No, Dewpster is clearly biased against pretty well all digital pianos which he has described as "crap".

He has "reduced" himself to this position several times.

He has admitted this in other posts...just do some reading and you'll see...I'm not accusing him of anything that he has not described himself thus.

He has also admitted to being an amateur, and the possibility of inaccuracy of the tests, as well as the actual inaccuracies that did occur, which by now, thankfully have been corrected for the most part.


If there is any "misinterpretation of position", it is you misinterpreting mine.

So, do yourself a favor, and get your own facts correct before you start reducing yourself to a one dimensional poster.

Snazzy

Bullying and slander are fine as long as you tack a smiley at end of it?

Could you elaborate here? I don't have the faintest idea what you're going on and on about.

Well said, Joachim...Having had an Avant Grand N3, I didn't feel the CP-1 was an Avant Grand killer, especially as it does not have the tactile response that gives the N3 it's soul.

That being said, I believe using the CP-1's acoustic and electric pianos in an N-series instrument would be a wonderfully good idea, and a logical continuation of the line, especially if the price comes down and makes this type of digital piano available to more interested users.

I doubt if there will be a "portable" version, because having the "tactile response" system would add too much weight.

My only gripe with the N3 was the lack of more patches, such as strings, pads and organs....quite possibly the next generation (N4?) will include these important sounds.

Snazzy

I'm merely repeating your own admissions, only I haven't needed to use foul language.

Snazzy

I know this is like talking to the wall but here goes.

Calling someone who is dissatisfied with almost all DPs "biased" is like calling someone who is dissatisfied with humanity a "racist". Better logic please.

No it's not...that's your comparison.

My logic is just fine the way it is, thank you very much.

Snazzy

Please keep the thread on track by discussing Yamaha stage pianos and cease the name calling. If you disagree with someones opinion, you are welcome to say so and why. That doesn't mean you can attack them personally or call them names (or transliterate their forum name) and I don't care how many smilies you tack on.

This otherwise useful thread is headed toward a shutdown if the sniping back and forth continues.

In what will probably prove to be a fruitless attempt to keep this thread open, I have deleted recent posts which have nothing to do with Yamaha stage pianos. If these types of posts continue to appear, I'll eventually get tired of doing it and will lock the thread. The choice is yours as to whether that happens.

Hi Doc,

I play a Rhodes at our church, and the CP-1 makes you feel like you are actually playing that instrument.

I didn't like the CP-80 sounds because I've never really liked the CP-80 itself; I've always considered it a poor substitute for a piano, and I could never warm up to the bass notes. It does sound like the instrument, nevertheless.

I also agree with Pete about the way the new keyboard action seems to adapt, or conform to the type of piano that you select, and the CP-1 feels like an instrument designed by players for players, rather than technicians or marketers having the most say in it's development.

Best regards,

Colleen

Thanks for reigning in the invective.

I second that emotion.

There's been far too much vituperation. We're supposed to be friends here, even if we do disagree occasionally.

This is an important thread about important instruments.


Snazzy

@snazzy good to hear you also want to refrain for vituperation. Lets get friends again!

Hi,

as promised I have been to the local piano dealer this afternoon for a quite lengthy test of several DPs and stage pianos, along with a comarison of several APs.

My original intent was to test drive the new Yamaha CP-1, but unfortunately it's not yet available, and the salesman couldn't give me an arriving date either...

Anyway, so I had lots of time to play all the others... I literally played through almost all the DPs they had, except for the stuff that obviously was nothing I would consider (like Technics and Casio, although Casio seems to have some very interesting stuff for people who are on a budget.

This is what I tried:
Kawai CA63 (just for comparison although I own it)
Kawai CA93 for the additional escapement effect in the keyboard
Kawai CA51 (for comparison of new RM3 keyboard and sound with the old keyboard and sound)
Roland HP-307 (finally I got my fingers on one after Dewsters technical review and others positive feedback)
Roland V-Piano (Is that modeling really that great?)
Yamaha CLP-370 (after a while and get used to Kawai sound I wanted to compare with my "old" favorite)
Yamaha CVP-509 (flagship with the same sound engine on DPs as CLP-380)
Avant Grand N3 (First time!! A must-try!!)

