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#1326138 - 12/15/09 06:53 PM I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights
LS35A Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/31/09
Posts: 139
Loc: Hayden, ID
I love my ES4, but everytime I get to play my teachers Yamaha acoustic I hear/feel what I'm missing.

I don't want a four hundred pound thing in my living room, or the maintenance hassles. But acoustic pianos feel and sound different, and I like the difference. I spent many years playing classical guitar and really like an 'acoustic' sound.

I wish there was some breakthru tech on the way that would make me happy with a DP, but I just have my doubts about that....

Anyone else try to settle down with a DP and not been able to make it work?

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#1326143 - 12/15/09 07:01 PM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: LS35A]
snazzyplayer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/26/09
Posts: 983
Loc: Earth
I've been tickled pink with my Yamaha Avant Grand N3. It has soul. It feels, plays and sounds like a grand piano without the hassles.

http://ny1.com/1-all-boroughs-news-conte...the-real-thing/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrr5-0aF5KM

Worth every penny.

Snazzy
_________________________
Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)

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#1326151 - 12/15/09 07:16 PM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: snazzyplayer]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9558
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Snazzy, may I ask if you were you able to play-test the N2?

I agree that the N3 is undoubtedly an incredibly instrument, however given that LS35A is considering an acoustic upright, it may be a little too large. Perhaps the N2 would be a suitable compromise?

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1326154 - 12/15/09 07:21 PM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: Kawai James]
snazzyplayer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/26/09
Posts: 983
Loc: Earth
James, I tried the N2 only briefly, as my attention was grabbed by the visually arresting N3...I was hooked.

This is rather interesting.

http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/Cont...amp;CTID=560001

Snazzy

BTW, I sold my Tyros3 and bought a PSR-S910 arranger, and I've ordered a CVP-509. I was interested in the Roland RM-700, but I've decided to stay with Yamaha.
_________________________
Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)

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#1326157 - 12/15/09 07:27 PM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: snazzyplayer]
LS35A Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/31/09
Posts: 139
Loc: Hayden, ID
The N2 is a beautiful looking instrument. I'd love to play one, but doubt I'll have the opportunity. Aren't they around ten grand? I think you can get a nice Kawai, Yamaha, Essex, upright for between five and six, so that's a consideration. Four grand buys a lot of tuning!

I don't think anyone in Phoenix has the V-Piano or the N2, but I could be wrong about that.

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#1326160 - 12/15/09 07:29 PM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: LS35A]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: LS35A
I love my ES4, but everytime I get to play my teachers Yamaha acoustic I hear/feel what I'm missing.

I don't want a four hundred pound thing in my living room, or the maintenance hassles. But acoustic pianos feel and sound different, and I like the difference. I spent many years playing classical guitar and really like an 'acoustic' sound.

I wish there was some breakthru tech on the way that would make me happy with a DP, but I just have my doubts about that....

Anyone else try to settle down with a DP and not been able to make it work?


Congrats, you've hit the DP wall of crap - join the vast, vast club. Either buy a real piano, or some good PC modeling / sampling software, or settle in for a long, frustrating wait for the DP manufacturers to build something real (warning: there is no end in sight). No technical reason why they can't, they just won't. My personal theory is there are a half-dozen or so key old-school engineers in Japan & Korea that we are all waiting on to retire / die. The sooner the better IMO, if someone can identify them I'll make it my life's goal to dance (and perhaps worse) on each and every one of their wretched graves. Do I sound bitter?

Anyway, do you have a set of good headphones? Speakers are notoriously bad at sound reproduction, and 99% of those built-in to DPs are an abomination in my ears. I recommend AKG K-271 (sealed) or AKG K-240 (semi-open). They won't get you around the scandalously obvious compression artifacting in what passes for even a very good DP sample set these days, but they can vastly improve the listening experience.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1326161 - 12/15/09 07:30 PM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: snazzyplayer]
setchman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 166
Up until about 6 months ago I had been playing a digital piano exclusively for the last 7 years. My previous acoustic was a Baldwin R. I new it was probably a mistake to sell it but I felt I had not choice at the time. I missed having an acoustic for so long that I finally broke down and purchased a Kawai K-3. It's a nice piano but it's no Baldwin R.

I miss my Baldwin more than ever. If it weren't for the fact that my son is learning piano, the Kawai may not get played that much. I had gotten so used to hearing a perfectly in tune (digital) piano that it's tough for me to sit down at the Kawai. Even after 2 free in-home tunings it's not sounding the way I want it to. I think the tuner's ears are just wired to his brain differently than mine are so I haven't given up hope that I'll find a new tech that hears the way I do. I had owned 4 different acoustic pianos before this one but, except for one other, this one hasn't grown on me yet.

The point is that, as much as I love the sound of a real acoustic piano, I've gotten spoiled with the ease at which I can sit down and hear a consistently great sounding piano, albeit, a digital reproduction.

I know no one wants to start another acoustic vs. digital thread and I'm not saying that one is better than the other. I will always want both. I will say that if you are missing the sound of an acoustic piano, make sure you spend as much time as it takes to find the one you'll be happy with.
_________________________
Kawai K-3
Yamha Motif XS8
BlackGrand.com

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#1326171 - 12/15/09 07:49 PM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: setchman]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9558
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: dewster
The sooner the better IMO, if someone can identify them I'll make it my life's goal to dance (and perhaps worse) on each and every one of their wretched graves. Do I sound bitter?


I can tolerate bitterness, but now you're being needlessly offensive.

Eric, you are undoubtedly an intelligent chap, and someone who can contribute a great deal of useful technical knowledge to this forum. However, your rude, often arrogant tone is not appreciated.

You may not care for their engineering work, however the individuals that you describe are colleagues of mine, and husbands and fathers to many others.

Therefore, in future, may I politely ask you to consider the content of your posts more carefully before clicking the 'Submit' button.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

Top
#1326173 - 12/15/09 07:56 PM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: setchman]
snazzyplayer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/26/09
Posts: 983
Loc: Earth
There is nothing more disheartening than listening to your acoustic piano go out of tune. cry

The Avant Grand N3 is still perhaps a tiny compromise, of sorts, but it sure doesn't feel like one, nor does it play like one.

As I said in another thread. it touches my soul. No other instrument I own or have ever played, does that as successfully, except my Hammond B-3.

I will never buy an acoustic again, now that the digital piano has literally come to life. Never again will I have to listen to a single key playing a three note dissonant chord as the poor thing drifts out of tune for the umpteenth time.

The acoustic piano is now headed for the same fate as the triceratops and brontosaurus as far as I'm concerned. I know I won't miss it.

Snazzy
_________________________
Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)

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#1326186 - 12/15/09 08:26 PM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: dewster]
snazzyplayer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/26/09
Posts: 983
Loc: Earth
Originally Posted By: dewster


My personal theory is there are a half-dozen or so key old-school engineers in Japan & Korea that we are all waiting on to retire / die. The sooner the better IMO, if someone can identify them I'll make it my life's goal to dance (and perhaps worse) on each and every one of their wretched graves. Do I sound bitter?



That's got to be the funniest thing I have ever read on this forum. laugh

I haven't laughed so hard since my mother-in-law fell down the basement stairs.

I love this place! thumb

Snazzy
_________________________
Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)

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#1326201 - 12/15/09 08:53 PM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: Kawai James]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: KAWAI James
Originally Posted By: dewster
The sooner the better IMO, if someone can identify them I'll make it my life's goal to dance (and perhaps worse) on each and every one of their wretched graves. Do I sound bitter?


I can tolerate bitterness, but now you're being needlessly offensive.

Eric, you are undoubtedly an intelligent chap, and someone who can contribute a great deal of useful technical knowledge to this forum. However, your rude, often arrogant tone is not appreciated.

You may not care for their engineering work, however the individuals that you describe are colleagues of mine, and husbands and fathers to many others.

Therefore, in future, may I politely ask you to consider the content of your posts more carefully before clicking the 'Submit' button.

Kind regards,
James
x


James, you've been nothing but tolerant of my ranting, even when it is directed at you, and I thank you for that, you are a true gentleman. If you have read anything racist into my rantings, I can assure you that is not the case (as least as I am aware). And I'm sure the engineers you work with are fine family people who are fun to be around.

Anyway, here is my question to you: What is the reason why we don't have a recording quality DP right now at a reasonable price - what gives? Could you ask the guys you work with? I'm really not trying to be a big meanie, and I'm seriously very interested in any response you can give. Do they need suggestions as to designing new product that will accomplish this? I'm incredibly unhappy with the current offerings from all major DP manufacturers, they are so far from state-of-the-art that it's criminal.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1326206 - 12/15/09 09:04 PM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: dewster]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3866
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: dewster
Anyway, here is my question to you: What is the reason why we don't have a recording quality DP right now at a reasonable price - what gives? Could you ask the guys you work with? I'm really not trying to be a big meanie, and I'm seriously very interested in any response you can give. Do they need suggestions as to designing new product that will accomplish this? I'm incredibly unhappy with the current offerings from all major DP manufacturers, they are so far from state-of-the-art that it's criminal.
If you don't like the products being offered, then don't buy. Or, build a better one yourself. Or, just buy something else.

No one here can design or build or produce a piano of any sort, never mind a DP that would satisfy you. If you want the market to move in a different direction, talk to the manufacturers.

But the ranting is getting old. Give it a rest.

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#1326210 - 12/15/09 09:15 PM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: MacMacMac]
snazzyplayer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/26/09
Posts: 983
Loc: Earth
Originally Posted By: MacMacMac

But the ranting is getting old. Give it a rest.


