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Topic Options
#1285545 - 10/12/09 03:24 PM Re: Tunelab or Verituner? [Re: johnlewisgrant]
JBE Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/17/09
Posts: 377
Loc: USA
That is correct. IMO and from experience the VT box does a better job of this than VT Pocket.

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#1285649 - 10/12/09 06:14 PM Re: Tunelab or Verituner? [Re: JBE]
Jeff A. Smith, RPT Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/01/03
Posts: 476
Loc: Angola, Indiana USA
Hi Byron,

Do you have and use both? I'm wondering what you think of the pocket version's display. Is it more stable than the box's?

What kind of differences have you noticed in the tunings you get from each?

Thanks,

Jeff
_________________________
Jeff A. Smith
Registered Piano Technician
Indiana, USA

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#1285811 - 10/13/09 12:18 AM Re: Tunelab or Verituner? [Re: Jeff A. Smith, RPT]
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1579
Loc: Chicagoland
The ppc has a smoothing function for the spinner and seems to react a little quicker. Even though it is smaller, it seems clearer to me. I use both. The box stays at school and the ppc travels to all my outside tunings.

Honestly, I prefer the ppc with the ease of file function and screen taps over the buttons on the box. I haven't spent a lot of time trying to see if they calculate the same tunings. I do remember Dave Carpenter telling me he was trying to decide what to leave out in the ppc version because it couldn't quite do everything the box did... I did try a slower ppc first and it wasn't up to the task (dell x5) It left a lot of partials out - and that's one of the big reasons to use Verituner - the multi-partial approach to tuning! Any machine that runs at 624Mhz (I think) does just fine.


Ron Koval
chicagoland
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


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#1285813 - 10/13/09 12:23 AM Re: Tunelab or Verituner? [Re: Jeff A. Smith, RPT]
JBE Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/17/09
Posts: 377
Loc: USA
I started with the box years ago and have always been very very happy with the tunings. I bought a SAT III several years ago as a back up but loved it so much that I started to use it more. A year or so ago I bought VT Pocket thinking it would be as good as the box but soon realized that I didn't like the results as much as the box.

I've found the display to be the same as the VT100 but the VT100 for me does a much better, more accurate tuning. I actually use the SAT III most of the time now anyway. I love the speed of the SAT III, the durability and long battery life. I use the VT100 once in a while for certain situations like where a one pass tuning is necessary.

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#1285907 - 10/13/09 05:45 AM Re: Tunelab or Verituner? [Re: JBE]
Gregor Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 431
Loc: Münster, Germany
Why should the VT box bring other results than the ppc version - aside from using an underpowerd ppc?

I downloaded the tunelab demo version and compared the results with the VT ppc version. I like the Verituner results much more. With Tunelab even the octave A3-A4 was too narrow for my ears and for the VT as well with 2 pianos (a Kawai CX5 and a Wendl & Lung 122). Within the temperament the differences between both systems were up to 1.8 cents. On a Grotrian upright (110 cm) both systems were quite identical in the temperament.

Gregor
_________________________
piano tech - tuner - dealer
Münster, Germany
www.weldert.de

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#1285920 - 10/13/09 06:50 AM Re: Tunelab or Verituner? [Re: RonTuner]
Cashley Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/16/09
Posts: 530
How is the customer service of VT ?

Do they normally reply to emails ? After more than 48 hours, I'm still waiting for VT to reply my email.

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#1286330 - 10/13/09 06:09 PM Re: Tunelab or Verituner? [Re: Cashley]
JBE Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/17/09
Posts: 377
Loc: USA
The customer service has always been very good when I've needed it in the past.

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#1286377 - 10/13/09 08:27 PM Re: Tunelab or Verituner? [Re: JBE]
johnlewisgrant Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/17/07
Posts: 394
Loc: canada
Another thought.... I wonder whether or not Tunelab can be used (by the novice one-piano-tuner who just wants to keep his own piano in perfect tune ALL the time) in a manner that emulates Verituner? Inotherwords, I wonder whether by taking inharmonicity measurments for each note just prior to tuning it (just an example of a potential methodology) one could, in effect, produce individualized tunings for each note using Tunelab?

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#1286406 - 10/13/09 09:58 PM Re: Tunelab or Verituner? [Re: johnlewisgrant]
RPD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/07/05
Posts: 961
Loc: Kalamazoo Michigan
So Bill...I just realized I'm reading this from wayyyyy back in 2004.

What platform are you using today??

RPD
_________________________
MPT(Master Piano Technicians of America)
Member AMICA (Automated Musical Instruments Collector's Association)
(Subscriber PTG Journal)
Piano-Tuner-Rebuilder/Musician www.actionpianoservice.com

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#1286421 - 10/13/09 10:30 PM Re: Tunelab or Verituner? [Re: RPD]
Gadzar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1432
Loc: Mexico City
johngrant,

For what I know, Tunelab uses information of measured iH to calculate a tuning curve. It is necessary to measure four notes to give the program the needed information and if you measure more than four notes the curve will be basically the same. So it is useless to measure more than a few notes.

