Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Page 7 of 33 < 1 2 ... 5 6 7 8 9 ... 32 33 >
Topic Options
#1339890 - 01/03/10 01:51 PM Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! [Re: Dr Popper]
Melodialworks Music Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/05
Posts: 1309
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Dr Popper

. . . I will certainly post my impressions (and samples if I can) here for you to check out.


If you can record directly that would be great. (Perhaps you can record to a USB jump drive / stick / key). Some of the newer Yamahas have this feature. I find that recording using a (cheap) mic or video camera mic are less than useful, when it comes to evaluating the sound quality!
_________________________
Melodialworks Music
Yamaha C3X
Yamaha CP300 + Omnisphere
Yamaha NU1 + Production Grand

Top
(ad) Roland

Click Here

#1339892 - 01/03/10 01:56 PM Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! [Re: dewster]
Melodialworks Music Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/05
Posts: 1309
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: dewster

Not trying to harsh on your s90sx, but I find "big" followed by "142mb" a rather depressing accurate description of the size of DP sample sets these days. Yamaha themselves claim it to be "huge".


That actually IS large for ROM. Don't forget these will be compressed samples with real time decompression going on. The sample libraries on your computer are not compressed.

We need to compare apples to apples, in terms of size here. RAM / uncompressed v. ROM / compressed.

Also, don't forget that some of the modeling magic will result in the samples being smaller, I suspect.


Edited by Melodialworks Music (01/03/10 01:57 PM)
_________________________
Melodialworks Music
Yamaha C3X
Yamaha CP300 + Omnisphere
Yamaha NU1 + Production Grand

Top
#1340128 - 01/03/10 07:38 PM Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! [Re: Melodialworks Music]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4271
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Melodialworks Music
That actually IS large for ROM. Don't forget these will be compressed samples with real time decompression going on. The sample libraries on your computer are not compressed.

We need to compare apples to apples, in terms of size here. RAM / uncompressed v. ROM / compressed.

Except the forms of compression they've used in the past to make these smaller are stretching, looping, and fewer velocity layers. Sorry, I stopped wanting to hear that tired kind of compression years ago. Maybe this DP line will finally be different, but who knows?

Originally Posted By: Melodialworks Music
Also, don't forget that some of the modeling magic will result in the samples being smaller, I suspect.

No offense, but you have an awful lot of faith in a bunch of guys who never met a microscopic ROM they didn't love.

I'm always surprised when I see the insides of a DP - I expect to find ferrite core RAM and diode ROM.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1340135 - 01/03/10 07:53 PM Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! [Re: wildpaws]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4271
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: wildpaws
If you truly believe that DPs are so far behind in technology and you think that "huge" sample based PC software pianos are so advanced, then why are you bothering to look for a DP to fit your needs?? I have found it best to find out which gear works best for my wants/needs and to then purchase it.

Oh, if it were only that simple. The thing is, I really want a state-of-the-art DP, something you just turn on and play, not some software running on a PC (though that has it's place). Now and then I'm asked to recommend DPs for various people and installations, and most people just aren't technically up to a SW piano setup. Most can barely turn on the powerstrip to the PA.

V-Piano was looking good for a while, though it's definitely not very portable, and then I realized that modeling takes multiple generations to get anywhere near right. At least Pianoteq gives free updates, but who knows what Roland will offer? In the non-modeled category no one offers a large enough sample.

Originally Posted By: wildpaws
You cannot force manufacturers to make something to exactly your specifications, you look at what is offered, if it works for you then purchase it and use it.

Well, that's the point, nothing I want is being offered by anyone. Don't you want a DP that is good enough to record with? Don't a lot of people here want that? This isn't just pointless bitching, I know manufacturers watch sites like this to at least some degree. And we all know they can build it, they just won't for some reason. I've asked KAWAI James about it pointedly and repeatedly, but he's been totally mum on the subject.

Are there any other industry types here that can weigh-in on this subject?
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1340140 - 01/03/10 08:09 PM Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! [Re: dewster]
Melodialworks Music Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/05
Posts: 1309
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: dewster

. . . I really want a state-of-the-art DP, something you just turn on and play, not some software running on a PC (though that has it's place).


dewster -

Exactly! That's what I'm looking for as well, although of course I'm willing to use the computer when I need to record. However, really, I'd like to simply press the power button and play. Not deal with multiple program loads, and configuring files, and click, click, click with the mouse.

