It is my understanding that Korg has been using Fatar actions for some time now...previous to that, they used various Yamaha actions around the time they were rescued by the latter.

There is supposedly a Fatar semi-weighted action in my Korg PA2XPro that I can't really warm up to at all.

I do remember having a Korg SG-1D Piano in the studio for awhile, and I thought the action was almost identical to my Yamaha KX-88 controller.

You are someone who is in the know here on the forum...what are your thoughts about Fatar actions in general?

Snazzy

I'm probably going to go for the CP-5, although I am very interested trying the CP-1.

I suspect Roland will offer a similar setup on their new pianos...most likely a combination of sampling and modeling, which seems to me to be the most effective way of producing piano tones.

It reminds me of when synths changed to sample plus synthesis i.e. the Korg DW-6000/8000, Roland's D-50, and Yamaha's SY-77/99 where the most difficult part to make real, the attack portion of a note, was handled by a sample...the body still used synthesis.

Personally I don't really care how they do it, but I think sampling plus modeling is the best choice so far.

Snazzy

I would say that for sure you will see this. Roland had already replaced the HP-207 (etc.?) with a newer model that uses a combination of sampling and V-Piano technology.

I predict that eventually modeling will replace sampling entirely.

Does this mean you'll be coming back to the Pianoteq fold?

And yes, the future is not with samples, it's with modeling.

Glenn

The future is with sampling and modeling...Roland will go the same way as Yamaha with this.

Snazzy

Glenn -

With V-Piano as a controller, it's on the possibility list.

Lawrence

Snazzy -

Makes me wonder why I invested in V-Piano.

Lawrence

Lawrence,

I think it's very hard to get the mid-range as realistic as they would like with modeling only...Pianoteq suffers from the same issues. My friend Zeke has it in his studio, and neither of us like it all that much.

Maybe Roland will go with using both technologies, at least for the near future...didn't someone already mention that the highest end models are using both sampling and modeling? Hey! It was you!

I'm hoping the CP-5 isn't going to be much less than the CP-1 in the acoustic piano sound dept...I'd like to have the additional sounds.

Snazzy

Snazzy -

Don't quote me on that! I went back to check the source, and it's actually not clear re: the HP-307. Perhaps if I could read Japanese it would be more clear!

Anyway, if the HP-307 is in fact using samples + modeling, I would find that to be very interesting. Wouldn't it be rather an admission of some sort on Roland's part? Anyway, as I said, this needs to be confirmed. I'll track down the link to the original thread . . .

Lawrence

EDIT: here is the thread:
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...mpling%20o.html

Kawai's "harmonic imaging", is to my understanding, part modeling and part sampling. Would Yamaha's system be similar?

But when will someone finally give us SuperNATURAL Harmonic Spatial Acoustic Spectral Component Imaging?

Come on, we're dying out here...

Which is interesting because most of us that use Pianoteq exclusively tend to ask for a more realistic deep bass (more of a growling sound at ff and fff), and are quite satisfied with the midrange right up to the top.

The longer the string, the more harmonics it can develop; wire wound strings introduce another complex dimension in partials which requires computing power beyond what many gigging musicians can use practically (notebooks).

The major problem (I've pointed out here and on the Pianoteq forum) is that the learning curve is really quite steep, and without a good knowledge of the physics of a piano, AND a good sound system, adjusting for one's own sound is difficult and quite a bit of a moving target.

Also, the sound engine is regularly being updated; judging it based on versions 2.3 or 3.0 is misleading.

Glenn

I feel bad for you, Glenn, being stuck with nothing but Pianoteq. It's not something I would even dream of using exclusively....maybe if I couldn't get the CP-300 started in the morning.

What I think is going to happen is this new Yamaha CP-1 is going to knock the spots clear off Pianoteq, and mostly anything else out there.

Pianoteq reminds me of mostly every Roland piano I've played, ever since they dropped the old SAS engine...the mids are synthetic from A below middle C to the D or E above the octave C.

I agree the bass is kind of missing something, but even after Zeke upgraded it to the latest version, it's still not even in the same league as the V-Piano, in my opinion.

Things like pianos sounds are personal and subjective, right?