Maybe Robert Scott can enlighten us about this.


About the PPC version of Verituner, I regret that "interval tuning" is not included in PPCVT. I have sent several mails to Dave Carpenter and it seems he's not going to include "interval tuning" for PPC version because he says "it is seldom used on VT100"
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1286658 - 10/14/09 08:39 AM Re: Tunelab or Verituner? [Re: Gadzar]
Cashley Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/16/09
Posts: 530
Originally Posted By: Gadzar
I have sent several mails to Dave Carpenter and it seems he's not going to include "interval tuning" for PPC version because he says "it is seldom used on VT100"


Can VT's Dave confirm if you happen to be reading this ? The VT's webpage says both Spectrum Display and Interval Tuning will be available as FREE upgrade.


Edited by Cashley (10/14/09 08:41 AM)

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#1296096 - 10/29/09 02:44 PM Re: Tunelab or Verituner? [Re: Cashley]
Kaydee7 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 14
Loc: The 'Couve wa.
just to chime in on an old thread ... just got the SAT IV, should make life interesting... soon to have a SAT II for sale.
more later

73'
kd7
mark
_________________________
No trees were killed in the sending of this message, But a large Number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
Flickr
Collins

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#1296354 - 10/29/09 10:35 PM Re: Tunelab or Verituner? [Re: Kaydee7]
JBE Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/17/09
Posts: 377
Loc: USA
That's great. Let us know how the SAT IV works out. It's been hard to find any reviews on it. Are there any SAT users out there that would like to give it a review? From what I've read it's basically the same except for the shell.

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#1296378 - 10/29/09 11:49 PM Re: Tunelab or Verituner? [Re: JBE]
dherbon Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 37
Loc: Iowa
I used a SAT, for 3 years, and the VT for three years. For me there is no comparison. I my opinion, the VT is superior. The display is more informative and easier to read than the SAT. Tuning the extreme octaves is much easier with the VT. False beats are easier to read and adjust with the VT. I have been using Ron Koval's new styles on my VT and the results have been great. A number of compliments from my home and school customers. The VT is much more flexible than the SAT. For doing basic tuning the Sat was fine, but with wide pitch changes and the ability to adjust the tunings as you go, the VT is the most advanced unit out. Cost was worth it.

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#1296568 - 10/30/09 10:38 AM Re: Tunelab or Verituner? [Re: dherbon]
JBE Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/17/09
Posts: 377
Loc: USA
Does Tunelab work well on the ipaq 110/111? It is not mentioned on the Tunlab site as a recommended computer so I e-mailed them a while back and was told that it should work. The word should gave me pause to try it.

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#1296806 - 10/30/09 05:33 PM Re: Tunelab or Verituner? [Re: JBE]
RoyP Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 783
Loc: Cincinnati, Ohio
I run Tunelab on an iPaq 210 and it works great. It doesn't lock up like it did on my old iPaq. I use to have to reset on a regular basis. Not on this one. The 210 has a bigger, higher resolution screen than the 110, if memory serves. When I inquired about the Verituner Pocket version, they said that it would work on the 210, but would run better on the 110. I assume that is because the display on the 210 eats up more system resources. So, in short, I think that Tunelab would run fine on the 110, maybe even better than it does on the 210.
_________________________
Roy Peters, RPT
Cincinnati, Ohio
Live Performance LX Installation
www.cincypiano.com

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#1297171 - 10/31/09 11:46 AM Re: Tunelab or Verituner? [Re: RPD]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3036
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: RPD
So Bill...I just realized I'm reading this from wayyyyy back in 2004.

What platform are you using today??

RPD


I had not been participating or even reading this thread because for me, it was a moot point. I ultimately took Tom the Tuner's suggestion and bought an SAT III in early 2005, so I have been using that for nearly 5 years.

That being said, I am somewhat interested in getting an SAT IV as my primary device and if I can find a really good pocket device that has enough capacity, I would install the software for the three other programs. Then, I would have it all and be able to use each to its own unique advantages when that opportunity presents itself.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1297673 - 11/01/09 11:08 AM Re: Tunelab or Verituner? [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Daryl Durand Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/17/09
Posts: 419
Loc: Missouri USA
I've been using the VT100 since it came out and really like the machine. The only problem is there hasn't been any updates for it for years. I've heard that Tunelab can do a pitch raise without mutes. Has anyone here in the forum used
Tunelab for this pupose?
_________________________
Daryl Durand, RPT
Durand Piano Service
http://www.durandpiano.com

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#1297685 - 11/01/09 11:57 AM Re: Tunelab or Verituner? [Re: Jeff A. Smith, RPT]
JBE Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/17/09
Posts: 377
Loc: USA
I'm currently in the process of getting to the bottom of the issue with different calculated tunings. I still have VT Pocket installed on an iPaq 111. Other techicicans find that it does as good a job as the VT 100. I've adjusted the microphone gain up a notch again on the ppc and changed the needle graphics. I may need to reinstall the program or something. Or send the whole thing in to Veritune to have it checked out by them. I'll do some more side by side comparisons with VT 100 and VT Pocket.

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#1297691 - 11/01/09 12:03 PM Re: Tunelab or Verituner? [Re: Daryl Durand]
JBE Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/17/09
Posts: 377
Loc: USA
A colleague of mine uses Tunelab. I've tuned once with it and it's a great device. He finds it very easy to tune the upper treble by using the mute-less pitch raise method. You can visually read each string at the same time.

Ron Koval has a short YouTube video where he uses Tunelab.

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#1297799 - 11/01/09 03:25 PM Re: Tunelab or Verituner? [Re: JBE]
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1579
Loc: Chicagoland
One of my youtube vids (link at the bottom of this message) goes over a muteless pitch raise using tunelab. (wow, I haven't added any vids in a loooong time! Gotta get goin' again...

Ron Koval
chicagoland
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


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#1297894 - 11/01/09 07:25 PM Re: Tunelab or Verituner? [Re: RonTuner]
RoyP Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 783
Loc: Cincinnati, Ohio
I have a friend who owns both VT100 and VT Pocket. He says that he gets more complete readings of partials with the box. So what he does, on pianos he sees regularly, is to take readings with the box, save them to the computer, and then load them onto the iPaq. I think that he got the VT100 first, but now uses the iPaq most of the time.

I have to say that like Bill I am tempted by the SAT IV. It looks like one rugged unit. The thing is that these Pocket PC's only last a couple of years for me on average. In about 8 years, I'm on my 4th one. Eventually something happens if you use it every day. Now that I use a Blackberry, many of the PDA functions are redundant (although it is nice to have the backup along). Alot of the attraction of the PPC was that it was such a versatile tool, in addition to being a tuning device. Now that's not so important. The SAT IV looks like the kind of machine you could still be using in ten or twenty years, even if you are rough on it. So, basically, if and when this iPaq gives up, I might just switch. Hopefully it will be a while.
_________________________
Roy Peters, RPT
Cincinnati, Ohio
Live Performance LX Installation
www.cincypiano.com

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#1297940 - 11/01/09 08:57 PM Re: Tunelab or Verituner? [Re: RonTuner]
Cashley Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/16/09
Posts: 530
Do you have any vids on tuning using a VT ?

I've fiddled with the tunelab trial version, and I found it to be sensitive in the sense that it's not easy to get to the 'zero' point. I wonder if the VT shares similar characteristic.

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#1298122 - 11/02/09 08:39 AM Re: Tunelab or Verituner? [Re: Cashley]
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1579
Loc: Chicagoland
Some of the vids show the VT - in fact I got started with the videos from questions on the Verituner forum - "how is it possible to tune and pitch raise under two or three hours?!?" That 6-parter on youtube shows just that using the Verituner creating a new file. Most of the videos are pretty rough quality - both audio and visual. I'm trying to come up with better quality for the next group...

The pocket pc version has a smoothing function that can be applied to stabilize the needle or spinner. It helps a lot. The box seems to be a little better at auto-note-switching in the upper ranges, but the needle and spinner can "dance" around a bit, depending on the piano.


Ron Koval
chicagoland
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


Top
#1298126 - 11/02/09 08:45 AM Re: Tunelab or Verituner? [Re: RonTuner]
Cashley Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/16/09
Posts: 530
I'm keen on a PPC version but there are 2 functions still missing from the PPC version as mentioned in VT's website - spectrum display and direct intervals tuning. Although it'll be made available as free downloads at a later stage, it still isn't available and there is no guarantee that it will be made available eventually, or how soon ?

Can you think of any other PPC that can run VT other than the miserable iPAQ ? VT seems to prefer a QVGA to a full VGA. What is the reason when VGA is clearly a more expensive option and produces better pixels.

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#1334045 - 12/26/09 11:32 AM Re: Tunelab or Verituner? [Re: Cashley]
johnlewisgrant Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/17/07
Posts: 394
Loc: canada
I'm not a pro-tuner; so you may wish to take my observations with a grain of salt. I spent a lot of money on the vt program, because I like my piano to be perfectly in tune all the time. No way could I afford to keep a tech on call for this! Also, with a piano tuner, no matter how good, you are getting one person's tuning, which may not be the tuning you prefer. Once again, if you can manage to do it yourself, you can make the piano sound exactly the way you want it to: the octaves stretched exactly as you like them, the thirds, etc.,etc.,... And you can experiment with different tunings.

So with that in mind I went out on a limb and purchased the VT, indeed, with no way of really demoing the program prior to purchase.

What are my observations?? Well, in general, it took me some time to get exactly the right tuning for my particular Kawai model 500, (1968). Finally, I have what to my ears sounds like a spectacular tuning, but I had many issues along the way.

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