The illustrated guide is beautiful.



When I play-tested a V-Piano earlier in the year, I was unable to select any non-piano voices. I believe I tried pressing every button, however I did not have access to the owner's manual, so it may perhaps requite a combination of button presses.

Cheers,
James
x

Apparently it will play SMF with these internal sounds, so it may just be a matter of using another keyboard to access the appropriate channel/voice.

We couldn't access them from the panel either.

Snazzy

I realized that I had missed reading a few posts, and thus have edited my response below, to more appropriate answer one of your questions.]

It is not a hassle at all to access the various PIANO presets, or PIANO user presets. You can program four buttons for direct access, or use the dial. (There are only 24 presets - variations of the two models that the V-Piano contains.

Accessing the GM sounds is another matter. You can't accomplish this with button presses, but only by playing from a sequencer with appropriate patch changes. YUCK!!! (I have no idea how the GM sounds sound. Never bothered with them).

You could possibly place a keyboard on top, depending on what it was. (A personal matter, in terms of ergonomics).

Quality? (Of the piano sounds). The models play superbly (a strength of Roland's approach) but the mid range is not good (a weakness of Roland's approach).

I play the V-Piano everyday, and now really work to avoid the midrange. How sad is that? As always, it depends on your approach, style of playing, style of music etc., so your friend's milage may vary.

BTW, check your email account listed in you profile. (I've sent you an email).

Lawrence

I took early delivery of my V-Piano yesterday. Spent the evening playing. I agree the midrange does have a slightly artificial sound. I improved this by tweaking hammer hardness, cross resonance and tone colour but it is a characteristic of the piano.

What I don't think some of you are fully acknowledging is the playability of the thing as a musical instrument. Its response to velocity change is remarkable and very piano-like. If you play sampled based sounds all the time (as I have done for the last 15 years), you get used to a kind of disconnection between player and instrument...I really mean you get used to it...to the point where you can live quite happily with it most of the time. When you really get into the V-Piano you realise what a leaden, plodding experience samples often provide. The tonal change they exhibit just doesn't get close to the dynamism of a real instrument.

Perhaps until modeling really does capture the sonic authenticity of a grand piano then the future might just be hybrids of samples and models. There's no doubt in my mind that modeled sounds are the most playable and expressive but I agree at this moment in time samples provide the best sonic realism.

Just one or two more things from me...having watched the Yamaha videos about the CP1 etc...there can be no doubt that the acoustic pianos are basically sample-based probably with some additional modeled elements, but the basic tone generator replays samples of a Yamaha Grand. The electric pianos are entirely modeled but this has been successful for some years now with General Music pioneering this on their "Real Piano" series. They look like really nice instruments to me.

One final point...my Roland man tells me there are rumours of additional sounds and/or updates to the V-Piano for early 2010 which will be retrofittable via the USB port.

Cheers and Happy Christmas,

Steve

Are you lumping together the true electric pianos with the synthesizers?

A quote from Yamaha's web site implies the electric and acoustic use the same technology


The guy on the video said that the Synth sounds where completely model based. But I'm pretty sure, and it's backed up by the above quote, that elct. pianos are hybrid sample/model based like the acoustics.

Terminology may be an issue an "electric piano" is an instrument that uses real hammers to strike objects like strings and tines that produce tones that excite a pickup that feeds an amp. Very much like an electric guitar.

Synths on the other hand, even the first ones back in the 70's were always models. In the beginning they used analog components but never physical hammers or strings.

The current generation of Yamaha DPs play sample synth sounds. It looks like the CP1 goes back to the old way

Yes, I had intended to make this very point earlier. Because the V-Piano is entirely software based, it is highly like that Roland will release updates to improve the realism of the modelling, just as we have seen with Pianoteq. Indeed, I also suspect that electric piano (and possibly other modelled instruments) sounds will also become available, ideally as a free download.

Cheers,
James
x

As a V-Piano owner, I certainly hope that there will be updates.

My first wish would be for improved, i.e. more realism in the existing two models. Other models can be added after that. The mid range deficiencies must be addressed, in my opinion.

We'll see what happens. Perhaps something will be announced at NAMM?

Lawrence

A good example of the "looped" sound in the CP1 is the S6 Grand demo recording here: http://www.yamahasynth.com/products/stage_pianos/cp1/

Listen to the bass note that is held at the end - to me it sounds like there is a lack of natural evolution to the sound.

Greg.

My goodness that CP-1 sounds some good! I have to restrain myself, and actually wait to play one before I give my whole opinion.

I'm not getting fooled like I did with the V-Piano...I thought it was my next acquisition....till I played it.

I somehow feel this new Yammie will be the one to beat...the V-Piano only had a temporary visit to the top of the pile.

I've got one great consolation...my CP-300 is an awesome stage piano. and I'd be glad to stay with it if these newcomers aren't to my liking.

Snazzy

Well, the V-Piano is the best digital piano I've every played, but it's still not "the one" in terms of sound, although certainly it makes the grade in terms of playability.

Time will tell if the CP1 will make the grade in both departments.

Lawrence

The Yamaha CP-1 has some stiff competition, in my opinion, both against the V-Piano (if they upgrade it and fix the questionable mid-range) and the new Korg SV-1.