Mmmmm...so this has gone on before. I'm relatively new here, and I really thought this guy couldn't actually be serious.

I thought it was some kind of tongue-in-cheek joke.

Very unusual behavior.

Snazzy
_________________________
Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)

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#1326317 - 12/16/09 12:09 AM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: MacMacMac]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
No one here can design or build or produce a piano of any sort, never mind a DP that would satisfy you. If you want the market to move in a different direction, talk to the manufacturers.


Excuse me, but that's I'm doing! I'm talking to KAWAI James! Did you miss the KAWAI preceeding the James?

I'm pleading with a representative from the DP industry to build what I want, what could possibly be clearer?? Lord...
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1326332 - 12/16/09 12:29 AM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: snazzyplayer]
Gyro Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 4533
LS35A, I too get tempted periodically, even though I'm
sold on digitals and think they are the best thing that
has ever happened in the piano world. Digitals have
literally been my salvation as a pianist, and I owe
everything worthwhile that I've achieved in piano to them.

Those tempting moments do not last long. I don't
want something that weighs a ton in my apt., that I
have to tune and fix constantly, and that will have
the neighbors at my throat--they can't even stand my
digital, even though I play it with the volume turned way
down.

I have had an expensive acoustic upright in storage for
many yrs.; a similar model today would be in the ~$20,000
price range. But it stays in storage because my $600
economy digital serves better for practical everyday playing.
I can play anything on it, from jazz to concertos.

This argument that one needs an acoustic piano to
progress is invalid in my view. Note that silent keyboards
were introduced in the late 19th century. A silent keyboard
is like a digital with the power turned off. They allowed
a pianist to play anytime and anywhere without disturbing
people, enabling a concert pianist to develop better technique,
and save his ears and nerves at the same time. So the basic
idea behind digitals is not new at all. Silent keyboards used
to be very popular with concert pianists in the 1930's.
Claudio Arrau used on all his life.

Forget about acoustic pianos. You've already got the best
equipment available to a pianist today in your digital.

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#1326381 - 12/16/09 01:56 AM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: Gyro]
boxijie Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/20/08
Posts: 126
Loc: Vancouver
Hey Gyro,

What is your acoustic? You've mentioned all your digitals many times, but never what is the elusive $20,000 acoustic lurking in storage.

And, why don't you sell it?

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#1326415 - 12/16/09 04:34 AM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: dewster]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3866
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
No one here can design or build or produce a piano of any sort, never mind a DP that would satisfy you. If you want the market to move in a different direction, talk to the manufacturers.


Excuse me, but that's I'm doing! I'm talking to KAWAI James! Did you miss the KAWAI preceeding the James?
I didn't miss a thing. KJ works for Kawai, but I don't think he's in a position to make marketing decisions for them.

But even if he were, you could discuss this without all the invective. KJ found you to be "needlessly offensive". Likewise.

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#1326422 - 12/16/09 05:11 AM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: MacMacMac]
Bunneh Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/08/08
Posts: 399
Loc: Berlin
Good for you! I'm also looking at acoustics (a grand in my case) though mine is a few years off. I never understood why people have to like digitals *or* acoustics!

For me, the dream situation is a good digital for 50-60% of the time, after hours and the horrible-sounding grunt work when starting a new piece, and the acoustic for finishing, voicing and the simple joy of playing.

I also agree that the digital piano industry must be in the second-last place regarding innovation (last place being the acoustic piano industry wink )


Edited by Bunneh (12/16/09 05:13 AM)
_________________________
aim for the moon - if you miss, at least you'll be among the stars.

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#1326457 - 12/16/09 08:31 AM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: Bunneh]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9558
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
MacMacMac, in actual fact I do work within the marketing section, however our responsibilities primarily involve developing owner's manuals, brochures, and other materials. The kind of decisions that dewster wishes to pursue are typically made by the product development team, who work in another building.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

Top
#1326568 - 12/16/09 11:28 AM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: Kawai James]
Gyro Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 4533
Boxijie, this is one of the
expensive brands. It is a
studio upright, the high-backed
kind that you'd see in a
teacher's studio. I bought
it in the early 1980's for
around $6000 US, which was
very expensive at the time;
the same model today would be
in the ~$20,000 price range.
This was the first piano I
bought as an adult restarter.
It was very good, with a superb
sound, but it didn't help my
playing any, as I had hoped, and
I became very disillusioned with
it and put it into storage, where
it has remained till this day.
I don't want to mention the
brand because it is a proud name,
and people might be offended
by how I've treated it.

I don't sell if for a number
of reasons. First, I do feel
a certain amount of pride in
being the owner of a "$20,000"
piano. There remains the possibility
that I might take it our of
storage some day. The owner
of the house where I'm storing
it is not on good terms with
me and would make things difficult
if I tried to remove it. The
last time I checked on it,
about a yr. ago, I was shocked
at the insect damage that it
had sustained, which might
not be easily repairable.
I should treat it for the
insects, but the owner of
the house won't let me do it.
Fumigating companies won't
guarantee their work, and so
I'd have to move it to my
apt. and treat it there, which
is just not practical in my
small apt. It has significant
symbolic value to me where
it rests now. It is there
to remind me that you can't
improve your playing by buying
an expensive piano, and if
I can't play something on
my economy digital, then I
won't be able to play it
on anything else either.

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#1326611 - 12/16/09 12:31 PM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: Gyro]
I'll be Bach Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/11/09
Posts: 122
Loc: North Carolina
Hmmm...

paid 6,000
if purchased today 20,000

eaten by termites...well that wouldn't happen with the economy digital.

See the digital benefits?...just endless.
_________________________

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#1326629 - 12/16/09 12:59 PM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: Kawai James]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: KAWAI James
MacMacMac, in actual fact I do work within the marketing section, however our responsibilities primarily involve developing owner's manuals, brochures, and other materials. The kind of decisions that dewster wishes to pursue are typically made by the product development team, who work in another building.

Kind regards,
James
x


KAWAI James, you are johnny-on-the-spot when someone has a minor issue with a KAWAI foot pedal or whatever, offering to help them with quality issues or feedback to the factory and such. Which is great, I'm sure people here really appreciate the direct company contact and all.

But what about critical sound quality issues with KAWAI DPs? Sample looping and stretching are not necessary any more, so why does KAWAI continue to use these outdated compression methods, even on your top-of-the-line models? Doesn't it bother KAWAI that customers spend lots of money on your products, but then have to turn to third party software running on a PC when they want an acceptable sound, relegating their DP to mere controller status?

I've replied to you many times. But you haven't addressed this issue once, even though I've directly and repeatedly asked you about it. The only way I can get a response out of you is by being uncivil. I promise to be more civil if you to stop rudely ignoring this issue.

Could you please talk to the engineers about this and get back to me? Toss me a bone here, man.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1326660 - 12/16/09 01:38 PM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: dewster]
bitWrangler Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1789
Loc: Central TX
Originally Posted By: dewster
I've replied to you many times. But you haven't addressed this issue once, even though I've directly and repeatedly asked you about it. The only way I can get a response out of you is by being uncivil. I promise to be more civil if you to stop rudely ignoring this issue.


He did respond, you even quoted his response. Those decisions are made elsewhere. The manufacturers are improving their DP's, Roland is experimenting with modeling, Yamaha is including full acoustic actions. Each manufacturer has their own reasons for the directions they chose, some (directions) are driven by technology, some economics. Having to be "uncivil" to elicit a response is a thin excuse at best. Hoping that people die and dancing (or worse) on their graves simply because you don't like the product they produce (when you have plenty of other options to choose) is childish in the extreme.

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#1326702 - 12/16/09 02:27 PM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: bitWrangler]
Vincent L. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/31/07
Posts: 349
Loc: Austin, TX
If I may - I would like to get back to the original question "Anyone else try to settle down with a DP and not been able to make it work?"

I have tried but failed.

I used to love my Yamaha P120 - but I was missing something, or a combination and I was not that comfortable when playing on an acoustic.
Then I had the opportunity to acquire a (used) Yamaha acoustic Grand (C3) at a very attractive price. And I happened to have the room for it.
Of course, it is not like an electronic device. It had to be tuned, regulated about 4 weeks after it came in the house.
And then it needed to acclimate to its new location (my house). This specific process takes about 2 years. But in the mean time it very usable.
In a matter of weeks after the acoustic was tuned and regulated, I could not really stand my P120 lack of dynamics anymore. I was hooked to the acoustic bad.
I have sold my Yamaha P120 on Craigslist, and I have purchased a Casio PX-320 for practice when the family sleeps, or when we travel. The Casio is lightweight and fairly expressive, at least compared to the P120, and the action is good enough to me.
That current setting fits all my needs and wishes perfectly.

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#1326739 - 12/16/09 03:13 PM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: dewster]
LS35A Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/31/09
Posts: 139
Loc: Hayden, ID
Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: KAWAI James
MacMacMac, in actual fact I do work within the marketing section, however our responsibilities primarily involve developing owner's manuals, brochures, and other materials. The kind of decisions that dewster wishes to pursue are typically made by the product development team, who work in another building.

Kind regards,
James
x


But what about critical sound quality issues with KAWAI DPs? Sample looping and stretching are not necessary any more, so why does KAWAI continue to use these outdated compression methods, even on your top-of-the-line models? Doesn't it bother KAWAI that customers spend lots of money on your products, but then have to turn to third party software running on a PC when they want an acceptable sound, relegating their DP to mere controller status?



