people, enabling a concert pianist to develop better technique,
and save his ears and nerves at the same time. So the basic
idea behind digitals is not new at all. Silent keyboards used
to be very popular with concert pianists in the 1930's.
Claudio Arrau used on all his life.

Forget about acoustic pianos. You've already got the best
equipment available to a pianist today in your digital.

Hey Gyro,

What is your acoustic? You've mentioned all your digitals many times, but never what is the elusive $20,000 acoustic lurking in storage.

And, why don't you sell it?

I didn't miss a thing. KJ works for Kawai, but I don't think he's in a position to make marketing decisions for them.

But even if he were, you could discuss this without all the invective. KJ found you to be "needlessly offensive". Likewise.

Good for you! I'm also looking at acoustics (a grand in my case) though mine is a few years off. I never understood why people have to like digitals *or* acoustics!

For me, the dream situation is a good digital for 50-60% of the time, after hours and the horrible-sounding grunt work when starting a new piece, and the acoustic for finishing, voicing and the simple joy of playing.

I also agree that the digital piano industry must be in the second-last place regarding innovation (last place being the acoustic piano industry )

MacMacMac, in actual fact I do work within the marketing section, however our responsibilities primarily involve developing owner's manuals, brochures, and other materials. The kind of decisions that dewster wishes to pursue are typically made by the product development team, who work in another building.

Kind regards,
James
x

Boxijie, this is one of the
expensive brands. It is a
studio upright, the high-backed
kind that you'd see in a
teacher's studio. I bought
it in the early 1980's for
around $6000 US, which was
very expensive at the time;
the same model today would be
in the ~$20,000 price range.
This was the first piano I
bought as an adult restarter.
It was very good, with a superb
sound, but it didn't help my
playing any, as I had hoped, and
I became very disillusioned with
it and put it into storage, where
it has remained till this day.
I don't want to mention the
brand because it is a proud name,
and people might be offended
by how I've treated it.

I don't sell if for a number
of reasons. First, I do feel
a certain amount of pride in
being the owner of a "$20,000"
piano. There remains the possibility
that I might take it our of
storage some day. The owner
of the house where I'm storing
it is not on good terms with
me and would make things difficult
if I tried to remove it. The
last time I checked on it,
about a yr. ago, I was shocked
at the insect damage that it
had sustained, which might
not be easily repairable.
I should treat it for the
insects, but the owner of
the house won't let me do it.
Fumigating companies won't
guarantee their work, and so
I'd have to move it to my
apt. and treat it there, which
is just not practical in my
small apt. It has significant
symbolic value to me where
it rests now. It is there
to remind me that you can't
improve your playing by buying
an expensive piano, and if
I can't play something on
my economy digital, then I
won't be able to play it
on anything else either.

Hmmm...

paid 6,000
if purchased today 20,000

eaten by termites...well that wouldn't happen with the economy digital.

See the digital benefits?...just endless.

KAWAI James, you are johnny-on-the-spot when someone has a minor issue with a KAWAI foot pedal or whatever, offering to help them with quality issues or feedback to the factory and such. Which is great, I'm sure people here really appreciate the direct company contact and all.

But what about critical sound quality issues with KAWAI DPs? Sample looping and stretching are not necessary any more, so why does KAWAI continue to use these outdated compression methods, even on your top-of-the-line models? Doesn't it bother KAWAI that customers spend lots of money on your products, but then have to turn to third party software running on a PC when they want an acceptable sound, relegating their DP to mere controller status?

I've replied to you many times. But you haven't addressed this issue once, even though I've directly and repeatedly asked you about it. The only way I can get a response out of you is by being uncivil. I promise to be more civil if you to stop rudely ignoring this issue.

Could you please talk to the engineers about this and get back to me? Toss me a bone here, man.

He did respond, you even quoted his response. Those decisions are made elsewhere. The manufacturers are improving their DP's, Roland is experimenting with modeling, Yamaha is including full acoustic actions. Each manufacturer has their own reasons for the directions they chose, some (directions) are driven by technology, some economics. Having to be "uncivil" to elicit a response is a thin excuse at best. Hoping that people die and dancing (or worse) on their graves simply because you don't like the product they produce (when you have plenty of other options to choose) is childish in the extreme.

