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#1332888 - 12/24/09 08:09 AM SSN Deal Breaker
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2327
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
I went across to USA with a friend to look at a 100 Y/O Chickering grand piano for assesment prior to him buying it.
The piano had ivory keys and in order to ship it across to Canada, paperwork was required to be filled in with the (US)Federal Fish and Wildlife Service.
Part of the requirements were getting the seller's SSN on the form and the seller, a young woman, refused to give her SSN for this purpose. The deal did not go through because of this and my friend was pretty upset.

Would this be simply a case of the seller being somewhat paranoid, or do American's protect their SSN to the extent they are not even comfortable putting it on a government document? I suppose in the future it would make sense to ask the seller first to avoid the wasted time and expense, live and learn I guess.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1332935 - 12/24/09 09:51 AM Re: SSN Deal Breaker [Re: Emmery]
David Jenson Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 1947
Loc: Maine
Yes, the seller is somewhat paranoid. A government form is where a SSN is appropriate, but with all the scare stories about identity theft, it's not surprising that she's spooked.
_________________________
David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
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#1332948 - 12/24/09 10:22 AM Re: SSN Deal Breaker [Re: David Jenson]
Jeff Clef Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 4393
Loc: San Jose, CA
You know, I wouldn't trivialize those "scare stories" so much. It's big trouble, and a time-consuming and expensive mess. Even some government agencies have moved to other methods of identification than the SSN. For example, my FCC and CDL licenses have non-SSN identifiers these days.

If this is a tax document, there may be no way around it. But I don't have a problem with saying the words, "Sorry, but I don't give it out."

I am sorry the sale fell through, though. What Fish and Wildlife has to do with a piano, I can't imagine, unless maybe it's a matter of the ivory keytops... in that case, shipping it across an international border, you might expect some trouble.
_________________________
Clef


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#1332952 - 12/24/09 10:31 AM Re: SSN Deal Breaker [Re: Emmery]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4182
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada

Hey Emmery,

We were having a chat about Chickering pianos recently; I wondered when you were going to inspect that one. Was it similar to the pictures of Chickering’s that we discussed? It reads like everything checked out ok on the instrument ........ The only thing to block the sale was the completion of the documents for the ivory set. That is too bad indeed, but let your customer know that there will be other Chickering instruments coming available for sale. This was a very popular American make.

On another un-related note, it was good to meet you a couple of weeks ago when you were in town and my wife and I were happy that you had time for us to show you around some of Vancouver.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1332967 - 12/24/09 11:04 AM Re: SSN Deal Breaker [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2327
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Jeff, the forms are indeed because of the ivory key tops, if they are not completed then the piano will be sitting at the border with the moving truck idling while they produce more documents to tell you to return it. I suppose its possible that the piano could also be seized, with the heavy handed powers that be.

I'm not complaining about the permits since they basically document that the ivory was on the piano before 1976 when I presume the elephants and their ivory became protected. It would be nice if they found a way around the SSN issue, surely there are other ways to prove you are a resident of the US without disclosing this sensitive info.

Dan, I took pics of the piano and it was very similar to the one you restored a while back that you have pictures of. The legs had raised scallops instead of flutes and the soundboard had a few small cracks running parrallel to the edge of the bridge in the center section. Downbearing was still decent and no buzzes. Ribs were intact with SB and edge of case and only a few bridge pins at the end of the treble splitting the wood. Action had the silk loop holding the butterfly spring and the hammer and wippen flanges were attached to a 1/8" thick raised cloth material (or cloth covered wood) rail. Couldn't pull the action out very far because the piano was shoe horned into a corner and weighed half a ton.

I fished out a broken bass hammer and interestingly enough it had stamped on the side of the felt around the moulding..."Made in Germany". Did Chickering import hammers in the early 1900's, or is this indicative of a later installment? They did look as old and yellowed as the rest of the felts so I figured original.

Vancouver and your hospitality was great Dan, I now know where to get "authentic" chinese food. Thanks again.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1333022 - 12/24/09 12:35 PM Re: SSN Deal Breaker [Re: Emmery]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4182
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Originally Posted By: Emmery

I fished out a broken bass hammer and interestingly enough it had stamped on the side of the felt around the moulding..."Made in Germany". Did Chickering import hammers in the early 1900's, or is this indicative of a later installment? They did look as old and yellowed as the rest of the felts so I figured original.