What is your opinion of the Yamaha CLP-380?

Lawrence
_________________________
Melodialworks Music
Yamaha C3X
Yamaha CP300 + Omnisphere
Yamaha NU1 + Production Grand

Top
#1340154 - 01/03/10 08:44 PM Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! [Re: Melodialworks Music]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4271
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Melodialworks Music
What is your opinion of the Yamaha CLP-380?

Haven't heard it, but 5 velocity layers is sort of barely getting there. 8 key up + 8 key down = 16 is what I would consider to be minimum for a sampled piano (as would many I suspect if they were buying a PC sample set 5 years ago). The real question is the size of the sample, which Yamaha probably doesn't want to tell you. They idiotically consider that kind of info to be proprietary - funny, those who sell PC sample sets know it is a huge (some would say THE) selling point and advertise it all over the place.

OK, I'll say it again: I can buy a 4GB USB flash drive at newegg for $10. Why are there no 4GB AP samples to be found in any DPs???? It simply can't be economics at this point...
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1340313 - 01/04/10 03:26 AM Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! [Re: Melodialworks Music]
madshi Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/08/09
Posts: 62
Originally Posted By: Melodialworks Music
That actually IS large for ROM. Don't forget these will be compressed samples with real time decompression going on. The sample libraries on your computer are not compressed.

Lossless compression (e.g. FLAC, TrueHD) achieves about a compression ratio of 3:1 with 16bit material. So even if the ROMs are compressed by using lossless compression, those 142mb would just become 450mb. That's still really low compared to what PC software does. Ivory comes with 40GB worth of sample data. Of course it's possible that they use lossy compression for the ROMs, but that comes with its own problems. Lossy compression works well enough for a final song. But if you actually compress the original PCM data, which must still be processed, mixed together etc, the loss by lossy compression hurts much more. Furthermore I would guess that typical DP CPUs aren't fast enough to uncompress 128 (polyphony) lossy samples at the same time, when using really high quality codecs like MP3 or AAC. So if ROMs are compressed, it's probably a rather simple compression algorithm. Which means that either quality suffers, or the compression ratio can't be too great.

Originally Posted By: dewster
OK, I'll say it again: I can buy a 4GB USB flash drive at newegg for $10. Why are there no 4GB AP samples to be found in any DPs???? It simply can't be economics at this point...

As was said before, you need a certain speed which may or may not be delivered by standard off the shelf flash components. Furthermore, not only the storage itself must be more capable, also the data bus and the main processing chip must be able to handle the higher load. It's possible that there are simply no standard hardware chips available yet which have the power/functionality to handle such large samples without getting too hot. We don't want fans in our DPs, do we? But I don't really know.

I do think, though, that top-of-the-line DPs are expensive enough that manufacturers should really pull out all the stops. If temperature is a problem, they could implement large external heatsinks and connect them to the CPU with heatpipes. Going the extra mile would also give manufacturers a valid reason for the much higher price of top-of-the-line DPs compared to budget DPs.

Top
#1340330 - 01/04/10 04:25 AM Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! [Re: madshi]
Dr Popper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 1706
Loc: Hancock Park LA (not again)
If I can record myself playing my S6 sample on my S90XS and then record myself playing a real S6 and guarantee you all that none of you could pick by ear which is which.... Whats the issue ?
Big sample , small sample , no sample ....if it works don't be picky. Because then you've stopped becoming a musician and started being a technician.



Edited by Dr Popper (01/04/10 04:27 AM)
_________________________
"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally supported by but not beholden to various musical instrument manufactures including Yamaha

Top
#1340333 - 01/04/10 04:31 AM Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! [Re: madshi]
Pianisti Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/16/09
Posts: 45
Originally Posted By: madshi

I do think, though, that top-of-the-line DPs are expensive enough that manufacturers should really pull out all the stops. If temperature is a problem, they could implement large external heatsinks and connect them to the CPU with heatpipes. Going the extra mile would also give manufacturers a valid reason for the much higher price of top-of-the-line DPs compared to budget DPs.



