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#1337494 - 12/30/09 10:51 PM Circle of Fifths question
HappyApple Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/08/09
Posts: 254
Loc: Tennessee, USA
What do the /notes mean? All I can figure is that they are 6ths confused

And it seems like someone was starting a new place to post pictures; but I couldn't find it in any of the forums?

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4062/4230347754_142cfdd1c7.jpg



Edited by HappyApple (12/30/09 10:56 PM)
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#1337495 - 12/30/09 10:54 PM Re: Circle of Fifths question [Re: HappyApple]
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11688
Loc: Canada
Is this the link you are trying to post? this link?

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#1337498 - 12/30/09 10:56 PM Re: Circle of Fifths question [Re: keystring]
jotur Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 5532
Loc: Santa Fe, NM
The small letter after the slash is the relative minor - the minor key that has the same key signature as the major key, which is printed in capital letters.

Cathy
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#1337526 - 12/30/09 11:18 PM Re: Circle of Fifths question [Re: jotur]
HappyApple Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/08/09
Posts: 254
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Thanks Cathy. That cleared that up!

I have posted pictures, not links, before. Now I don't know how. Getting old, I guess?
_________________________
“Some people stay far away from the door if there’s a chance of it opening up. They hear a voice in the hall outside and hope that it just passes by.” Billy Joel

1970 Baldwin Hamilton

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#1337592 - 12/31/09 01:15 AM Re: Circle of Fifths question [Re: HappyApple]
HappyApple Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/08/09
Posts: 254
Loc: Tennessee, USA
And that is the 'natural' minor; not the harmonic minor...right? And is there a simple rule to knowing the scales of a minor key? I know you take the 3rd note down a half step. is it a rule to take the 6th and 7th down a half step also. I am getting a little confused. I'm not even sure why I need to know this. But I imagine it is VERY useful down the road somewhere. Thanks
_________________________
“Some people stay far away from the door if there’s a chance of it opening up. They hear a voice in the hall outside and hope that it just passes by.” Billy Joel

1970 Baldwin Hamilton

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#1337647 - 12/31/09 05:23 AM Re: Circle of Fifths question [Re: HappyApple]
mahlzeit Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/06
Posts: 1910
Loc: Netherlands
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#1337650 - 12/31/09 05:28 AM Re: Circle of Fifths question [Re: HappyApple]
mcasl Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/24/08
Posts: 116
Loc: Spain
To form the scales follow these patterns: (W: whole step, h:half step)
  • Natural minor: W h W - W - h W W
  • Harmonic minor: W h W - W - h (W+h) h
  • Melodic minor:
    • Ascending: W h W - W - W W h
    • Descending: W W h - W - W h W (from 8th to 1st grade)


Notice that the minor modes for a key all share the same signature, i.e., to write in a harmonic minor key you use the natural minor signature and then add as many accidentals as needed.
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#1337663 - 12/31/09 06:51 AM Re: Circle of Fifths question [Re: HappyApple]
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11688
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: HappyApple
And that is the 'natural' minor; not the harmonic minor...right? And is there a simple rule to knowing the scales of a minor key? I know you take the 3rd note down a half step. is it a rule to take the 6th and 7th down a half step also. I am getting a little confused. I'm not even sure why I need to know this. But I imagine it is VERY useful down the road somewhere. Thanks

It refers to any minor: natural, melodic, or harmonic since it only gives the tonic.

To your question: Yes, a minor scale will have a lowered third note - C major starts C D E F G... (and you end up with a major chord C E G) while C minor starts C D Eb F G .... (and you end up with a minor chord (C Eb G) - but it's hard to remember the rest of the notes that way. This is where the circle of fifths comes in.

The scale that has the same key signature but starts 3 notes down (or 6 notes up = the same note) will be the relative minor scale. So: 3 flats gives us Eb major:
------- 1Eb 2F 3G 4Ab 5Bb 6C 7D Eb ..... If you start 3 notes lower you get C minor:
1C 2D 3Eb 4F 5G 6Ab 7Bb C

So C natural minor is the relative minor of Eb major. They share the same key signature and the same notes, except that C minor starts on the 6th note of the Eb major scale.

You can turn C natural minor into C harmonic minor by raising the 7th note (leading note) by a half tone. Bb becomes B. That brings it right next to the C making us feel the tonic more. It also allows for chords that are stronger in harmony.

So your natural minor
C D Eb F G Ab 7Bb C
as harmonic minor
C D Eb F G Ab 7B C

This has an "oriental" sound, and there is also a big leap of 3 half notes between Ab and B, so the melodic minor got invented. You have the same notes as harmonic minor, but this time you also raise the 6th note:

Eb major
Eb F G Ab Bb C D Eb
C Natural minor
---- C D Eb F G Ab Bb C
C Harmonic minor
---- C D Eb F G Ab B (natural) C
C Melodic minor
---- C D Eb F G A (natural) 7B (natural) C

So this is the way to get minor scales by looking at the relative major scale that has the same key signature. If you start with the natural minor, then you can figure out the harmonic and melodic minor from there. If you want to remember what the intervals are between the notes, you can discover them by using this as your starting point. The easiest is probably A natural minor, since it's like C major that starts and ends on A with no black notes.

Anyway, that's what the circle of fifths is describing with the lower case scale names beside the upper case ones.



Edited by keystring (12/31/09 06:55 AM)

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#1337879 - 12/31/09 01:16 PM Re: Circle of Fifths question [Re: keystring]
HappyApple Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/08/09
Posts: 254
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Thanks everyone. I will print these off and study them.
_________________________
“Some people stay far away from the door if there’s a chance of it opening up. They hear a voice in the hall outside and hope that it just passes by.” Billy Joel

1970 Baldwin Hamilton

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#1337985 - 12/31/09 03:54 PM Re: Circle of Fifths question [Re: HappyApple]
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
Originally Posted By: HappyApple
And that is the 'natural' minor; not the harmonic minor...right? And is there a simple rule to knowing the scales of a minor key? I know you take the 3rd note down a half step. is it a rule to take the 6th and 7th down a half step also. I am getting a little confused. I'm not even sure why I need to know this. But I imagine it is VERY useful down the road somewhere. Thanks


The harmonic minor is easy. The tough one for me to remember is the melodic minor. Fortunately, that one isn't used as often as the harmonic.
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