The thin cracks running parallel to the treble bridge,........looks like the crown in the board was beginning to flatten out a bit.

The Weikert (now Wurzen) felt hammer was made for Bohne & Co. This was a Canadian company that made piano hammers until 1964. A LOT of companies purchased these hammer sets for use in higher end instruments. There must have been American piano hammer makers that used the same felt, because I just checked the old hammer set that came off the Chickering here and one of the hammers has the Weikert crest and states made in Germany. I just can’t locate the Bohne & Co. stamp.....so maybe another local(North American) hammer maker for that time period.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1333064 - 12/24/09 01:38 PM Re: SSN Deal Breaker [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Larry Buck Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 2313
Loc: Lowell MA
It is always possible to have the person in the US sell the piano to another person in the US who is then willing to participate in a proper sale across the Canadian/USA border.

And ... My understanding is that the Wurtzen and the Weikert are two different types of felt.
Did I miss the "Memo"?
_________________________
Has Anyone Seen My Glasses ?

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
www.finepianodevelopment.com

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#1333202 - 12/24/09 04:41 PM Re: SSN Deal Breaker [Re: Larry Buck]
Gene Nelson Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 1429
Loc: Old Hangtown California
The SSN was never intended to be an identification number or national id but it has moved in that direction because many people will surrender it without question - this seller would not.
I do not see it as paranoia - more like a principle thing.
Putting the SSN on a government form should not be reason to suspect identity theft and you would think that a valid id like driver license would be good enough.
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PTG Member

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#1333290 - 12/24/09 07:49 PM Re: SSN Deal Breaker [Re: Larry Buck]
Olek Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6330
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Larry Buck
It is always possible to have the person in the US sell the piano to another person in the US who is then willing to participate in a proper sale across the Canadian/USA border.

And ... My understanding is that the Wurtzen and the Weikert are two different types of felt.
Did I miss the "Memo"?


Weickert is the old name of the hammer felt made by the Wurzen felt factory, widely used on the best instruments and for a very long time sicne the sovetic period.

The actual Wurzen felt is based on the same recipe (wool fiber mix and quality) and process (long fulling with secret trick), but indeed with more modern machinery for what I know.

There are at last 3 qualities intended for vertical pianos, standard grand and an "extra" quality named "AA" while may be some other have been produced lately.
Other goodies are made, as bushing cloth, front punchings, different cushions and felts.

They say that the best felt is not tinted, and that moisture is the enemy of felt (while used in the process to make it) hence my early stop with the vapor voicing on good hammers.
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#1333299 - 12/24/09 08:14 PM Re: SSN Deal Breaker [Re: Olek]
gerg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/02/07
Posts: 1651
Loc: Houston, TX
From the testimony, the seller was completely reasonable. There is no reason for her to divulge this bit of personal information over a private transaction. There is no reason for the government to be involved in this case. Your friend is correct to be angry. However, rather than (as seems to be the norm these days) assuming that the U.S. government is as pure as the wind-driven snow and that your friend's seller is somehow to blame for having the audacity, the temerity to want to preserve her privacy (after all, a blessed Marxist is in control!), please ascribe this to yet another asinine and ridiculous instance of government intrusion into private commerce. Oppressive government regulation is the appropriate object of anger in this case. There is no logical reason, in the mind of sane people anyways, why "da gubmint" should have any say beyond the matter of international commerce.

7.62

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#1333302 - 12/24/09 08:24 PM Re: SSN Deal Breaker [Re: gerg]
Michael Darnton Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/17/09
Posts: 243
Loc: Chicago
Never mind..... can't teach a rock to think.


Edited by Michael Darnton (12/24/09 08:32 PM)
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#1333304 - 12/24/09 08:35 PM Re: SSN Deal Breaker [Re: Michael Darnton]
Larry Buck Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 2313
Loc: Lowell MA
Is the piano in question currently in New York? And would it be crossing the border to Canada from New York?

Ronsen sells Weikert and Wurtzen as two different products.

I have personally used both and I find them very different. Kamin, do you think Ronsen could more properly name their felt?
_________________________
Has Anyone Seen My Glasses ?

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
www.finepianodevelopment.com

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#1333305 - 12/24/09 08:36 PM Re: SSN Deal Breaker [Re: Michael Darnton]
gerg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/02/07
Posts: 1651
Loc: Houston, TX
Yes, I believe Bamster Boy is a Marxist who has never worked a day in his life in the private sector.

I have socialist friend at work. He seems to believe one should do the same thing day after day, with no hope of improvement, no hope of advancement. This seems to be the Communist model. Ayn Rand (herself a refugee from communism) describes in "Atlas Shrugs" how the State would assign a "job" for a person, without regard to their gifts and skills.

Laugh all you want, but please get over the R- vs. D- stuff, which only illustrates your own naïvete. You are posting on PW which, I've come to learn, is a metric in favor of your intelligence. The ideological war in America today, of which the anecdote of the OP is evidence, runs far deeper than that. Don't be naïve.

(And, a blessed Christmas to you. If it does not offend you, I will drink to your good health.)

smile

Edit: "Can't teach a rock to think" is not the post to which I responded. I nonetheless drink to your good health! smile


Edited by gerg (12/24/09 08:37 PM)
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#1333331 - 12/24/09 10:47 PM Re: SSN Deal Breaker [Re: gerg]
Zeno Wood Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/20/07
Posts: 427
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
is this appropriate for this forum?
_________________________
Zeno Wood, Piano Technician
Brooklyn College

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#1333357 - 12/24/09 11:56 PM Re: SSN Deal Breaker [Re: Zeno Wood]
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5480
i believe you can get around the ivory keys issue by removing the ivory key tops and sending them home through the mail, then glue them back on once the piano arrives in canada. i don't know if that is legal, but i do know of people who have done it that way.

i don't give out my SS# either. i don't think that is paranoid at all. there's lots of good reasons to not let other people know that information. more and more agencies are issuing non-SS#s for things like driver's licenses because of legitimate fears of identity theft.

i thought it was tobacco and firearms that governed the movement of ivory in and out of the u.s.?
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#1333367 - 12/25/09 12:49 AM Re: SSN Deal Breaker [Re: piqué]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3666
Loc: North Carolina
This whole thing has me wondering why there's any need for the buyer to provide **any** identification. Isn't it the obligation of the **seller** to prove that the ivory meets legal requirements? If so, why does the **buyer** need to be involved in the legal entangelements?

Maybe the answer is "that's just the law, like it or not". Does anyone know?

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#1333384 - 12/25/09 01:46 AM Re: SSN Deal Breaker [Re: MacMacMac]
Gene Nelson Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 1429
Loc: Old Hangtown California
Aparently the US Fish and Wildlife Service works with 100 or more other nations under the international trade on endangered species agreement.
Cooperating countries require permits for international trade.
Elephant ivory or whale teeth would require permit under the agreement because they are considered endangered species.
How would a buyer or seller know what sort of bone (if it is bone) covers their keys? Walrus tusk or other types of bone are not on the list that I can see.
Still cannot understand the SSN requirement. Not required for voting.
I think someone has their priorities mixed up.
_________________________
RPT
PTG Member

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#1333390 - 12/25/09 02:12 AM Re: SSN Deal Breaker [Re: Gene Nelson]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 20741
Loc: Oakland
The social security number is used for identification by the Treasury Department, which had been in charge of customs. It is under Homeland Security now, which probably still uses the same identification, particularly since there are still tariff considerations.
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Semipro Tech

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#1333392 - 12/25/09 02:21 AM Re: SSN Deal Breaker [Re: Zeno Wood]
gerg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/02/07
Posts: 1651
Loc: Houston, TX
Yes, I think so.

However, most people are rational. The goal is to solve a particular problem - how to send a piano with ivory keys from a U.S. seller to a Canadian buyer - and we have a few excellent responses to that end.
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#1333396 - 12/25/09 02:34 AM Re: SSN Deal Breaker [Re: piqué]
gerg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/02/07
Posts: 1651
Loc: Houston, TX
i don't give out my SS# either Nor shoud you, Pique. That is private to you - whether you are selling a piano with ivory keys or otherwise.
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Wikicital: A collaborative effort to build a knowledgebase of classical music history combined with examples. Your chance to both perform and write...

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#1333491 - 12/25/09 09:45 AM Re: SSN Deal Breaker [Re: gerg]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2327
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Yes, the piano is in NY state and would have came to Canada through customs.

Gerg, if you don't give out you SS#, especially to your own government, what purpose does it serve you...might as well tatoo it under your hair and throw your card away? I'm sure there are still other things it is absolutely required for such as a passport, getting social assistance/ drivers licence ect...no?

I appreciate the responses to this and have come to the conclusion that there are mixed feelings and a 50/50 split on revealing this number to the government. I guess the seller didn't regard the sale of the piano as important as protecting her privacy. She lost the deal, and if she calls the potential buyer back to say she changed her mind she will be told to "go to H E double hockey sticks".

I think that when there is a stringent required proof of identity on government forms it is usually because someone commited fraud or took advantage of the system in the past and the govt. is just tightening the loop holes.



Edited by Emmery (12/25/09 09:47 AM)
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1333561 - 12/25/09 12:48 PM Re: SSN Deal Breaker [Re: Emmery]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4182
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Originally Posted By: Emmery
I think that when there is a stringent required proof of identity on government forms it is usually because someone commited fraud or took advantage of the system in the past and the govt. is just tightening the loop holes.


And not just the governments of this continent. Gene is correct; the agreement to discontinue the use of ivory was established on an international level and the purpose was to prevent the poaching of these large mammals for their ivory only, to be sold on the black market. Preventing the use of ivory for musical instruments has helped to stem the flow of illegal ivory word wide but has not prevented it entirely. So the agreement was put in place, not to demonstrate government interference with open markets, but to regulate an un-regulated part of business that steadfastly refused to cooperate on its own. What this has to do with someone being a Marxist or not simply escapes me.

Very similar to the recent worldwide diamond issue that spawned the movie Blood Diamond. That is a situation which produced another worldwide agreement of cooperation between nations.

As I stated earlier, pass this one by Emmery, if the seller does not have a desire to cooperate with the requirements of selling this instrument internationally, and then move to the next instrument.

In reality though if you think it through, she could have filled out the documents on her own, sent them to the government on her own, notified you of confirmation that the government service received the documents, and then you could have made arrangements for payment and transport.

Also she could have taken ID from both of you…………if suddenly there was an instance of identity theft for her……………it would have not been too difficult to figure out who it was. International agreements are in place for this type of crime too I believe….. or perhaps coming to your neighbourhood soon.
_________________________
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www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1333608 - 12/25/09 01:55 PM Re: SSN Deal Breaker [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Gene Nelson Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 1429
Loc: Old Hangtown California
Sorry for getting a little OT here - but:
In regard to diamonds, there is one big company that controlls the trade worldwide, sanctioned by the agreeing governments. If it were unregulated the market would be flooded and the the stone and the value would fall to about the same as glass.
My interpretation of the related movie was that the practice of regulating the stones keeps the price up, the stones artifically scarce and slavery in tact.
_________________________
RPT
PTG Member

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#1333752 - 12/25/09 08:36 PM Re: SSN Deal Breaker [Re: Gene Nelson]
Larry Buck Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 2313
Loc: Lowell MA
The other part, perhaps already mentioned would be any taxes/duty paid to Canada.
New York is a particularly strong at enforcing tax laws for their revenue.

I can see that the one identification means most reliable would be a SSN.

Certainly, this issue can be checked through the US and Canadian Customs.

If the US and Canadian governments are enforcing this issue then, well, that IS what would be required.

Of course, none of us give out our SSN number thoughtlessly. That is a given.

There are people whose business it is to facilitate transactions such as this and although I could not speak for them, I would guess they would process a transaction such as that for a very small fee. Worthwhile I am sure.

I am afraid I can not comment on the rest of this thread.
_________________________
Has Anyone Seen My Glasses ?

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
www.finepianodevelopment.com

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#1333850 - 12/25/09 11:46 PM Re: SSN Deal Breaker [Re: Larry Buck]
Sam Casey Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/05
Posts: 1135
Loc: SW Missouri
Hmmm. If I get this straight:

Ivory is subject to international agreement to restrict illegal trafficing of endangered species.

Piano has ivory so an identification trail is required to verify origin, regardless of how old the piano or age of ivory keys. (I would assume the same would be for ivory veneered chests, oriental screens and scrimshaw.)

Customer does not wish to divulge SS # for reasons unkhown, ergo sale is undone.

And it is in the end a Maxist plot reaching to the highest level of the American government.

"Truth is stranger than Fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilites; Truth isnt." Mark Twain

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#1333937 - 12/26/09 03:57 AM Re: SSN Deal Breaker [Re: Sam Casey]
Olek Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6330
Loc: France
You forget David Vincent, Sam, but I heard of a grand piano where the customs took off all ivories, probably because they fear of a traffic !!

On another one, a technician had to come by to make that himself.

I trace it to a global hate of musicians in some administrations !
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