Well, personally and subjectively, I think Pianoteq is okay to use if you have a low or medium priced piano and want to add something to make it sound better, or if you're one that likes to tinker around, instead of playing.

Other than that, I wouldn't waste my money on it...seriously.

Snazzy

Oooooooooh. I have GAS for SHSAPCI!!! (Although it does sound like Japanese massage).

Lawrence

OK. I agree that both Pianoteq and V-Piano are lacking in the mid range. (V-Piano more so than Pianoteq). I also agree that it is because they are both modeled instruments.

My question is why?

After all, it's just numbers and real time computations isn't it? Why can't they get the mid range right? Using pure modeling?

Lawrence

Every day I wake up and thank the lord that I'm not a member of the team that writes the PT software. They have the toughest audience in the world.

I'm not saying that you are doing this Lawrence, but I think there is something about people knowing that it is 99% modeled that makes them hyper critical of the PT sound. TruePianos sounds much, much worse to me, but many people give it what I consider to be a huge break in comparison.

Anyway, back to your question, maybe it has something to do with the human ear being most sensitive in the midrange. Or maybe they aren't putting enough into modeling the string longitudinal vibrations. Or maybe there is something slightly out of kilter with the impulse response of the soundboard they convolve with everything else. Maybe it is a slight non-linear thing going on somewhere. Who knows. They are rather tight-lipped about how any of it works (I asked some specific questions in an email a year or so back, the response to which told me they didn't use digital waveguides) - all we can do is speculate about the black box that is PT.

Whatever it's flaws, I would seriously entertain killing in order to get PT inside my DP, even if it never evolved past v3.5.

Hyper-critical is the term for it. I have a V-Piano. I also just traded my GranTouch GT2 against a CVP 405 Clavinova. I have played almost everything out there, in fact owned much of it. We need to understand the distinction between the way a piano PLAYS and the way it SOUNDS. Of course sampled pianos sound like a piano. I mean, get real here folks. It is a recording of a piano! Modeled pianos have yet to be perfected I think we can all agree and yet they are immeasurably...IMMEASURABLY better as musical instruments. The point of an instrument is expression in my view. If we didn't want to express ourselves musically then why bother, just put a CD on and immerse yourself in a decent recording of a Steinway. Expression and musical emotion requires an instrument to be responsive to the touch. I haven't played Pianoteq, only heard some demos. But the V-Piano is in another league to sampled pianos AS AN INSTRUMENT.

All this nonsense about Roland undermining its own V-Piano because the new HP307 appears possibly to be a hybrid is crazy. The V-Piano IS the top of the range, not the HP307. Roland marketing needs to protect the position of the V-Piano and so of course they won't come out with something too soon that has exactly the same sound engine....IT WILL HAPPEN in time though.

The issues with the V-Piano midrange are there, I don't deny that. But it is still the most expressive instrument I have played. Modeled pianos are the future. Sampling is at the limit of development and it will slowly be replaced by modeling. The midrange issues will be solved.

We are all hyper-critical...we should expect this I suppose as most normal people would not be motivated to take part in this forum...normal people have lives and don't get bogged down in mind-numbing details. The very people that say the V-Piano is inadequate would pick a brand new Steinway to death.

Yamaha were obviously caught out by the V-Piano and they have launched what looks like some decent stage pianos but the technology is yesterday's...all covered up with marketing nonsense and acronyms and fancy cryptic abbreviations to distract attention from the fact that it is just another stage piano with four or five sample layers. Yawn.

Roland were obviously caught out with the introduction of the Avant Grand, as they have nothing to compare with it. As I said, the V-Piano feels like every other high end Roland instrument...the Avant Grand feels nothing like any other digital piano...it is on a whole new level.

The new CP-series is modeling plus sampling, obviously the ideal method till someone manages to get modeling down right...it sure ain't Roland, as we speak, but that may change, although Pianoteq has been whacking away at it longer than the former, and they haven't quite got the right formula either.

Just like the old synthesizers that finally ended up having to augment sampling with synthesis to make realistic acoustic representations...(in fact, Roland were among the first to embrace this concept with their D-50), it is highly likely that modeling instruments may have to take the same path.