It's worth noting this is a thread started by a Kawai DP owner who has come to be dissatisfied with his instrument.

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#1326747 - 12/16/09 03:22 PM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: bitWrangler]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: bitWrangler
He did respond, you even quoted his response.

Yes he has responded to my incivility, but he hasn't responded to my sample compression questions even once. I didn't bring up the subject of civility, but to me that is being rude.

Originally Posted By: bitWrangler
Those decisions are made elsewhere.

Yes, but someone on the forum from frikin' KAWAI should be able to at least discuss it, the engineers are a stone's throw from his desk. Yet KAWAI Jim clams up when I ask him about these things. I suspect he doesn't have any real authority (not his fault, who does in a modern corporation?) and is afraid he might reveal some proprietary information and catch hell for it. Nothing wrong with that and I can fully understand that scenario, but he could do the honorable thing and at least say that that is the case rather than just leave me hanging.

Originally Posted By: bitWrangler
Having to be "uncivil" to elicit a response is a thin excuse at best. Hoping that people die and dancing (or worse) on their graves simply because you don't like the product they produce (when you have plenty of other options to choose) is childish in the extreme.

I was being metaphorical with the death thing. I'm sure those guys are great to have a beer with and all, and I personally wish them no ill-will, but I will rejoice when the influence they exert over current products comes to an end.

Would you call Rosa Parks uncivil? I would. Incivility is not necessarily childish.
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#1326769 - 12/16/09 03:40 PM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: LS35A]
dewster Offline
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Originally Posted By: LS35A
It's worth noting this is a thread started by a Kawai DP owner who has come to be dissatisfied with his instrument.


Thank you.
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#1326775 - 12/16/09 03:47 PM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: dewster]
snazzyplayer Offline
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The fella I buy some of my vintage synths from is a Yamaha clinician way up there in Canada. He tells me that he had to sign an NDA, which stands for Non Disclosure Agreement.

No doubt Kawai James is held by the same or similar agreement.

If you don't like the product, write the company yourself.

I don't think James comes here to promote his product or to be taking guff from someone that's not happy with digitals as they are..I think he's just like the rest of us and has a passion for, and an interest in, digital pianos in general.

Snazzy
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#1326785 - 12/16/09 03:55 PM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: dewster]
bitWrangler Offline
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dewster, a detailed reply would be OT, but suffice it to say that your "uncivil" behaviour has gotten you no further than any claimed civil behaviour. Also, evoking images of Rosa Parks to somehow justify your behaviour is beyond "missing the point" and doesn't do much for supporting your cause.

To the OP, the cool thing about this forum is that you will find folks that fall into both camps. Those like you that took the DP plunge, didn't like it, and jumped back into the "other" pool. At the same time, there are plenty of folks here who jumped in and actually prefer it to the other pool (gyro perhaps being one of the most famous). So the fact that one falls into one camp or the other (or the third that goes either way) isn't too surprising. The reasons of course are varied and range from eminently practical to frustratingly ethereal.

Perhaps what I find most interesting is to observe the specific instruments involved and the characteristics of the folks themselves. Like the OP not being satisfied with their ES4. Would another DP work better for them perhaps? Are all DP's being painted with the same brush based on a relatively small sampling (sometimes just 1)? It's also evident that different folks have different tolerance levels for different short comings. For instance, I often hear about the headache of maintaining an acoustic. We get our acoustic tuned twice a year, hardly what I'd consider a headache and actually an event that we rather enjoy. However I can see how even two tunings (and the associated cost and time spent while out of tune) would be unacceptable to some.

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#1326812 - 12/16/09 04:28 PM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: bitWrangler]
turandot Offline
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Bit,

If it ain't one thing, it's another.

Just a few observations.

The OP states that he loves his ES4, but that he doubts he can ever be happy with a DP. That's a contradiction. I can't see any reason to respond to it.

To say that what's available is "so far from state-of-the-art that it's criminal" means that someone is hiding something somewhere that could earn him money, fame, or both.

Pyrotechnic displays on this forum are quite colorful, but fortunately burn out quickly.
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#1326836 - 12/16/09 05:01 PM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: snazzyplayer]
WannaB Offline
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Registered: 02/27/09
Posts: 7
Loc: Hungary
Originally Posted By: snazzyplayer
I don't think James comes here to promote his product

I think he does. Check his name.

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#1326840 - 12/16/09 05:05 PM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: WannaB]
snazzyplayer Offline
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Originally Posted By: WannaB
Originally Posted By: snazzyplayer
I don't think James comes here to promote his product

I think he does. Check his name.


That's true, WannaB.

Well, perhaps James can explain why he is here, and why his user name is such.

I can imagine if you're working for a company, it's hard to be unbiased.

Snazzy
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#1326843 - 12/16/09 05:10 PM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: turandot]
dewster Offline
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Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: turandot
To say that what's available is "so far from state-of-the-art that it's criminal" means that someone is hiding something somewhere that could earn him money, fame, or both.

The technical hurdles involved in making a real sounding, recording quality DP are not that great, and the final cost could easily be around that of a mid-level DP. Why KAWAI doesn't offer this product right now is what I would like KAWAI James to comment on - I seriously don't understand the conspicuous absence of this entire product category.

turandot, I'll save you the trouble of replying - [insert text saying if I'm so smart why don't I just build it myself].
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#1326899 - 12/16/09 06:13 PM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: dewster]
turandot Offline
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Originally Posted By: dewster


turandot, I'll save you the trouble of replying - [insert text saying if I'm so smart why don't I just build it myself].


Nah, that's not important. You're too busy here. You can get to that later. grin

I think compression of the sound is a huge issue affecting the dynamic and the tonal range. It's just that your way of bringing attention to it is a little extreme. When someone starts writing about dancing on other people's graves, he often winds up dancing on his own dungheap while adding to it at the same time.
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#1326952 - 12/16/09 07:17 PM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: Vincent L.]
Glenn NK Offline
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Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 457
Loc: Victoria BC
Originally Posted By: Vincent L.
If I may - I would like to get back to the original question "Anyone else try to settle down with a DP and not been able to make it work?"

I have tried but failed.


I settled down with a DP, but I realized that to make it work, I would have to give up on anything that used samples. DPs are romplers (samples burned to rom). Connecting discrete samples recorded with limited velocity layers to achieve a smooth interactive sound is essentially impossible (but they keep trying).

To quote a user from another forum, "The problem with samples is that's all you've got - a snapshot of a particular element at one point in time. There's no interaction between any two disparate elements."

Physmod produces an extremely playable sound and although the sound is not quite up to a nine foot grand, it's quite passable, it's better than any DP I've ever tried. With physmod, I strongly suspect that within a year or so, we'll have a very convincing sound.

A quick search of my posts will reveal what I use (if anyone is interested).

Glenn

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#1327056 - 12/16/09 09:59 PM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: Glenn NK]
Kawai James Offline
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Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9558
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
LS35A, please allow me to apologise in advance for the off-topic nature of the post that I am about to write. However, there are a number of points that I would like to address.

Originally Posted By: dewster
KAWAI James, you are johnny-on-the-spot when someone has a minor issue with a KAWAI foot pedal or whatever, offering to help them with quality issues or feedback to the factory and such.


Thank you. This is perhaps the main reason for my participating in this forum - to answer questions about KAWAI digital piano instrument, and to assist KAWAI customers with any issues that they may be experiencing.

Originally Posted By: dewster
But what about critical sound quality issues with KAWAI DPs? Sample looping and stretching are not necessary any more, so why does KAWAI continue to use these outdated compression methods, even on your top-of-the-line models?


Since the ES6 was launched last August, all new KAWAI digital pianos (with the exception of the EP3 - essentially a reduced specification version of the ES6) feature 88-key piano sampling as standard. Therefore, the process of 'pitch shifting', 'spreading', or 'stretching' piano samples is no longer necessary. Incidentally, I believe this is also true of most Roland digital pianos.

Originally Posted By: dewster
Doesn't it bother KAWAI that customers spend lots of money on your products, but then have to turn to third party software running on a PC when they want an acceptable sound, relegating their DP to mere controller status?


I believe the majority of digital piano customers - regardless of brand - are perfectly satisfied with the sound produced by their instruments. However, I accept that the number of players using Pianoteq, Ivory, Garritan, and other software piano packages is growing, and therefore fully expect to see more products aimed at these users in the future.

May I ask if you are familiar with the DP1, KAWAI's premium digital grand piano instrument launched a few years ago. It utilises PC-based hardware (running a custom Linux kernel), and offers unstretched, non-lopping piano samples, a button-less touch panel interface, and 5.1 speaker S/PDIF output. It delivers exactly the kind of technical innovation that you are requesting. This instrument commands a premium price-tag, certainly, however its very existence suggests that my engineering colleagues are somewhat more knowledgeable of emerging technologies than you are prepared to acknowledge.

Originally Posted By: dewster
I suspect he doesn't have any real authority (not his fault, who does in a modern corporation?) and is afraid he might reveal some proprietary information and catch hell for it.


You're absolutely right. However, divulging confidential information can also have wider implications (see below).

Originally Posted By: snazzyplayer
The fella I buy some of my vintage synths from is a Yamaha clinician way up there in Canada. He tells me that he had to sign an NDA, which stands for Non Disclosure Agreement.

No doubt Kawai James is held by the same or similar agreement.