Yeah, you need quite a bit of watts to keep a decent processor and memory running even these days so heat, noise and reliability is really a problem. Think about fitting a 500 watt power supply unit into your DP with a quad core 2,5 GHz processor, 4-8 GB of DDR2/DDR3 ram, and some kind of storage device for 40-80 GB. In addition to that you need the motherboard, high quality audio chip + the normal gear of a DP.

So you've got 500 watts of power that needs lots of cooling but has to be very silent, and the whole system has to be robust in any kind of use for more than 5 years (physical shocks, humidity and temperature changes...) - no wonder why the DP manufacturers go under the fence here.
_________________________
Casio Privia PX-130 + VST = quite close to the real thing.

Top
#1340544 - 01/04/10 12:59 PM Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! [Re: madshi]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4271
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: madshi
Lossless compression (e.g. FLAC, TrueHD) achieves about a compression ratio of 3:1 with 16bit material. So even if the ROMs are compressed by using lossless compression, those 142mb would just become 450mb. That's still really low compared to what PC software does. Ivory comes with 40GB worth of sample data. Of course it's possible that they use lossy compression for the ROMs, but that comes with its own problems.

PC sample sets are not compressed. It doesn't make any sense to do that when memory and hard drive space cost so little.

Originally Posted By: madshi
Lossy compression works well enough for a final song. But if you actually compress the original PCM data, which must still be processed, mixed together etc, the loss by lossy compression hurts much more.

What do you base that assertion on? What did you mean exactly by "hurts much more"?

Depending on the how the sample data is encoded in the compressed domain, it might be entirely possible to do simple transformations like scaling single samples, and interpolating and mixing multiple samples before bulk decompression (i.e. if compression / decompression is largely a linear operation). But that's educated guessing on my part, and I don't think compression and its associated computational overhead are necessary at all the minute cheap flash is available (~4 years ago).

Originally Posted By: madshi
As was said before, you need a certain speed which may or may not be delivered by standard off the shelf flash components.

Flash bandwidth is not an issue.

Interpolating between two samples for detuning purposes, and also interpolating between two velocity layers for layer blending purposes, would require 4 Flash accesses per sample. For 128 polyphony at 44.1kHz:

4 * 128 * 44100 = 22,579,200 samples per second, or one sample every 44.29 ns. Two banks of relatively slow Flash operating at 70 ns could easily do this.

Originally Posted By: madshi
Furthermore, not only the storage itself must be more capable, also the data bus and the main processing chip must be able to handle the higher load. It's possible that there are simply no standard hardware chips available yet which have the power/functionality to handle such large samples without getting too hot. We don't want fans in our DPs, do we? But I don't really know.

As you can see from the calculation above, the processor and memory have to handle 22.6 million samples per second peak. If the processor runs at 1 GHz, this gives 44 clocks per sample, which should be plenty (if the operating system overhead can be managed, which an RTOS is designed to do).

Also, you can easily buy a DP or synth that will do 128 polyphony. And I would submit that looping requires the same or more computation than simple sample playback, so we're already there in terms of processor power - we've been there for a while now.

Originally Posted By: madshi
I do think, though, that top-of-the-line DPs are expensive enough that manufacturers should really pull out all the stops.

Amen brother, amen.

Originally Posted By: madshi
If temperature is a problem, they could implement large external heatsinks and connect them to the CPU with heatpipes.

Take a look at this product for ballpark processing power and memory / storage bandwidth:

WD TV

It streams and decompresses HD video. Sells for $80. No heat issues.

Originally Posted By: madshi
Going the extra mile would also give manufacturers a valid reason for the much higher price of top-of-the-line DPs compared to budget DPs.

Yes, this is what I really don't get. I believe they could charge something of a premium for a recording quality DP, and I believe there is a demand for one, yet for some reason it doesn't exist.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1340550 - 01/04/10 01:08 PM Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! [Re: Pianisti]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4271
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Pianisti
Yeah, you need quite a bit of watts to keep a decent processor and memory running even these days so heat, noise and reliability is really a problem. Think about fitting a 500 watt power supply unit into your DP with a quad core 2,5 GHz processor, 4-8 GB of DDR2/DDR3 ram, and some kind of storage device for 40-80 GB. In addition to that you need the motherboard, high quality audio chip + the normal gear of a DP.