The people at Yamaha are no fools...they have had modeling from way back with the VL-1 synth, so they do know a thing or three about it...hence the hybrid CP-1/5/50.

Modeling has a way to go, and may never get there...until that happens, hybrids (sampling + modeling) will rule the roost.

Snazzy

Snazzy, I think you are grossly overstating the role modeling plays in Yamaha's new CP pianos. The acoustic sound will be sampled, probably with the addition of some modeled elements...pedal sounds or resonance. That's my guess anyway. Your point about the Avant Grand is fair enough but I don't think Roland have been caught out by something they probably have no intention of making themselves. You might expect me to stick to my point, which you don't address...and that is the tonal response of an instrument to velocity change. The Avant Grand is a sampled piano that buzzes but that is not tonal change, albeit I don't doubt it adds to the sensation of playing an acoustic piano.

You have spent a fortune on your Avant Grand. I have spent a slightly smaller fortune on my V-Piano. I am happy to admit my ego needs to justify my choice so I will defend the V-Piano. But I really do think it is a better instrument than any other electronic piano I have played. If anyone's interested, the second best is my Roland RD-1000...modeled Structured Adaptive Synthesis from 1986...expressive and emotional BUT NOTHING LIKE A PIANO. Its lack of piano-ness does not detract at all from its ability as a method of musical expression. That is the point to me...expression, not a quest for an exact sonic replica of a piano pursued with an almost religious zeal. One day we will have what we want, our DPs will SOUND and PLAY just as we might wish but until that day I will choose an instrument that PLAYS the most responsively.

Steve

Steve,

I have a 20 year old HP-1700 using the same SAS as your RD-1000....yes, I like it a lot...very expressive, especially the electric pianos.

I don't think I'm overstating Yamaha's hybrid modeling plus sampling...it's obviously the right solution to the failings of pure modeling.

I do, however, know what a joy it is to play the Avant Grand, the only digital with soul, in my opinion.

I've had lots of digital pianos, more than I want to admit, but the Avant Grand is far beyond anything I've owned, or anything I've tried, including some quality time on the V-Piano.

The latter has no tactile feedback...nada..it feels like any other digital that uses the same action...it sounds very good, except for the middle, where most people play, but it still is no different than hooking up a quality weighted graded hammer action controller to a PC with Pianoteq...that's old news....really it is.

I have a good suspicion that these new Yamaha's are going to raise the bar for stage pianos. I doubt if they'll impress you enough to get one, but for those of us who were underwhelmed by the V-Piano, they will be worth a look, for sure.

Snazzy

No, no, no! There are no sample layers in these new stage pianos! That much is clearly spelled out in Yamaha's CP1/5/50 product brochure:

Rather than multi-velocity layers of samples, SCM uses granular parametric data...

Well, they are probably extracting the data from a multi-velocity set and interpolating in the spectral domain via FFT or DCT.

So I'd say yes and no. Yes to there being layers somewhere, even if reduced algorithmically. Probably no to audible layer switching, though I would need to spend some time with one and my MIDI sequencer to be sure.

Steve,

Yes the Avant Grand is a sampled piano...but I really don't give a hoot what layers respond to what velocity...the instrument quite obviously provides the player with the experience of playing an acoustic grand piano better than any other digital piano.

I love playing acoustic piano, but I don't love tuning. I had a CP-80 for years...same thing...tuning.

The Avant Grand really isn't meant to compared to the V-Piano, because it is in a different category altogether....it plays like an acoustic...it fills the room like an acoustic...it sounds like a CFIII Concert Grand...it has tactile feedback.

It wasn't a lot of money, considering what it does and how it makes a piano player feel when playing it...a good grand piano costs far more.

I already have a great grand piano with the Steinway B...I just want one without needing to tune it....I have found what I was looking for.

Snazzy

I hope you are right, but I don't understand what you are basing your claim on - at this point. What instrument have you played that is a combination of sampling + modeling that is so wonderful? Why is Yamaha's hybrid modeling plus sampling the "obviously the right solution to the failings of pure modeling"?