Correct. In addition, because KAWAI (Japan) is a listed company, there is the possibility - however remote - that my contributions to this forum may influence the price of the company's stocks and shares. In an effort to combat insider trading, all Japanese listed companies are expected to enforce strict rules upon their employees.

Originally Posted By: snazzyplayer
I don't think James comes here to promote his product or to be taking guff from someone that's not happy with digitals as they are..I think he's just like the rest of us and has a passion for, and an interest in, digital pianos in general.


You're spot-on Snazzy! I have a genuine interest in digital pianos/keyboards (I grew up around them) and count myself very fortunate to work within this terrific industry. Participating in the forum allows me to enjoy communicating with others who share my passion for making music. Yet, it also offers an opportunity to learn about the broadening needs of digital piano consumers, and to improve the materials that I am responsible for creating.

Originally Posted By: snazzyplayer
Well, perhaps James can explain why he is here, and why his user name is such.


I believe this was covered in a previous post here. However, in summary, the reason for highlighting KAWAI in my username and signature is to ensure that other forum members are aware that I am employed by the company. This is one of the PianoWorld forum rules.

Quote:
I can imagine if you're working for a company, it's hard to be unbiased.


There is an element of truth in this, certainly. KAWAI will always hold a special place in my heart, however you will note that I currently do not own nor play a KAWAI instrument (although I expect this will change next year...). Regardless, I do strive to maintain a degree of objectivity in my forum posts, often recommending non-KAWAI models to prospective buyers or assisting customers of Yamaha or Roland instruments with technical queries.

Okay, well I believe this covers everything. If anyone has any further queries or comments, I would encourage them to send me a private message directly.

Kind regards,
James
x
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#1327176 - 12/17/09 01:15 AM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: Kawai James]
Glenn NK Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 457
Loc: Victoria BC
James:

You may be interested in this:

http://www.georgekolasis.com/best-pianos.html

Although it deals with acoustic pianos, it's interesting to note this technician's rating of the world's great pianos. Not surprising, he puts Fazioli at the top, but his comments on the Shigeru Kawai make me wonder if he wouldn't rate the Kawai second - high praise indeed.

A surprising omission is the NY Steinway (although he gives his reasons).

Clicking on the Kawai link is very interesting reading.

Glenn

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#1327203 - 12/17/09 02:15 AM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: dewster]
LS35A Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/31/09
Posts: 139
Loc: Hayden, ID
Originally Posted By: dewster

Anyway, do you have a set of good headphones? Speakers are notoriously bad at sound reproduction, and 99% of those built-in to DPs are an abomination in my ears. I recommend AKG K-271 (sealed) or AKG K-240 (semi-open). They won't get you around the scandalously obvious compression artifacting in what passes for even a very good DP sample set these days, but they can vastly improve the listening experience.


I do have a pair of very good headphones, Denon D5000. I listened to them tonight on my DP. Result? Horrendous sound. I noticed the same thing when I bought external monitors and hooked them up to my keyboard....it sounded worse. Plastic and unnatural and nothing like a piano. I'm afraid better speakers (including headphones) just allow me to hear exactly how bad a medium-priced DP sounds.

Everything was fine for about nine or ten months. Until I started taking lessons and heard a real piano every week.

I'm afraid 'better' DP's, CA93, HP307, etc, will just be a temporary fix and after ten months of hearing one I would 'acclimate' to it's sound and then it would sound nothing like a piano to me.

I'd like to be wrong about that. I'd like to think a 'high-end' DP is a practical alternative to having a four hundred pound beast in my living room. But I'm getting more skeptical all the time.

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#1327222 - 12/17/09 03:19 AM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: LS35A]
Glenn NK Offline
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Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 457
Loc: Victoria BC
Originally Posted By: LS35A
I'd like to think a 'high-end' DP is a practical alternative to having a four hundred pound beast in my living room. But I'm getting more skeptical all the time.


A high end DP still utilizes prerecorded samples.

I'll repeat what I said above:

To quote a user from another forum, "The problem with samples is that's all you've got - a snapshot of a particular element at one point in time. There's no interaction between any two disparate elements."

A sample is just a part of the entire sound, not the whole sound. Hence it's not connected to other sample sounds. Only computer trickery can make them sound somewhat connected, but they really aren't.

When I listen to demos on sample sites I hear anomalies in the sound, or discontinuities. Standard DPs have done a better job at interconnecting the sounds, but the quality of the sounds is not good because really good samples would require a horrendous amount of storage space.

Roland has raised the bar with the V-Piano, and my personal take is that in time, the others will follow, or be left behind. Putting a fake soundboard with speakers with a shape that attempts to look like a grand (but is even shorter and more ridiculous looking than a baby grand) isn't going to save their bacon I think.

James stated that "the majority of digital piano customers - regardless of brand - are perfectly satisfied with the sound produced by their instruments." I was for too many years - convenience kept winning over the acoustic - but in the end I gave up on the sample concept.

I would have given up sooner if there had been a workable alternative - I tried the physmod program two years ago, but my DP was still as good - then a year ago I discovered that physmod had improved enough to win. In October of this year, another version came out. "Mr. Roland, I apologize for not using your sounds, but you do make a nice action."

James also said, "I accept that the number of players using Pianoteq, Ivory, Garritan, and other software piano packages is growing, and therefore fully expect to see more products aimed at these users in the future." DP users are slowly recognizing reality, and the software products are getting better faster than are the standard DPs (when price is inevitably factored in).

Glenn


Edited by Glenn NK (12/17/09 03:29 AM)

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#1327288 - 12/17/09 08:11 AM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: Glenn NK]
snazzyplayer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/26/09
Posts: 983
Loc: Earth
Originally Posted By: Glenn NK


Putting a fake soundboard with speakers with a shape that attempts to look like a grand (but is even shorter and more ridiculous looking than a baby grand) isn't going to save their bacon I think.



If you're referring to the Avant Grand, their bacon is doing remarkably well....sizzling actually.

My buddy Zeke has sold two since I bought mine, and apparently elsewhere, the instrument is selling far beyond expectations. It is an esthetically beautiful, and richly rewarding instrument to look at and to play.

The V-Piano seems to be very slow coming out of the gate.

Friend Zeke liked the Roland when he saw it at it's unveiling, as did a lot of dealers, but very few are willing to take in such a niche product and end up getting stuck with it. Roland has approached him and may put one on the floor at their risk.

It doesn't have the look that people want in a very pricey piano; it looks just like another Roland digital...and, it doesn't feel any different than Roland's top end digitals...in fact, it doesn't sound a whole lot better either. The mids are very plasticky.

Probably it will end up as a studio instrument, and maybe it will be purchased (or given to and endorsed by) some high profile performers, but it is hardly something someone will use in a band that doesn't have roadies. It's too heavy and bulky for one person to move and set up.

The home market is where the money is; pros are the intended market for V-Piano, but, most pros are using VSTs, which are much cheaper.

I guess time will tell if it will be a success, and I hope for Roland's sake it is. They've discontinued several high profile products, including their mid and high end arrangers, and it seems they might have put all their feed in the V-Pig V-Piano. wink

Let's hope it doesn't turn out to be a pig in a poke.

Snazzy

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#1327350 - 12/17/09 09:57 AM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: snazzyplayer]
LS35A Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/31/09
Posts: 139
Loc: Hayden, ID
Originally Posted By: snazzyplayer


The V-Piano seems to be very slow coming out of the gate.

Friend Zeke liked the Roland when he saw it at it's unveiling, as did a lot of dealers, but very few are willing to take in such a niche product and end up getting stuck with it. Roland has approached him and may put one on the floor at their risk.

It doesn't have the look that people want in a very pricey piano; it looks just like another Roland digital...and, it doesn't feel any different than Roland's top end digitals...in fact, it doesn't sound a whole lot better either. The mids are very plasticky.

Let's hope it doesn't turn out to be a pig in a poke.


Six grand IS JUST WAY TOO MUCH MONEY FOR WHAT IT IS.

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#1327382 - 12/17/09 10:38 AM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: Kawai James]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
KAWAI James, thank you very much for finally answering some of my questions.

Originally Posted By: KAWAI James
Since the ES6 was launched last August, all new KAWAI digital pianos (with the exception of the EP3 - essentially a reduced specification version of the ES6) feature 88-key piano sampling as standard. Therefore, the process of 'pitch shifting', 'spreading', or 'stretching' piano samples is no longer necessary. Incidentally, I believe this is also true of most Roland digital pianos.

Thank you also for that technical information regarding your DP product line (more than I was able to get out of Yamaha). Absent information like this, I find it very difficult to buy any DP, as comparison shopping must then involve me ferreting it out myself on a demo in some noisy Sam Ash. I can easily detect looping, and stretching is usually audible, but the number of sample layers is generally impossible to determine - fortunately manufacturers often supply it as it is a positive selling point.

Originally Posted By: KAWAI James
May I ask if you are familiar with the DP1, KAWAI's premium digital grand piano instrument launched a few years ago. It utilises PC-based hardware (running a custom Linux kernel), and offers unstretched, non-lopping piano samples, a button-less touch panel interface, and 5.1 speaker S/PDIF output. It delivers exactly the kind of technical innovation that you are requesting. This instrument commands a premium price-tag, certainly, however its very existence suggests that my engineering colleagues are somewhat more knowledgeable of emerging technologies than you are prepared to acknowledge.

No, but I'll check into it. I'm mainly interested in a portable stage piano with these features. If it were hugely mutable and programmable like Pianoteq I'd pay quite a bit more. For a sampled piano like the DP1 it would either have to have a really great sample that I love, or downloadable samples.

Originally Posted By: KAWAI James
Correct. In addition, because KAWAI (Japan) is a listed company, there is the possibility - however remote - that my contributions to this forum may influence the price of the company's stocks and shares. In an effort to combat insider trading, all Japanese listed companies are expected to enforce strict rules upon their employees.

This is why I am SOOOOO glad I don't work for a large corporation anymore. Too much secrecy BS. Too much mismanagement. Also, I basically signed my intellectual life away with the employment agreement, they claimed ownership on everything I thought during my employment of that could possibly make money. That, and they owned my code - it was that which finally drove me out. Private contractors retained much more personal control over their intellectual output. If I ever go back to industry it will be privately.

Right now I'm a 24/7 layabout (I bet you can't tell).
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#1327387 - 12/17/09 10:43 AM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: dewster]
snazzyplayer Offline
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Registered: 07/26/09
Posts: 983
Loc: Earth
Originally Posted By: dewster



I'm mainly interested in a portable stage piano with these features. If it were hugely mutable and programmable like Pianoteq I'd pay quite a bit more. For a sampled piano like the DP1 it would either have to have a really great sample that I love, or downloadable samples.



Have you considered the Roland V-Piano?

Snazzy
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#1327388 - 12/17/09 10:44 AM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: snazzyplayer]
dewster Offline
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Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Glenn NK
Putting a fake soundboard with speakers with a shape that attempts to look like a grand (but is even shorter and more ridiculous looking than a baby grand) isn't going to save their bacon I think.


Ha ha! That's exactly how the AG strikes me too. You left out the 438 lbs (!) though.

My apologies to Snazzy.
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#1327400 - 12/17/09 10:57 AM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: LS35A]
dewster Offline
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Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: LS35A
Originally Posted By: snazzyplayer
The V-Piano seems to be very slow coming out of the gate.


Six grand IS JUST WAY TOO MUCH MONEY FOR WHAT IT IS.


I totally agree. And it weighs too much. And it's too much of a one-trick-pony. And it needs more work, I don't want to be one of those early adopters left holding the bag.
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#1327402 - 12/17/09 11:01 AM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: LS35A]
dewster Offline
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Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: LS35A
I do have a pair of very good headphones, Denon D5000. I listened to them tonight on my DP. Result? Horrendous sound. I noticed the same thing when I bought external monitors and hooked them up to my keyboard....it sounded worse. Plastic and unnatural and nothing like a piano. I'm afraid better speakers (including headphones) just allow me to hear exactly how bad a medium-priced DP sounds.


Well, at least you tried. The bass end of our P-120 sounds better through cans, but in the high end you can hear a metallic buzzing, kind of like a paperclip on the strings. It's worse with the sustain pedal down, it seems to be some kind of attempt at implementing fake sympathetic (some would say simply pathetic) resonance by way of reverb.
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#1327409 - 12/17/09 11:12 AM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: dewster]
snazzyplayer Offline
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Registered: 07/26/09
Posts: 983
Loc: Earth
Originally Posted By: dewster



My apologies to Snazzy.


No apologies necessary, son, all these silly criticisms simple vanish every time I sit down to play my beautiful Avant Grand.

It truly touches my soul.

So, Eric, do you actually intend to get another digital?

My guess is, not very much out there would be good enough for you. Thing is, there are those who get to sit down and enjoy the very best of what is being made today, while you can only spout criticisms and lame excuses why you don't (or won't) buy another digital. I'm glad I'm firmly ensconced in the first camp.

The other camp seems to employ macho posturing by insecure men who seem to believe buying anything less than an acoustic piano is practically child abuse.

Perhaps you have stated the obvious in a previous post when you asked if you were bitter. Doesn't seem that way to me...it's more like you might have a chip on your shoulder.

I certainly hope not, because they say a chip on the shoulder is a sure sign of wood higher up. wink

Get yourself something, son; if you can't afford the best, at least stick with what you have, get yourself a good teacher, and immerse yourself in the wonderful world of the digital piano.

The clock's ticking, and you aren't getting any younger by the sound of it. wink

Snazzy
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#1327526 - 12/17/09 02:20 PM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: snazzyplayer]
OldFingers Offline
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Registered: 01/14/06
Posts: 546
Loc: Boston, MA
Originally Posted By: snazzyplayer
No apologies necessary, son, all these silly criticisms simple vanish every time I sit down to play my beautiful Avant Grand.


Snazzy, I come at this from a different perspective as I own a 6' acoustic grand, an RX-3. It was too loud for my room and everything had to be damped down to the point of making the bass "tubby" and causing a noticeable loss in dynamic range. In addition there are a few notes in the 5th octave that bothered me from day one, and now, after owning this thing for three years, the 5th octave is so bright that it is annoying, even though it has been voiced several times. I am always amused when DP-owners lust after an acoustic grand as the "beast" can be so uncontrollable. In some ways I prefer the purity of my headphone/Ivory/MP8ii, but I'd like something more, so I'm considering the Avant Grand.

I don't understand why it is so, but DPs suffer from a lack of dynamic range. How would you characterize the AG in this respect, say compared to other DPs or even to an acoustic grand?

Also, since the AG has MIDI-out and Audio-in, what do think would happen if you used a software piano with the AG keyboard and AG speaker system? I guess I'm asking if the speaker system is stand-alone or is it's design somehow coupled to the Yamaha samples that are being played?

I apologize if this is too far OT, but this thread, while wandering here and there, has touched on some interesting issues wrt to state-of-the-art DPs.
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#1327533 - 12/17/09 02:30 PM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: snazzyplayer]
voxpops Offline
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I read this thread with interest. Here's my take on it.

I would love a really high quality acoustic piano, but I am bound by the usual constraints (money and space, mainly). Also my record with keeping goldfish as a child is not good - I would come home to a slimy green bowl and a floating corpse. Acoustic pianos need quite a lot of love and attention if they are not to end up like Gyro's.

There is one other impediment that holds me back. I know that if I bought my 10' grand, I would have to face the reality of my limits as a pianist - or really take up the challenge. I have frequently kidded myself that if I were only to buy the latest wonder-digital the shortcomings I hear when I sit down to play would be eradicated. I have a Nord Electro 2; I know that the electric pianos and organs are better on the Electro 3, and so I frustrate myself trying to work out how to come up with the $2k needed to satisfy my musical hunger. And yet, when I see accomplished players on YouTube putting the Electro 2 through its paces I wonder why I can't make mine sound like that. I also have a Roland RD-300SX. Its main piano sound is very good, but the action is synthetic and must surely be holding me back. Maybe I should buy a V-piano. And so it goes on. Even when a fine and affordable modeled piano comes along from Kawai or Yamaha, I expect that I'll be watching and waiting for the next improvement instead of spending the time fully enjoying the instrument in front of me, and working on my technique.

In that sense, maybe Gyro's right: all you need is a cheap digital to work on for 95% of the time. However, there's the other side of this coin. The feedback you get from your instrument is important in motivating you to want to play better. And while sampled instruments have got better and better (and despite my laziness I've really enjoyed having access to them), in the sample versus physical modeling debate I would fall definitely into the latter camp. The slight departure from "realism" is, IMHO, more than made up for by the more organic response. I love playing GEM instruments for that reason. But they are not perfect - innovative products rarely are. It takes time for problems to be ironed out. Those who cite Pianoteq as the proof that the DP manufacturers are failing in their duty are maybe forgetting that it is only in the last year or so that the product has matured to a level which generates near universal approval. Also, such modeled software requires quite a lot of computing grunt to avoid latency and other issues.

And what about that dirty word, profit? For manufacturers to give us what we want, they have to be able to make money. If they've brought out a line of sampled instruments, I expect they have to sell that technology for a number of years to pay for the development costs, and to fund on-going R&D. Will the V-piano make money? By itself, I doubt it, but as the first in the line of Roland's modeled pianos it will probably spawn a number of very interesting offshoots. Impatience is our modern disease, but in time I think we'll have some remarkable instruments to choose from. In the meantime, where's that old book of Czerny exercises?
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#1327575 - 12/17/09 03:16 PM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: OldFingers]
snazzyplayer Offline
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Originally Posted By: OldFingers


I'm considering the Avant Grand.

I don't understand why it is so, but DPs suffer from a lack of dynamic range. How would you characterize the AG in this respect, say compared to other DPs or even to an acoustic grand?

Also, since the AG has MIDI-out and Audio-in, what do think would happen if you used a software piano with the AG keyboard and AG speaker system? I guess I'm asking if the speaker system is stand-alone or is it's design somehow coupled to the Yamaha samples that are being played?



I can't say the Avant Grand suffers from a lack of dynamic range, but I can tell you that playing it is uncannily like playing an acoustic piano. I've been playing piano since I was a youngster.

Of course, all this is personal opinion and very subjective, and you would do best to go and spend some time playing one. They are a fair amount of money, but again, in my opinion, the instrument was worth it.

I can't say what it would be like to play/control a software piano, because I don't use VST's at all. I'm mostly an "instrument has to be self-contained" sort of fellow, and only use the MIDI on my P-85's to control my arranger keyboards.

If you played another keyboard (controller) through the Avant Grand (with MIDI), you would not get the tactile feedback as the sound is linked to the latter's key action.

Same with headphones....no feedback, just a great piano action.

I love the transposer and I'm thinking of MIDI'ing one of my modules for that classic "piano and strings" sound.