You could do it with 5 watts, 10 if you're sloppy. No need for fans at those levels of power dissipation. No need for tons of RAM or multiple cores either.

I'm not really talking PC stuff here, but a 1 GHz ARM or equivalent, which is much more power efficient than even the Atom.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1340561 - 01/04/10 01:18 PM Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! [Re: Dr Popper]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4271
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
If I can record myself playing my S6 sample on my S90XS and then record myself playing a real S6 and guarantee you all that none of you could pick by ear which is which.... Whats the issue ?

Ever heard the soundtrack to "To Live and Die in LA"? On the track "The Red Stare" single piano notes are played very slowly with the pedal down. If you listen through headphones you can hear the sympathetic resonance of the entire piano. You can hear the felt hitting the strings when he releases the pedal to damp the strings. I bet I could tell the difference between your real piano and your S90SX if you were playing that.

That's the kind of realism I demand in a DP, I want it to fool me playing anything.

Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
Big sample , small sample , no sample ....if it works don't be picky.

Well, that's the point, it doesn't work for me. I really wish it did.

Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
Because then you've stopped becoming a musician and started being a technician.

We all become technicians to one degree or another when we are confronted with the purchase of a DP. I bet the size of the piano sample in your shiny new S90SX was a selling point for you - of so, then who's being the technician now?
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1340634 - 01/04/10 03:12 PM Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! [Re: dewster]
Dr Popper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 1706
Loc: Hancock Park LA (not again)
Now you've embarrassed me because I didn't remember that track which considering I played with Jack and Nick for nearly a year many moons ago got me to go find it. You might have picked the one track which would show up any DP in contemporary music but I could play it on a Roland Fantom G8 without you knowing as its got a separate sample for the kind of resonance effect your hearing on that track. Seriously I didn't know the size of the sample before I got the S90XS I just played it and it sounded good to me.
_________________________
"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally supported by but not beholden to various musical instrument manufactures including Yamaha

Top
#1340652 - 01/04/10 03:42 PM Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! [Re: Dr Popper]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4271
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
I played with Jack and Nick for nearly a year many moons ago got me to go find it.

Wow! That is seriously cool. Please do elaborate.

Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
You might have picked the one track which would show up any DP in contemporary music

Anyone else that is interested can listen to the beginning of it here:

The Red Stare

Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
but I could play it on a Roland Fantom G8 without you knowing as its got a separate sample for the kind of resonance effect your hearing on that track.

The G8 resonance may be nice (I haven't heard it) but I would probably be able to hear the looping, which would kill it for me. They list the wave memory as "256MB (16-bit linear equivalent)" which I would guess unfairly counts stretching and looping. It's not clear how much of that memory is dedicated to the AP voices.

Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
Seriously I didn't know the size of the sample before I got the S90XS I just played it and it sounded good to me.

I would submit that it sounds good because it is much larger than normal for a DP (though still quite small by PC sample standards). An even bigger sample would sound even better.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1340688 - 01/04/10 04:14 PM Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! [Re: dewster]
Dr Popper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 1706
Loc: Hancock Park LA (not again)
Not much to elaborate on my years of being a DX7 /Prophet /Fairlight geek are kind of a blur these days. I played with quite a few acts both touring and in the studio after my band broke up in 1984. Then I settled down married had kids and ended up in studio and stage production and the dreaded advertising business. I've been working on movie and tv music as well as stage shows and doing the odd album production since. Just got the band back together for a reunion tour in September and that's reminded me why I never missed it ;-)
_________________________
"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally supported by but not beholden to various musical instrument manufactures including Yamaha

Top
#1340706 - 01/04/10 04:32 PM Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! [Re: dewster]
Pianisti Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/16/09
Posts: 45
Originally Posted By: dewster

You could do it with 5 watts, 10 if you're sloppy. No need for fans at those levels of power dissipation. No need for tons of RAM or multiple cores either.

I'm not really talking PC stuff here, but a 1 GHz ARM or equivalent, which is much more power efficient than even the Atom.


But where do you store those 40 GB samples like in Synthogy Ivory or Best Service Galaxy and read them fast enough to produce real-time no-latency playback?
_________________________
Casio Privia PX-130 + VST = quite close to the real thing.