It also has to beat my Yamaha CP-300 which has excellent pianos, strings, organs etc. and a lovely action...not to mention the awesome internal speaker system and midi controller capabilities. It also weighs about the same as the CP-1, which does not have on-board speakers.

Don't take my dismissal as a put-down of the V-Piano, Lawrence...I'm very fussy like you are, and my next instrument is competing against an instrument I already love (CP-300) and the incredible Avant Grand, which obliterates pretty well everything I've ever played, including my old Steinway B, which is one of the best pianos I've owned...too bad it goes out of tune like all acoustics.

Snazzy

Mark my words - and I sincerely hope I'm wrong - the CP-1 (indeed this whole product line) will be a disappointment to anyone expecting the next major step in acoustic DP sound realism. If you want an EP, great, but the acoustic piano stuff strikes me as more of an afterthought than anything else.

When are we going to get an open-source friendly DP? Something with enough processor and storage to do real DP sounds? Then just let the open-source community do the software. I'm tired of waiting on the DP manufacturers to catch up with the rest of the modern world.

I hope you're wrong, dewster.

These CP's seem very good in the mi-range, where 90% of the Roland digital pianos are very thin.

It's like they sampled the same acoustic piano, but with progressively more expensive microphones, for each and every instrument they make that has a piano sound in it.

Even my recently sold Roland E-80 had that characteristic weakness in the mids on both it's main pianos.

It's a shame, because a lot of playing is done in the middle of the piano.

My 20 year old HP-1700 has great mids, but back then they used Structured Adaptive Synthesis which preceded their ventures into sample based pianos.

That's why I found it odd that the V-Piano sounded synthetic in the mids...one would hope they should be able to fix that with OS upgrades.

The CP-1 is using both sampling and modeling for the acoustic pianos, giving them a major edge, in my opinion, and, from what I've been hearing, the mids are very good because of it.

The mid-range on my Avant Grand, and CP-300 and P-85 is very good; again, very characteristic of nearly all Yamaha digitals, and that's without the assistance of modeling, which should only make these new CP's even better.

I hope they are very good...I'd hate to waste my money on frivolous things like food and shelter.

Snazzy

Snazzy -

No. I unfortunately agree with you. The mids are a big problem. I've tweaked, and improved a bit, but the hollow, synthetic character is still there - all the worse since the ranges above and below are quite acceptable.

I would probably be happy with the N3 (or N2) except for two things:

(1) the price is WAY out of my range - the reality of becoming a pensioner in just over a year is, well, a reality!

(2) I want an instrument that I can record with, I guess without resorting to mics. I suspect that the N3's wonderfulness doesn't translate well to recording from the audio outputs.

I haven't played an N3 / N2 yet, and probably should - especially in comparison to the CP1.

I'm worried about the S6 sample in the CP1. On other forums (like SNinety.com) the S6 in the S90XS is trashed, big time. Apparently they are using samples from the same sampling session for the S6B in the CP1, although the sample will be much larger, and of course, there will be the modeling stuff.

I (perhaps foolishly) keep telling my wife - "this is the last keyboard, for a long time" . . . New Years resolution - stop lying to the wife . . .

Still, if the solution to the V-Piano means trading it for a CP1, I will be prepared to do it. I will, of course, first wait to see what the (possible) OS update brings.

Lawrence

Me too. Believe me, if I could find something - anything - to hang my hopes on, I would.



I see the V-Piano as a first generation Pianoteq - an oddity that might turn into something real if they put a ton more work into it. And I'll be damned if I'm going to pin my fragile hopes to software upgrades from the DP industry. Those guys will let you down every time.

All kidding aside, my heart goes out to you.


Abandon hope, all ye who enter here...


Do like I'm doing and just swear off DPs until they make something real. Buy Pianoteq (or whatever floats your boat sound-wise) and bide your time. Life's way too short to be playing a fool's game.

At risk of bringing the converstion down a notch can someone tell me if the CP-50 will have the same piano sound(s) as the CP1. From a brief look at the decription (andys music) it looks like it does. Am i dreaming or is that too good to be true because the price is so radically different. i mean with a 20% off coupon you might be able to get the CP50 for $1360. I know there has to be features on the CP1 that justify the relative price but still...to answer my own question though now that i look a bit at the specs it does look like you'll be getting '6 selected' piano sounds on the cp50....11 on the cp5 and then 17 on the cp1. Of course the cp50 doesn't have the wooden or same quality of graded touch that both the other models do and i'm sure there's more but still...have to admit (and especially if you get the 20% off on any of these it would be hard not to at least go for the mid-priced model)

Limavady,
There is some doubt as to whether the CP1 & CP5 actually have graded actions or not - they are wooden, but may not be graded. If so, this results in the peculiar situation of the cheapest model in the group having one aspect of the keyboard that is superior to the others.

Does anyone know for certain whether the CP1 & CP5 have graded actions or not?

Greg.

sullivang, I think it's safe to assume that the new 'NW Stage' action will be graded. Indeed, it may well be an improvement on the current GH3/NW action used in the CLP-3xx series.