Then I played a lot of the available acoustic uprights and a KAWAI acoustic grand for comparison of digital versus analog keyboard and sound.

I played all the DP with a decent headphone, all the acoustics (naturally!) and the Avant Grand N3 were played without headphones.

Of course I have to say that I might be biased in favor of the Kawai CA63 since I own it, just that you know.

These are my impressions after playing these DP with direct comparison:

I first played the HP-307, because after all I heard in this forum this could have been the most interesting DP. First of all, the keyboard is really something different than the CA63 keyboard: It's heavier, and you have to press the key down deeper to get a tone. It was much more difficult to me to reach the correct volume on notes, but of course this is also a matter of adaption. But it was a lot more difficult to play very softly and at the same time quickly up and down the keyboard. This is something that works amazingly well on the CA63 keyboard.
The sound was, well, decent. I know this doesn't sound enthusiastic, but it is like it is: Its a mellow sound with lots of different effects on it, but it's just mellow. You have to press the key very hard to get a bright sound, and this happens all of a sudden, it's difficult to get something in between... It helps a little bit to set the touch of the keyboard from "normal" to "light", but it's still a very different keyboard feeling as the CA63, for my taste not better. Not really convincing. The damper effect: It sound quite real, but also quite light. So I set the intensity from 5 to 10/10, but that produced an almost "chorus"-like effect, not realistic at all. You can set the damper effect of CA63 to maximum without this "overprocessing" feeling.
One word of caution: For a real fundamental judgement I would have need to play a little bit longer with it.

Then I played the V-Piano. Well, at first it seemed that it was much superior to the HP-307. Maybe because of the good playability and reaction to velocity changes. But on the other side, after some playing time, I had the feeling that the mids are somehow on the thin side. But overall the playability of this one was way a tad better than the HP-307, the brightness does not come to suddenly after velocity goes up. I played some time with it (20-30 minutes), in this timeframe I didn't change any settings, just played with the first piano grand setting, just fiddled a little bit on the ambience adjuster, that's all. This shows that it's really playable, it was a lot of fun. On the contrary, from the beginning I had the feeling that the sound is not real, there is some artificial touch in it, I can't explain this better. Bottom line: This is a good beginning but nothing I would buy for lots of money. I have quite similar feelings to this piano sound as I have to the pianoteq sound which I just don't like (but the V-Piano sound is better).

Then I played the CLP-370:
It's the known, bright piano sound that many people love. And it sounds quite good when playing fast musical pieces. But: After reading Dewsters test, I checked the sustain of the notes: The higher notes have a really creepy looped sound. It starts very soon, you can clearly hear the start of the loop, and it's just plain static... Horrible! I'm sure I would have detected that after my buy and would have really regret the buy.
The keyboard again is a matter of taste: If you love a rather heavy keyboard that starts running after you have forced down the key a bit, then this is right for you. Ivory touch of the keys is very nice.

The CVP-509 is of course something completely different. I only tried this one because the CLP-380 was not available and this one should be quite similar on the DP part. And indeed: The sound was Yamaha-like and much better than the CLP-370 sound. Also the key action was much better than the CLP-370 (was this real or just imagination?). But this one costs a real bargain!

After that I played my CA63 again just for comparison purposes. An this time there was this big "aaaah"! The keyboard felt perfect, and also the sound was just right! Maybe is was because I'm used to it, who knows! But it festl just so - right compared to the others.
CA93 - This has an additional escapement mechanism on the keyboard. I don't care too much about that, I played in my life 90% piano uprights and max. 10% grand pianos, so I anyway don't care for this escapement feeling.
CA51 - It has a quite different keyboard feeling (much lighter and a little wobbly, and of course no ivory), and the sounds are much more mellow and not that much expressive.

After that I went to the acoustic piano department. While the DP department was quite crowded (about 6-8 people strolling around and trying this and that), I was the only one in the acoustic piano department. So I had no inhibition to play them all and very loud and expressive.