Top
#1340713 - 01/04/10 04:40 PM Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! [Re: dewster]
madshi Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/08/09
Posts: 62
Originally Posted By: dewster
PC sample sets are not compressed. It doesn't make any sense to do that when memory and hard drive space cost so little.

Never said they were. I was talking about DP ROMs.

Originally Posted By: dewster
What do you base that assertion on? What did you mean exactly by "hurts much more"?

If you take lossy sources and process/mix/modify them, things can only get worse. There are many examples in the audio and video processing world that show this. E.g. if you post process lossily compressed video, things can get ugly very fast. Lossy compression is great, but I'd use it only for the final step. At least that's my opinion. I don't have a scientific proof.

Originally Posted By: dewster
Flash bandwidth is not an issue.

Interpolating between two samples for detuning purposes, and also interpolating between two velocity layers for layer blending purposes, would require 4 Flash accesses per sample. For 128 polyphony at 44.1kHz:

4 * 128 * 44100 = 22,579,200 samples per second, or one sample every 44.29 ns. Two banks of relatively slow Flash operating at 70 ns could easily do this.

One sample consists of 4 bytes, though (16bit * stereo). Also there is *always* some overhead. Plus read spead must be noticeably faster than the theoretical needs, because you want a safety net.

Originally Posted By: dewster
As you can see from the calculation above, the processor and memory have to handle 22.6 million samples per second peak. If the processor runs at 1 GHz, this gives 44 clocks per sample, which should be plenty (if the operating system overhead can be managed, which an RTOS is designed to do).

Also, you can easily buy a DP or synth that will do 128 polyphony. And I would submit that looping requires the same or more computation than simple sample playback, so we're already there in terms of processor power - we've been there for a while now.

I don't have enough information about the internal design of a typical DP. If you loop samples a lot, you have to read much less data. Yes, the amount of data going to the DAC/outputs is the same. But the CPU does not only process, it's also responsible for controlling the data transfer, I think. So higher data transfers from ROM to CPU will also stress the CPU more. It's also possible that the CPUs typically used for DPs are simply not built in such a way that they can read data that fast from any source. I don't know that, though...

Originally Posted By: dewster
Take a look at this product for ballpark processing power and memory / storage bandwidth:

WD TV

It streams and decompresses HD video. Sells for $80. No heat issues.

I'm well aware of these devices. The Sigma Designs 8625 chip typically used by these HD video players gets quite hot. There are heat issues with some such players out there. And many of them have fans inside. I have one of these devices at home - fanless. I can barely touch it when it's playing back HD video. Also I believe the 8625 would be much too slow for a DP situation. Ok, it does decode HD video and that needs a lot of performance, but it's all done hard wired and not by the general processing part of the chip. The general processing part of the 8625 is so slow that it can't move more than about 10MB/s over a Gigabit Ethernet port, IIRC.

Top
#1340720 - 01/04/10 04:46 PM Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! [Re: Pianisti]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4271
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Pianisti
[quote=dewster]But where do you store those 40 GB samples like in Synthogy Ivory or Best Service Galaxy and read them fast enough to produce real-time no-latency playback?

On a SSD :

PQI 32 GB Solid State HD

Much, much higher read data speeds (lower access time, higher sustained bandwidth), much more durable, and lower power consumption than spinning platter-based drives. Cost is ~$100 (and dropping like a rock).
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1340737 - 01/04/10 05:05 PM Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! [Re: dewster]
Pianisti Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/16/09
Posts: 45
Originally Posted By: dewster

On a SSD :

PQI 32 GB Solid State HD

Much, much higher read data speeds (lower access time, higher sustained bandwidth), much more durable, and lower power consumption than spinning platter-based drives. Cost is ~$100 (and dropping like a rock).


Sequential Access - Read: Up to 170MB/s

You do get the low power consumption with that though and if combined with a low power consuming processor - it could work without noisy fans in there.

I think you would still need atleast some kind of fast ram for this system to work? That 170 MB/s is not enough, but it could be enough to feed the memory buffer of about 1GB or something. Why not just put 8GB-16GB of memory and load all needed samples to memory on start-up?

But, if you would want any kind of adjustable effects in order to mimic the acoustics of a concert hall for example, it would require a lot more computing power or some kind of DSP.