Cheers,
James
x

James,
I guess you're probably right. I notice that Yamaha sort of drop the term "graded" in the higher-end models that have the NW action, because it's obviously assumed knowledge that it is graded. Maybe it's the same situation with the NW-Stage action.

Thanks,
Greg.

One could also look at it thus; Swear off acoustic pianos until they make something maintenance free, with alternate sound like Rhodes, Wurly, Pipe Organ, Strings, plus, ease of tuning to other instruments, easy transposition, easy amplification.

Most importantly, "maintenance free" would mean no need of tuning.

I agree about life being "too short to be playing a fool's game", but in the context of wasting one's time with acoustic pianos...dinosaurs, all of them! Their bones will eventually be scattered about the dump-sites of the nations, with only the most special and historied instruments winding up in museums next to the pterodactyl and tyrannosaurus.

Acoustic pianos remind me of the old Underwood manual typewriters....cool, until you have to replace a ribbon, or get parts.....still, there are those who love them.

Snazzy

Ha ha! And I apologize for being such a negative vibe merchant.


I agree. Sight unseen (a huge unknown) if I HAD to buy either the P155 or CP50 at this point, I'd probably pony up the extra dough and go with the CP50 - but only if the seller had a liberal return policy.

Sure would be nice to see a manual for the CP50.

KAWAI James, can you use your inside connections to light a fire under your counterparts at Yamaha ? ;-)

I looked carefully at Yamaha's site, and kept seeing smoke and mirrors (sales speak).

If the CP's were truly modeled the site would say so (and not just cast out hints). Surely they realize that the future is not with samples, no matter how they are manipulated.

However, the problem with physical modeling is that the user is faced with too many variables that affect each other. As a Pianoteq user for well over a year, I'm still on a steep learning curve. I doubt that many DP users are interested in going through this, and the DP makers know this.

Glenn

Ouch.

You have it backwards, actually. I've sworn off of a software solution. I actually own Pianoteq (was a beta tester for the lastest version) as well as tons of samples set.

Lawrence

My apologies, I wasn't trying to call you a fool but I guess my post could be read that way.

I'm curious, what got you in the position of being beta tester for Pianoteq all those piano samples? What do you think of v3.5?

I agree. The most technical wording I've found is from the product line brochure:

Overview of SCM (Spectral Component Modeling)
The Spectral Component Modeling system starts with a fundamentally different tone generation system than Yamaha has ever used before. This system allows physical components of the instrument (hardness of the hammers, resonance of the sound board, striking position of the hammers) to be modeled. It also uses a complete different method of playback than normal sampling technology. Rather than multi-velocity layers of samples, SCM uses granular parametric data so every nuance of the player’s touch is translated into expressive tone.

My guess is they are using fine-grained frequency bands, like FFT or DCS, to encode the samples. Then they record stuff like harder hammers and the like, and adjust the envelope of frequency bands to simulate this. Essentially it is still just a sample playback system.


I think they could make a dumbed-down interface of some sort, or rely on totally brain-dead things like presets.

The problem still remains with presets - who will not be tempted to "improve" them?

An example - an fxp posted during beta testing is so badly screwed up, that my guess is that the fellow was unknowingly compensating for his poor sound system.

On the other hand, a user recently developed an fxp of a Steinway D (with major changes in tuning among others) and is actually quite good (he knows what he's doing and takes the time to do it). It's quite easy to give up on PT, and conclude that it doesn't work (while waiting in vain for the perfect solution to come from the DP makers).

Pianoteq requires some knowledge of the physics of the acoustic piano, not something that most of us are interested in or willing to learn about.

Buying the latest Yamaha/Korg/Roland/Kawai/whatever DP is much easier.

Glenn

In that case, no offense taken!

Just to clarify, I was a beta tester for Pianoteq 3.5 Pro. I was invited to be part of the beta test program. Not actually sure why, but I suspect due to my reputation of constantly seeking "the one".

I've also beta tested another (sampled) piano.

Beta testing is hard work, and you have to be able to put a lot of time into it.

Lawrence

The Pianoteq presets sound so much better than anything I've heard on any DP (not that I've demoed all DPs by any means) - no looping, no stretching, no layer switching, tons of sympathetic resonance, nice long rich decays. I've played around with the parameters somewhat, mainly just to see what they do, but the presets are so far and away better when compared to DPs that I find it difficult to complain. Maybe that would change if I used it more, but nothing is really hitting me in the face when I use it (unlike every DP I've spent quality time with).


Oh, it's really nice to know you can deep-dive if some minor thing is driving you crazy. This is why I buy name-brand PC motherboards (Gigabyte, ASUS) with full-featured BIOS.


But there's that little "waiting in vain" part you mentioned above that makes that proposition rather dicey. Yamaha is doing it's level best to rip my heart out with vague press releases regarding their latest DP line. I barely survived the V-Piano publicity wave (& need a T-shirt proclaiming that).

So what did you think of it? Or are you not at liberty to say? Do they make you sign some kind of NDA or similar?


Wow, you get around! BTW, have you tried the VintAudio C7 sample? I'd be very interested how that measured up to your other experiences.