What I discovered at once was that almost all of the acoustics where heavily out of tune. Asking a salesman about this I got the answer that they know about this and that the reason for that is, that the door is opening and closing all the time, and they cannot tune all the acoustics every week. What the ...? The place for such an instrument at our home would be the space between two large windows/doors to our backyard which of course will be open all time... I don't want to pay endlessly for a tuner... Anyway, the sustain and the damperless play was really impressive, but these were my conclusions:

- Detune is a real pain
- The keyboard of acoustic pianos / grands are very different, from mediocre to very good
- Long sustain notes and damper effects etc. are the absolute strengths of acoustics (of course!)
- There are extreme quality differences between the cheapest model (2.500 Euro, Ravenstein?) and an expensive upright (Kawai and Schimmel upright). There was not one keyboard that felt the same.
I also tried a Yamaha model (can't remember which one it was, but it was more on the cheap side, 4.000 Euro?) which had a very good keyboard and sound (at least I can imagine it has a good sound if it would have been in tune). The keyboard action is although not comparable to the Yamaha DP action, it's was better.

All in all: After playing the acoustic I get really confirmend that buying the CA63 was the right choice: The keyboard feeling of it was quite comparable to an upright, and is somehow on par and within the wide range of keyboard feelings of the uprights.

Then I played the N3: This one is really an impressive instrument:
It really has a 100% feeling of a real piano, and it also sounds like one, when playing through the loudspeakers! Very impressive, you can play nuances very good! I played about 30 minutes on this one, because I couldn't stop. The price tag although is really hefty: It says 13.500 Euro (of course without any negotiation, don't know the end result). But if you have the money, this could be really a consideration!

One additional thing: Within the acoustic piano department this one (although digital) sounded best! But this was no wonder considering the other were all more or less out of tune! I really don't know how they want to sell any acoustic!

After all, this is my very subjective and very spontaneous ranking:

1 Avant Grand N3 (way ahead)
2 KAWAI CA63 / CA93
3 Roland V-Piano
4 Roland HP-307
5 Yamaha CVP-509
6 KAWAI CA51
7 Yamaha CLP-370

It's a real close call between V-Piano and HP-307. Both of them have areas in which they shine and some weaknesses.

My final conclusion of the visit was, that I made everything right with buying the CA63! It's the best sounding and especially the best keyboard action in this price range! Furthermore all others, except CA51, are more expensive.

Hope this review helps you a little bit with your decision making, but always remember: Only actual playing and comparing shows you which DP is for you!

kawaian,

It's very interesting to read your review of the these DPs (and of course, I'm glad to hear that you are still very satisfied with your CA63), however your post doesn't really have anything to do with the CP1.

There are a number of comments I would like to make about your review, however I'm conscious that this may cause the topic to drift further.

Sorry, I don't wish to sound like a member of the 'forum police'...

Cheers,
James
x

Hehe, no I'm fine at all! I think I will republish as a new thread!

kawaian -

Thanks for your comments. Very interesting reading.

The CP-5 just showed up on Sweetwater's site with this note


http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/CP5/

Late May or early June at the soonest. I confirmed it again yesterday. I've got a new CP-300 on its way here for me to try as part of my live keyboard rig.

Mychal

Which actually works out better for me. I'll be low on cash in April and May but June and beyond should be much better, just in time for a CP-5/RD-700GX(SN) or ????

It would be very helpful if you could update your audition reviews on this thread where they would be very much on topic:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1363086/The

I've been able to play the CP1 this afternoon, however briefly. I wanted to like it, Yamaha is such a strong company with good reputation for their DP's, and seem to be the only ones without quality problems (discussed on other threads, e.g. key wear on Rolands, sound software issues on Kawais). I only had a few minutes, and played it with headphones.

I'm not familiar with EP's, so can't comment on that and it really seems to be a strong point of the CP1, so this post only pertains to the main AP sound.

First impression: very nice, subtle, equal along the whole range. Very nice + light keyboard.

However, there were 2-3 real buggers, and I don't know how adjustable they are with all the tweaking possibilities:

1) no string resonance!

2) even the slightest, slowest touch I was capable of produces a sound. I tried really hard - this just shouldn't happen.