Until we've had a chance to PLAY the C1, I don't see how the playability can be assume to be wonderful. Heck, it is even sporting an new keyboard action, which makes the playability an even less known factor.

And as to the sound, there are very good examples of what it sounds like, as far as the acoustic pianos are concerned.

So, spill it. Are you basing your assessment on a particular instrument or instruments, or is this just wishful thinking at this point?

I'm just doing like all the other "experts", Lawrence...basing my opinion on what was said during the on-line videos, and listening to the piano being played.

I'm impressed that they would finally go to an all-wood action, and from what I heard, I'm thinking the sampling is supplemented by modeling, but, we each can't totally be sure until more is revealed by Yamaha or a third party, or we actually get to play one.

My opinions on the V-Piano, Pianoteq, and the Avant Grand are based on experience.

The ones on the the CP-1 probably lean more towards hope right now, as it would be nice to get a stage piano that has both killer acoustic and electric pianos.

Snazzy

So we agree that it all comes down to personal taste/choice in sounds.

I played the V-Piano (admittedly for only 45 minutes), and what I heard was a reincarnation of my current Roland KR7. The bass underwhelmed me, and the rest was "so Roland" that if it wasn't for the absolutely gorgeous keys, I would have sworn I was sitting at the KR7 (or the KR107 ten feet away in the showroom - jeez, maybe I was at the KR107 ).

My KR7 is definitely not a low or medium priced piano - however for the piano sound I got, it should have been.

At the price point of these "new" Rolands and Yamahas, we won't have to worry about playing barefoot.

Glenn

PS: I can't say that the new Avant Grand won't blow socks off - haven't seen one or heard one yet. From what I've read here, it's quite an instrument. But for the last few months, I've not seen any ravings about the V-Piano. A lack of someone raving about it tends to tell me something is lacking.

On the Pianoteq forum, one user has a V-Piano and he submitted some mp3 files along with his midi files. The sound from the V wasn't raved about by anyone.

I spent more than a few hours on the V-Piano...luckily I have a buddy who owns a store and after hours is no problem.

It almost seemed to me that they are mimicking everything that their present digitals have...the thinness of the samples staring at A under middle C, up to the D or E above, I can't exactly remember...but I do remember several people remarking like you did..it sounded like a Roland.

Like my Canadian clinician buddy Ian, always says, "You have to like what comes out of your speakers, regardless of the brand. It has to please the ear and the senses...it sometimes is hard to put into words."

Yamaha tends to be bright punchy, and Roland tends to be rounder and less sparkly (actually, very reminiscent of my Steinway B)...we all have a sound that defines "piano" in our heads....Yamaha does it for me. so far....that could change.

What irked me about the V-Piano, supposedly being a stage/studio instrument, was lack of Rhodes sounds(which Roland does very well, by the way) and lack of controller features....for the price, those are pretty noticeable things to leave off.

The new CP-1 pianos are a little more than halfway there...and at least they gave e.pianos and controller features, albeit only one wheel(what were they thinking?).

Snazzy

I agree about the single wheel. Huh? And if you for some bizarre reason could only have one wheel, surely a mod wheel would be more useful.

I guess none of the engineers or marketing wizards are actually musicians.

Maybe the wheel is assignable, but that still isn't ideal. My CP-300 has two wheels, and very good ones at that.

The CP-1's keybed doesn't have aftertouch either...my old Yamaha KX-88 had weighted and aftertouch...it can't be that hard to implement.

I'm in agreement that sometimes it's engineer's wishes over musician's needs, though I remember playing one of Yamaha's first Midi-Grand Pianos...an actual grand with Midi and with pitch and mod wheels no less...cool! It still went out of tune...bummer!

Snazzy

I have to agree. They are NOT using velocity layers.

What this means is that they have chopped up the sound samples using a different method. For example they have a sample of the fundamental and a sample of the overtones and these are mixed in proportion to the key velocity and the proportion is also allowed to vary over time as the note sustains. I think it is more complex than that but my point is that it is still sample based but controlled by a empirically derived performance model. This is a lot different from a Pianoteq-like physical model

The real different is that the components of the key sample are not velocity layers

But all this is based on reading between the lines of very sparse text.