Edited by Pianisti (01/04/10 05:12 PM)
_________________________
Casio Privia PX-130 + VST = quite close to the real thing.

Top
#1340745 - 01/04/10 05:13 PM Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! [Re: madshi]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4271
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: madshi
One sample consists of 4 bytes, though (16bit * stereo). Also there is *always* some overhead. Plus read spead must be noticeably faster than the theoretical needs, because you want a safety net.

DP and synth manufacturers often count a single stereo note playing as polyphony 2. Even in that case 128 should be fine for almost any kind of playing on a DP.

The sample banks would be 16 or more bits wide, and my example was with old flash just to show that it was possible long ago. These days the sample playing would most likely be placed, in whole or in chunks, in dynamic RAM, from a SSD. It's more efficient to use DMA for this transfer, which is dedicated hardware that doesn't depend on the processor core.

Originally Posted By: madshi
I don't have enough information about the internal design of a typical DP. If you loop samples a lot, you have to read much less data. Yes, the amount of data going to the DAC/outputs is the same. But the CPU does not only process, it's also responsible for controlling the data transfer, I think. So higher data transfers from ROM to CPU will also stress the CPU more. It's also possible that the CPUs typically used for DPs are simply not built in such a way that they can read data that fast from any source. I don't know that, though...

Looping is a two stage process, and the transition from pure sample playback to pure loop playback is generally a crossfade. Which means that during the crossfade both processes are running concurrently. Clearly even this double load is not too much for the current inexpensive processors used in DPs.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1340760 - 01/04/10 05:23 PM Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! [Re: Pianisti]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4271
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Pianisti
Sequential Access - Read: Up to 170MB/s

<snip>

I think you would still need atleast some kind of fast ram for this system to work? That 170 MB/s is not enough, but it could be enough to feed the memory buffer of about 1GB or something. Why not just put 8GB-16GB of memory and load all needed samples to memory on start-up?

You only need that full bandwidth if someone mashed 64 keys all at once and you wanted a realistic representation of that.

SSDs are much faster than regular hard drives - if you can run a PC sampler off of a regular hard drive (and you can) then it should run even better off of a SSD.

No need to load all samples at start-up, streaming from a conventional HD has worked fine for years now.

Originally Posted By: Pianisti
But, if you would want any kind of adjustable effects in order to mimic the acoustics of a concert hall for example, it would require a lot more computing power or some kind of DSP.

The processor doesn't really do that much in a sample playback environment. I'm sure there would be cycles to spare for reverb and the like. You can always use a sample that captures the room acoustics too.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1341110 - 01/05/10 01:09 AM Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! [Re: dewster]
Dr Popper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 1706
Loc: Hancock Park LA (not again)
Ok I am back from the demo with the CP1 (and the CP5, CP50) and although i only had about 10 mins with each board and couldn't record any samples I can offer a opinion of sorts.
1) Keyboard ... its very good in fact close your eyes and you simply wouldn't be able to tell. I strongly suspect its the same or a very similar keyboard that's used in the Aavant Grand series and along the same lines as the V-Piano keyboard. Both the CP1 and CP5 have this same keyboard and its good. The CP50 has a different keyboard same as the S90XS I think and its very good but not quite like the others that really do feel authentic.
2) AP sounds ...the CP1 has 2 each of the SCM patches from the S6 and CFIII grands the CP5 has one of each. In AP (S6b -1) the sound was excellent noticeably better then my S90Xs which has the same S6 patch (a normal sample not the SCM) The Yamaha tech informed me that SCM is not sampling or modeling but rather a combination taking the best of each. The S6B SCM (1) on the CP1 was noticeably brighter then the CP5 in the mid-range but the 2nd S6 sample was a softer more traditional Yamaha sound. In the short time I had to play the boards I did not notice any obvious stretching or looping even when I tried however to my ear there are still some artifacts in the decay but its doubtful you would describe them as looping its a more acoustic artifact you sometimes hear on older pianos and I cannot even be sure I didn't imagine it. It is not unpleasant or noticeable. The CP1 sounded better and more rounded in both CFIII patches then the CP5 did in its one CFIII patch but both were more then acceptable (to my ear) and sounded better then the Advent Grand we played as well. Both piano's I felt were a improvement on the already excellent S90XS S6 based AP as was the CP50 which while offering the same keyboard as the S90XS was a nicer AP sound.
3)The pick of the bunch for me was the CP5 which has really nice strings and Clav's as well as some of the better EP's from the CP1 plus normal Yamaha range ( a lot of my S90XS's sounds were there). The CP1 has amazing EP's ...great Rhodes (5 of them !) Controls look good for stage use and the CP1 offers almost infinite adjustment similar to the V-Piano. The CP5 appears to offer similar but less intricate adjustment. I didn't get into the tech stuff much more then that. I can't help feel I personally would be happy with either but I'm not as picky as some ;-)