I'm happier than a flea on a fat dog, and see no need of ever having to deal with acoustic pianos again...they are too much maintenance for a lazy fellow like me, and I can't stand the sound of them slowly going out of tune. I gave my Steinway B to my friend Zeke for his studio, and as far as I'm concerned, it can stay there; I don't miss it. The Avant Grand is far more enjoyable to play.

It sure is nice to have a forum devoted to us lovers of digital pianos, although there seems to be a few here that still seem to think an acoustic is better.

I just mostly ignore them; they should be on the other part of the forum that deals with acoustics, not here among us digital piano aficionados. I think they're a little jealous, myself. wink

Before I forget, the Avant Grand has 256 notes of polyphony, and a 500 watt speaker system that brings out every nuance of the sound.

I don't regret buying it for one second. Plus, it looks absolutely stunning.

Snazzy
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#1327603 - 12/17/09 03:56 PM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: Glenn NK]
dewster Offline
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Originally Posted By: Glenn NK
A sample is just a part of the entire sound, not the whole sound. Hence it's not connected to other sample sounds. Only computer trickery can make them sound somewhat connected, but they really aren't.

I'm going to pick a nit here and say that a sample IS the whole sound, and that is both good and bad.

It's good in that the sample IS the sound of the whole piano playing that note at that velocity. You get the whole enchilada: the hammer hitting the strings, the strings slowly beating against each other, the soundboard, the case, etc. It's bad however when you play more than one sample, such as when another key is played, or when two velocity layers of the same note are interpolated, because then you are combining the sound of the whole piano two or more times, which can lead to severe phasing issues. Phase issues with pedal-down (un-dampered) samples must be even more problematic, as the sympathetic resonance of all the strings must be accommodated.

And that's just mono sampling. Stereo sampling is even more of a nightmare as the stereo image is highly dependent on phase.

I'm not sure how engineers are even able to do this well. Indeed, some do it very well and others not so well, so there must be something of an art to it. To minimize variation I imagine they place the piano in a tightly controlled climate and do the sampling as quickly as possible. They might also use some kind of phase correcting software in post-processing. I'm almost positive they use some form of aggressive noise reduction in post-processing, otherwise the noise floor would rise unacceptably when many samples are played back at once.

Originally Posted By: Glenn NK
When I listen to demos on sample sites I hear anomalies in the sound, or discontinuities. Standard DPs have done a better job at interconnecting the sounds, but the quality of the sounds is not good because really good samples would require a horrendous amount of storage space.

I think the samples themselves in DPs are generally OK to good - it's stretching and looping that kill them. The discontinuities you mention might be due to too few velocity layers, or a bandwidth (CPU or hard drive) bottleneck taxing the playback hardware / software. There are often many tweaks you can do to sample playback software to minimize or eliminate these discontinuities, though sometimes the sample set is just poorly made.

A few years ago I had the EastWest Bosendorfer sample that utilized the NI Compact player. I picked it as my first sampled piano because people were giving it rave reviews. I tweaked it until I was blue but could never get it anywhere near acceptable. Most of it was due to the noise floor of poor sample set, and the abrupt transition between velocity layers. On one note/velocity sample you can clearly hear the sound of something dropping on the floor in the studio! Talk about no QC...

My VintAudio C7 close-miked sample playing on NI Contact is night and day compared to it. Once it is setup correctly I really can't tell I'm not listening to the real thing, no obvious artifacting, glitching, switching, dynamics issues, or anything. There is a sample of it at Purgatory Creek (I'm not sure how carefully it was made, though).

Originally Posted By: Glenn NK
James stated that "the majority of digital piano customers - regardless of brand - are perfectly satisfied with the sound produced by their instruments." I was for too many years - convenience kept winning over the acoustic - but in the end I gave up on the sample concept

Piano is actually one of the few musical instruments that can be completely sampled acceptably and believably. This is due to there being only a few dimensions of freedom when playing it - the selection of the note to play, the velocity of note played, the time after that the key is released, and whether or not the sustain pedal is pressed (and perhaps how far, for 1/2 pedal effects). It just cries out to be sampled.

All that said, I also vastly prefer the physical modeling approach, but could easily live with a good sample on a good sample playback device.
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#1327620 - 12/17/09 04:19 PM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: voxpops]
dewster Offline
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Originally Posted By: voxpops
I love playing GEM instruments for that reason. But they are not perfect - innovative products rarely are. It takes time for problems to be ironed out.

Wasn't it their modeled sympathetic resonance that got everyone excited at the time? To me that is a huge part of the piano experience.

Originally Posted By: voxpops
Those who cite Pianoteq as the proof that the DP manufacturers are failing in their duty are maybe forgetting that it is only in the last year or so that the product has matured to a level which generates near universal approval.

Version 3.5 is great, but I was pretty happy with version 2.

Originally Posted By: voxpops
Also, such modeled software requires quite a lot of computing grunt to avoid latency and other issues.

It's been my experience that Pianoteq is a fairly moderate computational load on my not-so-new PC. Samplers on the other hand routinely bring it to it's knees.

Originally Posted By: voxpops
Impatience is our modern disease, but in time I think we'll have some remarkable instruments to choose from.

I haven't done detailed head-to-head comparisons yet, but I was quite shocked to discover very little difference between the very latest Yamaha P-155 and my old out-of-production P-120, despite the passage of two DP generations and 9 years time. Impatience doesn't begin to describe what I'm feeling.
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#1327630 - 12/17/09 04:42 PM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: OldFingers]
snazzyplayer Offline
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Originally Posted By: OldFingers

Snazzy, I come at this from a different perspective as I own a 6' acoustic grand, an RX-3.


Just like to add, OldFingers (I like your user name)...the hybrid approach was taken pretty earnestly even at the beginning design stages of the Avant Grand.

It's the first Yamaha digital project on which the acoustic piano division of the company had equal input.

OldFingers, you really have to try this piano out to see/hear what I'm at a loss of words to describe.

Snazzy
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#1327683 - 12/17/09 05:52 PM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: snazzyplayer]
OldFingers Offline
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Loc: Boston, MA
Originally Posted By: snazzyplayer
Just like to add, OldFingers (I like your user name)...the hybrid approach was taken pretty earnestly even at the beginning design stages of the Avant Grand.

It's the first Yamaha digital project on which the acoustic piano division of the company had equal input.

OldFingers, you really have to try this piano out to see/hear what I'm at a loss of words to describe.

Snazzy



Sad to say my UserName is quite descriptive of the state of my fingers, but they're not yet arthritic so I have to enjoy playing while I can.

I seriously considered making my RX-3 into a hybrid piano with a MIDI strip and Ivory, but didn't have the courage to address the speaker issue. That's one of the nice things about the AG, they made a complete hybrid piano/speaker system.

I have been in contact with my local Yamaha dealer who had one for me to try, but I was afraid to give it a go as I can be quite an impulsive buyer, and I have this monster RX-3 to get rid of. Also, I wanted to get as much feedback as I could from the PF so that I would know what to look out for. So far, the major negative, aside from price, seems to be that the keyboard resonances are unrealistic.

Also, it bothers me a little that there is no provision for upgrading the software should better samples or better models come along. That's where I agree dewster, as it would seem that for $15K one could easily have put a computer in the thing, and then we could do everything, even room equalization. But there is some comfort in knowing that a software piano could be coupled to the AG, albeit without the keyboard resonance, which might not be a bad thing.

But snazzy rest assured, testing the AG is at the top of my list of New Year's resolutions.

Bob
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#1327698 - 12/17/09 06:12 PM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: snazzyplayer]
turandot Offline
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Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7265
Loc: torrance, CA
Originally Posted By: snazzyplayer


It sure is nice to have a forum devoted to us lovers of digital pianos, although there seems to be a few here that still seem to think an acoustic is better.

I just mostly ignore them; they should be on the other part of the forum that deals with acoustics, not here among us digital piano aficionados. I think they're a little jealous, myself. wink


Hey, Snazzy. Don't forget the handful of us here who keep both on hand and want no part of any [which-is-better?] comparison.

I enjoyed reading the posts on this thread today from voxpops, OldFingers, dewster, and snazzy. Informative and well-mannered too. grin

I can see a little of me in all of you. I'm a self-contained guy like snazzy. I bought a software piano (Ivory Italian) to see what all the fuss was about, but I don't use it much now because of the lengthy set-up and reliance on two many pathways for my klutzy nature to be comfortable with.

Last year there was a thread here asking dp people what they would like to see coming out at NAMM. My wish was for a dp with a few software pianos on tap, perhaps some of the better existing ones licensed by Roland since Roland is not chained to any acoustic master. What we got from NAMM was the V. Like voxpops, I thought about it, but I really don't need or want that level of sound manipulation and I don't like what's missing either in a product that costs 5-6k.

Like Oldfingers I pay the room and board for an acoustic, and like dewster and Oldfingers I don't like the compression of dynamic range in dp sound. Perhaps I notice it more because I have an acoustic around. I do put up with the limited dynamic range though and don't really get frustrated because my own piano use is for composition and arranging, and not for trying to play some predetermined repertoire at the highest level I can.

On the weak points of digitals that haven't changed that much in the past five years or so, I wonder if the dash for polyphony has gotten in the way of things in the same way the mad dash for megapixels has hampered a smooth curve in the product development of digital cameras.

My own needs are:

a daily dose of being inside the music that can only be provided by my headphones (attached to a keyboard grin )

instant hassle-free recording and playback to evaluate all the structural and expressive elements that I'm trying to work out

availability of a few basic instrument simulations (no need for ultra-realism though)

an alternative tone and touch for when I'm bored

Since the first three will never be part of any acoustic that is really acoustic, I have to put up with whatever I can get from a dp that I can afford (and that ain't so much $wise) because unlike Snazzy I'm not ready to put all my eggs in one basket. I usually have 2 or 3 dps at home and turn digitals and acoustics over more often than most players.

The third -- the boredom -- sets in really early with me no matter how impressive the credentials of my 'best' owned piano are. I think part of the problem is that I am usually working on one thing and one thing only for several months (which is why my family members are keen on my headphones too grin)

Over the years I've owned some really nice acoustics, but still have become jaded and had more fun when I could take a break on someone else's acoustic even if it would probably be judged by most to be inferior to my own. I guess since the music is the same in my case, changing the tone of the instrument or the whole instrument keeps things fresh. I do enjoy the more wide-open playing experience of the acoustic, but the percentage of time spent on my acoustic has been decreasing the last few years as the capabilities of digitals become more and more attractive.

Thanks for letting me bore you. Your posts got me thinking about these things.

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#1327716 - 12/17/09 06:37 PM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: snazzyplayer]
dewster Offline
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Originally Posted By: snazzyplayer
...the hybrid approach was taken pretty earnestly even at the beginning design stages of the Avant Grand.

It's the first Yamaha digital project on which the acoustic piano division of the company had equal input.


Ah, so that's where the 438 lb specification came from! ;-)
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#1327733 - 12/17/09 07:00 PM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: dewster]
snazzyplayer Offline
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Originally Posted By: dewster

Ah, so that's where the 438 lb specification came from! ;-)


It's like my 425 lb Hammond B-3.

There's just something about all that mass and wood and tactile feedback that makes you feel connected with the soul of the instrument.

I don't blame you if you're envious...I'm even jealous of me. wink

Snazzy
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#1327735 - 12/17/09 07:04 PM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: dewster]
LS35A Offline
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Registered: 10/31/09
Posts: 139
Loc: Hayden, ID
Original poster here. I BOUGHT A PIANO today. I found a really nice store the 'Piano gallery'. They had lots of pianos, grands, uprights, DP's. They had lots of Roland DP's which were nice, but not as nice as a real piano, or the YAMAHA N2 which they HAD ON DISPLAY!! It was fabulous. Felt like a real piano. Sounded like a real piano. If I were rich and lived in a condo somewhere that's what I'd want.

But it was ten grand, which is, frankly, insane. Because the just over four grand Yamaha P560 upright sounded MORE LIKE A PIANO and played MORE LIKE A PIANO. Six grand buys a lot of tunings and moving.

So I bought the M560, in Cherry, Queen Anne style.

More details later, but for now, short version is I'm thrilled to death. Can't wait to get my Yamaha P560!!!!

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#1327741 - 12/17/09 07:10 PM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: LS35A]
dewster Offline
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Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: LS35A
Original poster here. I BOUGHT A PIANO today.

Congratulations!!!
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#1327744 - 12/17/09 07:16 PM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: LS35A]
snazzyplayer Offline
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Originally Posted By: LS35A



But it was ten grand, which is, frankly, insane. Because the just over four grand Yamaha P560 upright sounded MORE LIKE A PIANO and played MORE LIKE A PIANO. Six grand buys a lot of tunings and moving.



Yes, I am insane. Insanely happy. crazy

One of the many neat things about the Avant Grand is the being able to record right from the outputs...no mics, no baffles, no hassle.

And, it's not the cost of the maintenance on an acoustic that bothers me...it's the maintenance. frown

Congratulations on your new piano...it's nice to get exactly what you want/need isn't it?

I know that feeling too. wink

Snazzy
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#1327745 - 12/17/09 07:16 PM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: LS35A]
charleslang Offline
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Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 2084
Congratulations!

Yes, 6000 dollars is about 50 years' worth of tunings. shocked You made a good choice!
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#1327747 - 12/17/09 07:17 PM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: snazzyplayer]
dewster Offline
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Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: snazzyplayer
It's like my 425 lb Hammond B-3.

There's just something about all that mass and wood and tactile feedback that makes you feel connected with the soul of the instrument.


And you'll feel really connected with the instrument when your back goes out while schlepping it somewhere and 400+lbs of wood and soul land on you.

Now that's REAL tactile feedback! ;-)


Edited by dewster (12/17/09 07:17 PM)
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#1327748 - 12/17/09 07:17 PM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: dewster]
Kawai James Offline
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Congrats LS35A!

James
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#1327753 - 12/17/09 07:25 PM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: OldFingers]
ChrisA Offline
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Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 3841
Loc: Redondo Beach, California
Originally Posted By: OldFingers

I don't understand why it is so, but DPs suffer from a lack of dynamic range.


Not all DPs, only those selling at reasonable prices. The trouble is that sound systems with the required dynamic range are very, very expensive and not the kind of thing you can sell to a consumer, they have to be set up in the listening room by a pro and in most cases the room will need "treatment" At this level of audio perfection one does not "buy a set of speakers", one "hires an installation".

Good DPs themselves are easy to make. In fact the very first sampling DP ever made back in 1984 (the K250) was able to pass a blindfold listening test against a concert grand piano. The listeners were musicians. But,... They used a sound system that cost $40,000. and those were "1984 dollars". Today it would cost $100K

I'm pretty sure that if one were to connect a $100K sound system to a lowly Yamaha P155 it would sound better then most of the acoustic pianos in the world.

That said to get "good enough" sound one need spend only in the range of a "handfull of thousands". But even is this to much for most DP owners. So the reason for the lack of dynamic range, I'm sure is just economics. The technology existed in the 80s,

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#1327761 - 12/17/09 07:38 PM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: dewster]
snazzyplayer Offline
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Registered: 07/26/09
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Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: snazzyplayer
It's like my 425 lb Hammond B-3.

There's just something about all that mass and wood and tactile feedback that makes you feel connected with the soul of the instrument.


And you'll feel really connected with the instrument when your back goes out while schlepping it somewhere and 400+lbs of wood and soul land on you.

Now that's REAL tactile feedback! ;-)


Not at all...this little piggy stays home. I may be insane, but not that insane.

I have a Yamaha CP-300, and two Yamaha P-85's for gigging, and they fulfill all my needs for stage use.

No Eric, the Avant Grand is for my own enjoyment (or my guests), just like my Hammond B-3.

I will, however, take a good look at the new stage pianos from Yamaha.

The C1 looks very interesting, as does the C5.

Snazzy
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#1327772 - 12/17/09 07:54 PM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: LS35A]
turandot Offline
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Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7265
Loc: torrance, CA
Originally Posted By: LS35A
the just over four grand Yamaha P560 upright sounded MORE LIKE A PIANO and played MORE LIKE A PIANO. Six grand buys a lot of tunings and moving.

So I bought the M560, in Cherry, Queen Anne style.


Yep, I've got to admit...you can't get that sound in a digital. grin
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#1327780 - 12/17/09 08:01 PM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: ChrisA]
dewster Offline
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Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: ChrisA
Good DPs themselves are easy to make. In fact the very first sampling DP ever made back in 1984 (the K250) was able to pass a blindfold listening test against a concert grand piano. The listeners were musicians. But,... They used a sound system that cost $40,000. and those were "1984 dollars". Today it would cost $100K

Well, you can quickly train your ear to easily hear the defects in modern mid-level DPs. If a DP jumped out of the bushes at some musicians back in 1984, they might be overcome by the technical prowess, and their untrained ears might not immediately notice these defects.

Originally Posted By: ChrisA
I'm pretty sure that if one were to connect a $100K sound system to a lowly Yamaha P155 it would sound better then most of the acoustic pianos in the world.

Like a good sound system, good headphones can bring out both the good and the bad in a DP. The bass was definitely improved, but I could easily hear looping on the P155 with my AKGs, even with a drummer pounding my brains out at the local Sam Ash. If you played a flurry of notes and didn't let it decay for too long I might miss it though.
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#1327782 - 12/17/09 08:01 PM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: turandot]
snazzyplayer Offline
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Registered: 07/26/09
Posts: 983
Loc: Earth
Originally Posted By: turandot
Originally Posted By: LS35A
the just over four grand Yamaha P560 upright sounded MORE LIKE A PIANO and played MORE LIKE A PIANO. Six grand buys a lot of tunings and moving.

So I bought the M560, in Cherry, Queen Anne style.


Yep, I've got to admit...you can't get that sound in a digital. grin


Of course you can't...anymore than you can get the digital to slowly drift out of pitch with itself and anything else played with it. grin

You must have ears of iron, or just be able to shut out the tuning discrepancies that eventually appear...and they will appear. eek

I'm made of weaker stuff, I guess...I expect the instrument to sound in pitch all the time.

Shucks, where did my mother go wrong. cry

Snazzy
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#1327792 - 12/17/09 08:14 PM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: LS35A]
OldFingers Offline
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Registered: 01/14/06
Posts: 546
Loc: Boston, MA
Originally Posted By: turandot
Thanks for letting me bore you. Your posts got me thinking about these things.

It was a pleasure reading about your piano experience. I suppose the problem has to do with everyone's perception of sound, which is such a subjective and personal experience. It's no wonder that we crave so many different qualities from our pianos.


Originally Posted By: LS35A
More details later, but for now, short version is I'm thrilled to death. Can't wait to get my Yamaha P560!!!!

It is thrilling when you finally make the decision. Congratulations.
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#1327802 - 12/17/09 08:31 PM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: snazzyplayer]
deburn Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/26/09
Posts: 27
Loc: Boston area
Great link snazzy! thanks! Chick Corea is my favorite musician, and has been for a long time, way before I decided to learn to play piano. It's also cool that he grew up in Chelsea Mass, which is where I live now!

I thought he was a Fender Rhodes guy, no?

Originally Posted By: snazzyplayer

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#1327816 - 12/17/09 08:54 PM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: deburn]
snazzyplayer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/26/09
Posts: 983
Loc: Earth
deburn,

The Avant Grand has a super Rhodes sound, and coupled with the great action, is a real joy to play.

I have a Rhodes 73 I am restoring...the action is the worst part about Rhodes pianos; most of them were not much fun to play; very uneven unless you had an expert go through it and fix things.

The action in mine is by Pratt Read, later ones were made by Wurlitzer.

The Rhodes sound on the Avant Grand is far more controllable...that's probably why Chick fell in love with it, although he has been endorsing Yamaha products for some time now.

Have you heard Chick play live?

Snazzy
_________________________
Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)

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#1327855 - 12/17/09 09:44 PM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: snazzyplayer]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9558
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
I didn't realise the Avant included non-acoustic piano sounds also.

I'll have to add it to my Christmas wish-list. wink

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1327954 - 12/18/09 12:06 AM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: turandot]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3866
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: turandot
I don't like the compression of dynamic range in dp sound.
You can find many faults in a DP (relative to an acoustic). But I can easily tolerate them all ... except for the dynamics. That's the thing I miss most in a DP. Where's the fortissimo?

I can crank up the volume to bring up the loud end. But the soft end comes upward with it. The range just is not there.

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#1327956 - 12/18/09 12:08 AM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: Kawai James]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3866
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: KAWAI James
... the Avant ...
I'll have to add it to my Christmas wish-list.
An AG for Christmas? I guess your Santa is MUCH better than mine! smile

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#1328004 - 12/18/09 01:28 AM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: Kawai James]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: KAWAI James
I didn't realise the Avant included non-acoustic piano sounds also.

I'll have to add it to my Christmas wish-list. wink



You might want to brace your floor in advance - Santa might make that 400+lb wish come true, and then where would you be?
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#1328183 - 12/18/09 10:08 AM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: dewster]
turandot Offline
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Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7265
Loc: torrance, CA
LS35 is now enlightening the members of the piano forum with the news of his purchase. Since a Yamaha furniture console trumps any and all digital pianos, it seems appropriate that he move to that higher ground. grin
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#1328189 - 12/18/09 10:15 AM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: Kawai James]
snazzyplayer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/26/09
Posts: 983
Loc: Earth
Originally Posted By: KAWAI James
I didn't realise the Avant included non-acoustic piano sounds also.

I'll have to add it to my Christmas wish-list. wink

Cheers,
James
x


James, the Rhodes sound on the Avant Grand is a knockout. thumb

One of the many advantages of a digital piano...of course, you already know that. wink

Best money I ever spent on an instrument.

Snazzy

_________________________
Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)

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#1328222 - 12/18/09 11:13 AM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: turandot]
LS35A Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/31/09
Posts: 139
Loc: Hayden, ID
Originally Posted By: turandot
LS35 is now enlightening the members of the piano forum with the news of his purchase. Since a Yamaha furniture console trumps any and all digital pianos, it seems appropriate that he move to that higher ground. grin


I had a digital piano and was dissatisfied with it, wondered if anyone else felt the same way and had any experiences or suggestions to share. So I started this thread which has been very popular and very helpful to me (which is nice).

I had an interesting shopping experience buying an acoustic piano so I posted that in the piano forum. There are lots of threads in that forum about piano dealers and how people do business, and prices people pay for pianos.

You posted a snarky comment in that threat, now in this thread. WHY DON'T YOU CRAWL BACK UNDER A ROCK YOU NASTY LITTLE CREEP?

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#1328233 - 12/18/09 11:37 AM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: LS35A]
snazzyplayer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/26/09
Posts: 983
Loc: Earth
Originally Posted By: LS35A


You posted a snarky comment in that threat, now in this thread. WHY DON'T YOU CRAWL BACK UNDER A ROCK YOU NASTY LITTLE CREEP?


I was not replying to your comments at all.

Shouting (using all caps) and calling someone names is rather pathetic (as well as impolite and childish), but I suppose it takes all kinds to make a forum.

May I take this opportunity to offer my congratulations on your new piano. thumb

Snazzy
_________________________
Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)

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#1328265 - 12/18/09 12:25 PM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: snazzyplayer]
voxpops Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3100
Loc: Oregon
Some of the things I have so enjoyed about this forum have been the helpful comments, insightful reviews and impassioned but polite argument about the things that drove us here in the first place. Please let's not spoil that.
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#1328270 - 12/18/09 12:28 PM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: voxpops]
snazzyplayer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/26/09
Posts: 983
Loc: Earth
Originally Posted By: voxpops
Some of the things I have so enjoyed about this forum have been the helpful comments, insightful reviews and impassioned but polite argument about the things that drove us here in the first place. Please let's not spoil that.


I agree wholeheartedly, Voxpops.

Well said.

Shouting and name calling should not be tolerated.

Snazzy
_________________________
Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)

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#1328417 - 12/18/09 03:11 PM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: LS35A]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7265
Loc: torrance, CA
Originally Posted By: LS35A
Originally Posted By: turandot
LS35 is now enlightening the members of the piano forum with the news of his purchase. Since a Yamaha furniture console trumps any and all digital pianos, it seems appropriate that he move to that higher ground. grin


I had a digital piano and was dissatisfied with it, wondered if anyone else felt the same way and had any experiences or suggestions to share. So I started this thread which has been very popular and very helpful to me (which is nice).

I had an interesting shopping experience buying an acoustic piano so I posted that in the piano forum. There are lots of threads in that forum about piano dealers and how people do business, and prices people pay for pianos.

You posted a snarky comment in that threat, now in this thread. WHY DON'T YOU CRAWL BACK UNDER A ROCK YOU NASTY LITTLE CREEP?


LS35,

Your first four posted words here were "I love my ES4". I believe that since those four words you have become increasingly antagonistic toward digital pianos. One example of that was starting a new thread here entitled "Bleeding Edge Digitals Are Insanely Overpriced". From that thread title it was clear that you were in no way interested in a discussion. You only wanted to set the record straight. In your stirring address to the members of the Piano Forum (A Tale of Two Dealers), your have set the record straight again by boasting of your ability to buy a piano (a furniture grade console at market price in a sub-market price economy) and pointing to your accomplishment as proof that piano retail can be A OK --- "See, it is possible to be a successful piano dealer these days" In this case, the basis of the retailer's success is that he sold a piano to you. To be honest, I don't think that selling a piano to you required much smarts from the dealer although it probably was a highlight of his day.

Meanwhile, back on the digital forum you have declared that your new Yamaha cherry entry-level furniture grade Yamaha console with Queen Anne Legs beats out any digital. Obviously, you are entitled to your opinion. There's no question about that. OTOH, if you really expect anyone else to do anything but laugh at your opinions, you may have some problems.

Take your acoustic purchase for example. You broke every rule in the book, or to be nice ,let's say that you bucked every convention in successful piano evaluation and shopping in your purchase. If you're happy, that's great!! But you're using a very loud trumpet to announce things that are really of no consequence at all. If you continue to do that, members will assume that you are a fool.
_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

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#1328850 - 12/19/09 04:50 AM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: turandot]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9558
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: snazzplayer
Best money I ever spent on an instrument.


Given your impressive collection, that's quite a statement!

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1328893 - 12/19/09 07:58 AM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: Kawai James]
snazzyplayer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/26/09
Posts: 983
Loc: Earth
Originally Posted By: KAWAI James
Originally Posted By: snazzplayer
Best money I ever spent on an instrument.


Given your impressive collection, that's quite a statement!

Cheers,
James
x


James, I'm afraid that Yamaha has slipped me another mickey with the release of the C1 Stage Piano, and it may well be equally as impressive on it's own merits, as the Avant Grand.

I may need to seek immediate treatment for G.A.S. (Gear Acquisition Syndrome) although, considering my track record, it will probably fail miserably. wink

However, the Avant Grand still continues to touch my soul as much as ever...I just figure it will be a mite tough to transport in my Honda Fit. wink

Snazzy
_________________________
Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)

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#1329014 - 12/19/09 11:37 AM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: turandot]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3866
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: turandot
But you're using a very loud trumpet to announce things that are really of no consequence at all. If you continue to do that, members will assume that you are a fool.
Who's trumpeting now? smile

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#1330801 - 12/21/09 04:24 PM Re: I'm starting to look at acoustic uprights [Re: snazzyplayer]
deburn Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/26/09
Posts: 27
Loc: Boston area
Hi snazzy, sorry for the delayed response. Yes, I have heard Chick play live a few times, but not as often as I'd like to!

Originally Posted By: snazzyplayer
deburn,

The Avant Grand has a super Rhodes sound, and coupled with the great action, is a real joy to play.

I have a Rhodes 73 I am restoring...the action is the worst part about Rhodes pianos; most of them were not much fun to play; very uneven unless you had an expert go through it and fix things.

The action in mine is by Pratt Read, later ones were made by Wurlitzer.

The Rhodes sound on the Avant Grand is far more controllable...that's probably why Chick fell in love with it, although he has been endorsing Yamaha products for some time now.

Have you heard Chick play live?

Snazzy


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