If I may - I would like to get back to the original question "Anyone else try to settle down with a DP and not been able to make it work?"

I have tried but failed.

I used to love my Yamaha P120 - but I was missing something, or a combination and I was not that comfortable when playing on an acoustic.
Then I had the opportunity to acquire a (used) Yamaha acoustic Grand (C3) at a very attractive price. And I happened to have the room for it.
Of course, it is not like an electronic device. It had to be tuned, regulated about 4 weeks after it came in the house.
And then it needed to acclimate to its new location (my house). This specific process takes about 2 years. But in the mean time it very usable.
In a matter of weeks after the acoustic was tuned and regulated, I could not really stand my P120 lack of dynamics anymore. I was hooked to the acoustic bad.
I have sold my Yamaha P120 on Craigslist, and I have purchased a Casio PX-320 for practice when the family sleeps, or when we travel. The Casio is lightweight and fairly expressive, at least compared to the P120, and the action is good enough to me.
That current setting fits all my needs and wishes perfectly.

It's worth noting this is a thread started by a Kawai DP owner who has come to be dissatisfied with his instrument.

Yes he has responded to my incivility, but he hasn't responded to my sample compression questions even once. I didn't bring up the subject of civility, but to me that is being rude.


Yes, but someone on the forum from frikin' KAWAI should be able to at least discuss it, the engineers are a stone's throw from his desk. Yet KAWAI Jim clams up when I ask him about these things. I suspect he doesn't have any real authority (not his fault, who does in a modern corporation?) and is afraid he might reveal some proprietary information and catch hell for it. Nothing wrong with that and I can fully understand that scenario, but he could do the honorable thing and at least say that that is the case rather than just leave me hanging.


I was being metaphorical with the death thing. I'm sure those guys are great to have a beer with and all, and I personally wish them no ill-will, but I will rejoice when the influence they exert over current products comes to an end.

Would you call Rosa Parks uncivil? I would. Incivility is not necessarily childish.

Thank you.

The fella I buy some of my vintage synths from is a Yamaha clinician way up there in Canada. He tells me that he had to sign an NDA, which stands for Non Disclosure Agreement.

No doubt Kawai James is held by the same or similar agreement.

If you don't like the product, write the company yourself.

I don't think James comes here to promote his product or to be taking guff from someone that's not happy with digitals as they are..I think he's just like the rest of us and has a passion for, and an interest in, digital pianos in general.

Snazzy

dewster, a detailed reply would be OT, but suffice it to say that your "uncivil" behaviour has gotten you no further than any claimed civil behaviour. Also, evoking images of Rosa Parks to somehow justify your behaviour is beyond "missing the point" and doesn't do much for supporting your cause.

To the OP, the cool thing about this forum is that you will find folks that fall into both camps. Those like you that took the DP plunge, didn't like it, and jumped back into the "other" pool. At the same time, there are plenty of folks here who jumped in and actually prefer it to the other pool (gyro perhaps being one of the most famous). So the fact that one falls into one camp or the other (or the third that goes either way) isn't too surprising. The reasons of course are varied and range from eminently practical to frustratingly ethereal.

Perhaps what I find most interesting is to observe the specific instruments involved and the characteristics of the folks themselves. Like the OP not being satisfied with their ES4. Would another DP work better for them perhaps? Are all DP's being painted with the same brush based on a relatively small sampling (sometimes just 1)? It's also evident that different folks have different tolerance levels for different short comings. For instance, I often hear about the headache of maintaining an acoustic. We get our acoustic tuned twice a year, hardly what I'd consider a headache and actually an event that we rather enjoy. However I can see how even two tunings (and the associated cost and time spent while out of tune) would be unacceptable to some.

Bit,

If it ain't one thing, it's another.

Just a few observations.

The OP states that he loves his ES4, but that he doubts he can ever be happy with a DP. That's a contradiction. I can't see any reason to respond to it.

To say that what's available is "so far from state-of-the-art that it's criminal" means that someone is hiding something somewhere that could earn him money, fame, or both.

Pyrotechnic displays on this forum are quite colorful, but fortunately burn out quickly.