All three of these cases are well built and would take punishment on the road but the CP1 and to only a slightly lesser extent the CP5 are simply beautiful too ...very retro...very slick looking boards. I'm not sold on the displays but they are easy to read however to my eye while looking retro also look slightly "cheap" and don't really fit with the nice polished buttons.

In conclusion ... It sounds promising but I'm not singing its praises to the really picky bunch in here just yet. I'd like to spend a few hours alone with each of them before I'd do that. But from what I heard today I'm encouraged.
_________________________
"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally supported by but not beholden to various musical instrument manufactures including Yamaha

Top
#1341183 - 01/05/10 05:31 AM Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! [Re: Dr Popper]
madshi Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/08/09
Posts: 62
Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
AP sounds ...the CP1 has 2 each of the SCM patches from the S6 and CFIII grands the CP5 has one of each. In AP (S6b -1) the sound was excellent noticeably better then my S90Xs which has the same S6 patch (a normal sample not the SCM) The Yamaha tech informed me that SCM is not sampling or modeling but rather a combination taking the best of each. The S6B SCM (1) on the CP1 was noticeably brighter then the CP5 in the mid-range but the 2nd S6 sample was a softer more traditional Yamaha sound.

So the CP5 AP sound does not match any of the CP1 sounds? How much difference is there in sound quality is between CP1, CP5 and Avant Grand AP? Do you think the CP1 is worth the added money over the CP5?

Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
The pick of the bunch for me was the CP5 which has really nice strings and Clav's as well as some of the better EP's from the CP1 plus normal Yamaha range ( a lot of my S90XS's sounds were there). The CP1 has amazing EP's

Not sure what you're saying. You picked the CP5 because it has more/other sounds than the CP1? Or because it's cheaper while still having good sounds? Does the CP5 has any sounds the CP1 does not have? It would be great if you could bring some light into the sound/feature jungle. I'm totally unsure right now whether the CP5 has anything the CP1 does not have.

Thank you!

Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
Aavant Grand

Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
Advent Grand

<shrink mode> It seems you don't like the Avant Grand very much? grin </shrink mode>


Edited by madshi (01/05/10 05:35 AM)

Top
#1341185 - 01/05/10 05:35 AM Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! [Re: Dr Popper]
Kawai James Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8393
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Great review Dr. Popper!

I hope to try out the new CPs this week, if I find the time.

Five different Rhodes patches on the CP1 sounds just up my street! I wonder how they compare to the new SV-1 or the Nord Electro 3?

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

Top
#1341195 - 01/05/10 06:32 AM Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! [Re: madshi]
Melodialworks Music Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/05
Posts: 1309
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: madshi

So the CP5 AP sound does not match any of the CP1 sounds?


It's clear from examining the block diagrams that the AP and EP piano sounds will not sound the same, when comparing the CP1 and CP5.

Looking at the SCM Block Diagram demonstrates this.

AP: The CP1 has a preamp stage and a speaker simulator stage that he CP5 lacks.

EP: The CP1 has the simulator stag that the CP5 lacks.

Check out the bottom of the CP Comparison Chart (and the rest of the chart, for that matter) to get some clarity on the differences between the models.

Lawrence
_________________________
Melodialworks Music
Yamaha C3X
Yamaha CP300 + Omnisphere
Yamaha NU1 + Production Grand

Top
#1341198 - 01/05/10 06:40 AM Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! [Re: madshi]
Dr Popper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 1706
Loc: Hancock Park LA (not again)
The CP1 has just pianos the CP5 has the most of the pianos plus a lot of other patches , strings ,clav's, guitars etc its a more full featured board rather then a specialist DP only like the C1.