3) it fails the sustain test (whereas other Yamahas succeed). Unfortunately I can't find the link to the thread where this is described + discussed, so here it goes: you press a key, then press the sustain pedal. Lift the key, the note is sustained. Press the same key again, without producing a new sound (well, impossible on the CP1). Lift the pedal, the note should still be sustained. On the CP1, the first sound dies... Most Yamahas get this right, even entry level models. Rolands didn't, until now (HP307 and RD700GX with the SN expansion succeed). Probably not important in day-to-day play, just an indication of how proper the software is implemented.

I've really been driven off by these things (CP1 is outside my budget anyway, but I had hopes for the CP5)... Are these issues tweakable?

Just my 2 cents... Luckily, this thread is back on track and we're all friendly persons, aren't we?

I don't think that CP1 has no string resonance. There must be a setting that disables or enables it. For sure.



Well, that also bugs me on my CA63, but it's not that important.



This is also definitely a problem also on my CA63... and this is detectable depending on how and what you play. Hope this will be fixed by a firmware release soon!

There should also be a possibility to update the firmware of CP1, I'm sure Yamaha will update the firmware from time to time, so there's still hope. It's disturbing though that this basic feature that worked on other models is now an issue on the brand new CP1...

This may be due to a patenting issue.

Cheers,
James
x

That something like this can be patented is obscene.

I agree - seems totally bizarre!

My old Kawai MP9000 behaves properly in this regard, so I'm happy. (fails the sustain test though)

Greg.

CP1 string resonance:

My guess would also be that there’s a button somewhere. I played it as it sounds when switched on (out of the box, I guess). Still, it’s a bit of a pity that it’s not there right away. OK, this is not a DP for the average player who doesn’t want to fiddle with buttons. In the merchandising brochure it states (for both the CFIIIS and the S6B) ‘The rich tone of this grand piano is faithfully reproduced in the CP1, even to the level of resonance between strings’. This clearly indicates string resonance. Also, in the sound enhancement section, ‘pre-amplifier unit’ they write about overtones. Another indicator.

From the CP1 manual:
What can be modified / tweaked in the ‘Piano Block’:
Decay Time, Release Time, Key Off Noise Level, Release Tone, Damper Resonance Level, Striking Position, Attack Timbre, Hammer Stiffness, Oscillator Detune.
All impressive, no string resonance yet.

What can be modified in the ‘PreAmp Block’:
Bass, Brilliance, Vibrato Depth, Input Gain, Low + Middle + High Frequencies, Peak Gain + Frequency, Vibrato Speed, Treble, Volume, and ‘Overtones’.
While I don’t understand half of it, overtones sounds like string resonance. Though no clear confirmation. At best, it could mean that you can even adjust the level of the string resonance (low, mid, high parts, …) which would be amazing.

There are more blocks, however no more indication of string resonance. If I remember well, the first two blocks (piano + preamp) were switched on when I played.

I’m positively certain that I didn’t hear any string resonance. Could someone who has had the chance to play around with it for a longer time, say if it’s there or not (and maybe how it can be switched on)? The test is very easy: press (and hold) a chord (e.g., C5, E5, G5, C6, what’s the name for this chord in English?) without producing a sound (well, on the CP1: wait until the initial sound has disappeared). Then attack e.g. C2 and C3. You should hear the upper chord as a faint sound. For me, this is one of the subtle, yet indispensable, features a DP should be able to reproduce. Not really audible when playing along, but adding this feeling of depth and richness.

Where is YAMAHA Bob / Keith, Yamaha Panama, …?

Sounds to me like someone had fiddled with the board and left it in a non standard state before you played it.

Thanks, Dr. Popper, for the clarification - it seems you can adjust pretty much anything on this beast. I would have been astonished if all this had really been missing in the CP1 (see my initial surprised reaction; all CLPs get things right except the string resonance that's only in the CLP380). Does it do all this 'out of the box'? I was under the impression it was set to standard 'factory' values. In no way I wanted to denigrate this fine instrument. Maybe it was the sales guy - I've already met him before in this shop and while he's a nice guy (not pushy or anything), he has a clear bias towards Roland (they only sell Yamaha and Roland DP's there).

Cheers

Yeah it does it on factory preset. What happens in stores is people fiddle with stuff and the boards get all muddled up.