Personally for me the CP5 makes more sense. If you play a lot of Acoustic then the CP1 makes more sense as it has a few more AP patches.

There is little difference in the quality of the sounds between the CP1 and CP5 they are simply different just like no two acoustic pianos are the same.

I liked the Avant Grand just fine but I also saw a couple of other boards today both DP's, GDP's and others none of which I can discuss publicly that I was more impressed with.
_________________________
"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally supported by but not beholden to various musical instrument manufactures including Yamaha

Top
#1341210 - 01/05/10 07:39 AM Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! [Re: Dr Popper]
Kawai James Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8393
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
I liked the Avant Grand just fine but I also saw a couple of other boards today both DP's, GDP's and others none of which I can discuss publicly that I was more impressed with.


What a tease!
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

Top
#1341258 - 01/05/10 09:39 AM Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! [Re: Dr Popper]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4271
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
I liked the Avant Grand just fine but I also saw a couple of other boards today both DP's, GDP's and others none of which I can discuss publicly that I was more impressed with.

You played with a Gross Domestic Product? Wasn't the country that it belongs to rather upset?

OK, I Googled it and everything & I give up: what's GDP?

You probably can't answer this, but did you see anything in the same price range as the CP50 ($1700 USD) with a better AP sound? I'd be happy with a recording quality AP in a rackmount or desktop box too.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1341261 - 01/05/10 09:45 AM Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! [Re: dewster]
TTigg Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/07
Posts: 873
Loc: Southern California
Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
I liked the Avant Grand just fine but I also saw a couple of other boards today both DP's, GDP's and others none of which I can discuss publicly that I was more impressed with.

You played with a Gross Domestic Product? Wasn't the country that it belongs to rather upset?

OK, I Googled it and everything & I give up: what's GDP?

You probably can't answer this, but did you see anything in the same price range as the CP50 ($1700 USD) with a better AP sound? I'd be happy with a recording quality AP in a rackmount or desktop box too.

I believe GDP just refers to Grand Digital Piano. I'm curious as to what these new DPs are going to do to the prices of the current CP33 (circa $1100) and CP300 $2100. Seems there may be some discounts to be had pretty soon thumb
- SC
_________________________
"...I'm out there Jerry and I'm LOVING it!..."

My You Tube | My Box.net

Top
#1341291 - 01/05/10 10:44 AM Re: New stage pianos from Yamaha! [Re: dewster]
Dr Popper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 1706
Loc: Hancock Park LA (not again)
Originally Posted By: dewster
[
You played with a Gross Domestic Product? Wasn't the country that it belongs to rather upset?

OK, I Googled it and everything & I give up: what's GDP?

You probably can't answer this, but did you see anything in the same price range as the CP50 ($1700 USD) with a better AP sound? I'd be happy with a recording quality AP in a rackmount or desktop box too.


Avant Grand,CGP-1000,CVP-409GP.etc etc .Grand digital Pianos :-)

I didn't see anything @$1700 or less that was as good (AP wise) as the CP50 but the CP was a noticeable step down from the CP5.
I did however see another interesting product (not strictly a DP) that offered a new and superior AP patch ( to current ones) that I can't discuss. I saw some other nice AP sounds in a couple of other expensive unannounced products. I didn't get long enough with any one board to reach any conclusions.
_________________________
"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally supported by but not beholden to various musical instrument manufactures including Yamaha

Top
Page 7 of 33 < 1 2 ... 5 6 7 8 9 ... 32 33 >

Moderator:  Piano World 
What's Hot!!
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
Download & Print Sheet Music Instantly
sheet music search
sheet music search

sheet music search
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Who's Online
124 registered (accordeur, A Guy, Almaviva, 37 invisible), 1272 Guests and 44 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
74250 Members
42 Forums
153596 Topics
2251144 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Recorded a song on my workstation tonight
by Arizona Sage
21 minutes 14 seconds ago
How to tune a piano.....
by Grandpianoman
Yesterday at 11:46 PM
Need help with upgrading(?) Roland digital
by Pathbreaker
Yesterday at 10:23 PM
CA glue applications
by accordeur
Yesterday at 10:01 PM
Casio PX 850
by ryand90
Yesterday at 07:41 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission