Peter, should I read this as a veiled request for all theoreticians and enthusiastic amateurs to get out of the technicians' forum?

For my part, I tune my parents' harpsichord, and in due course I'd like to learn to touch up my own piano unisons and do some basic maintenance - but I'll never be a piano tuner, neither will I ever see a client.

Personally, I don't see how anything that's written here could possibly "dilute" the standards that you professionals work to - surely, the standards are not set on an internet forum? And surely, and most critically, nobody except yourself decides on the standards that you work to?

But pray, if you'd like the interested amateurs to disappear from the technicians' forum, then please say so - and please do so openly. I'd respect your wish and return to lurker status (although I'd be sorry to do so, since there's so much to learn by interaction).

Regards,
Mark

Dear Bill,

we met 2 years ago at the PTG convention in Anaheim and i want to say that this was an amazing experience and i like you personally very much. I always follow your contributions on pianoworld with great interest and i have to say even if i am from the fraction of ET, i don´t feel upset about your contributions of your ideas which are somehow against the rest of the world (among the tuners, probably not among your customers), but are somehow sympathical just because of that.

You have attended my class partially (as i did yours), played the piano i prepared and you did confirm a remarkable clear sound and (i find important) the pipe effect you are producing with your tuning method, to be present in my tuning too (i want to add that this is true for all keys).

But still i have to say that i felt a bit "pinched" by your recent contributions on pianoworld when you jumped up on the "wood vs plastic" contribution of an anonymous poster in grandpianoman´s "two ETD comparison" thread recently and changed your mind just whithin this thread. I just want in return pinch you a little bit too, and i hope you can take it with humour and smile about it as i don´t want to question your integrity at all (i am sure you can as you generally don´t care about what others say):

As i attended your class and listened to your tuning, i have to say that this was the sound character where i am usually phoned by my customers to pass by and do something about.

Sincerely,

Bernhard Stopper

I believe that when you are tuner in professional word, you have to face piano tuned by beginners that have not yet good tuning skills, pianos tuned by totally self taught , pianos tuned for a so low fee that the tuner get out fast, pianos tuned by people that dont have the slightest idea on what is laying a temperament and that rely on EDT (for historical tunings that does not make sense, as when HT is a way to temper the octave, while the ET is a way to divide it).

Then a good aural tuner will temper the octave in ET while an EDT based one will produce a tuning that spans on the instrument and have less character then.

I may say I understand what Peter said in few words, and it was not particularly aggressive even not against the one that try different temperaments, just a reminder.


it generally takes a long time before tuning begin to be solid and acute enough (the top of the piano say the same note than the bottom, and the piano may be played in all keys. An ET tuning is more easy to correct "on the fly", but is also harder to setup in a musical way.

And all the historical temperament, to me are only tuned in the medium range where they sound yet good, if the same relations where kept to the top of the piano, you'd finish with highly objectionnable fifths for instance, so I am believe that they are reconciliated towards ET in the treble and bass.

I understand what it brings in term of "old tone" to the tired piano, where ET will simply put emphasis on the need for new hammers, new strings etc. SO it please many customers as such certainly, but in the professional trade anyway in my customers, most are relatively exigent for tone and for a justness that have no tonalities that sticks out too much.
Immediately after tuning the piano always tone better and nicely, but after sometime it will move (only with the changes in weather for instance), and even if the customer does not notice (as usual) the initial tuning is not there anymore.

An ET tuning will accept those variations both directions, while a skewed one will change a lot more.

As the ear of the pianist accommodate, it may well not notice , but I bet that the piano is tuned more often then (good for business !!)

I've seen ET tuning keeping a piano playeable for 10 years, I cant say for other tunings, but when I was much younger, (in the60's) the flaws that many tuners installed in the temperament (by not using RBI at all, finish to stick out way too much, after one year you where playing on a honky tonk piano.

But I may say it is certainly an interesting instructional experience, and it can be pleasing for the ear as such.

then, will I install a temperament without asking the customer if he wants to ? certainly not, and at a professional pianist place unless he does not play in the farther tonalities it would be a good way to get out of the filed.

That said, I dont dare to have to reconciliate the tuning in the 5th octave if more precise work is not of the utmost importance, for instance on rare tunings or pianos that have not so much of a good tone.

We know with time so many ways to hide the defects, (sometime by adding more) all are valid !

Not a technician, so maybe my comments sren't welcome here. But if I want to play the Bach Inventions, and request my tuner to tune to historical standards (assuming I can find one who understands that) what's wrong with that. I would accept that much later music would sound strange (at best), but if that's what I want, why not? As long as an informed client requests alternate tuning, and understands the consequences, why not? And is there any reason why alternate tunings wouln't stay in tune as well as ET (after a settling-in period)?

Perhaps not, but that's not the issue. As I understand it, the gripe is that unless you're an excellent tuner working with an excellent instrument, and turning it very regularly, the effects of time, the environment, and human error make it impossible even to tell what temperament it is tuned to, particular some time after tuning. So, if I read it correctly, arguing about the merits of historical tunings is a distracting irrelevance in some cases.

I'm not saying I agree, merely that's what I understand the OP's complaint to be. Whether in a perfect (pianistic) world there is merit to using historical tunings is a different question, I think.

Hello, the only reason is that the soundboard shrinks and expand during the years and then modify the relations within the scale.

In the days the HT where tuned, on forte pianas, the pianist tuned his instrument, often daily.

If you can afford to have your piano tuned more often yes you will keep your tuning, but it will always react to humidity changes in a more audible way than an ET tuning, where the speed of RBI change, but the homogeneity of the progression let the piano playable really longer.

A HT tuning made with good taste is more fragile, good harpsichord players tune their instrument themselves most often.
Pianist unfortunately rarely can do that because of the training it necessitates - also because it is so difficult to found someone who could learn to you enough so you train efficiently, I guess that eventually it could be possible, if not to really tune to a professional good level, but to keep a tuning in shape somehow.

Actually, all my hysterical tunings involve clients with sharp wits who skewer my lame attempts at humor so well that it leaves us both laughing.

In the end, that's the question we should be asking our customers and ourselves. We should be here to meet the customers' needs.

The whole argument is a non-issue to me. People like what they like. The older we get, the more entrenched we get in our likes and dislikes.

The pin-setting/tuning stability IS an issue, but it's a different issue altogether than where one chooses to set the notes of any given temperament.

I'd like to propose a toast (coffee, at this hour) to the differences among us. Without them, life would be far less interesting.

David, my tech always gets around to asking if I need those black keys tuned. "They're just dividers, aren't they?" He's kidding, of course, but it's funny.

Yes Dave...Cheers!

I freely admit that there are times when a historical tuning would be a useful skill to have, and might be requested. I further freely admit that Bill and others (within and without the PTG family) have much to teach us all, provided we're open to the experience.

That said, in almost three decades of full time tuning, I've never had a single customer request an historical tuning. Those who work for colleges where the music department might seek this type of sound, may have varying opinions of course...but even at the colleges I service, I've never had a request for anything...even ET, actually...its just assumed we'll be working with ET.

So, really its more of a self-improvement thing to learn new ways of working, and new ways of compromise in setting the bearings. To which, I say "Bravo!" for those willing to share their knowledge.

FWIW

RPD

In response, I always ask when teaching alternate temperament classes how often ET has been requested... Often the answer is only once or twice, if ever! Clients are looking for an instrument that will play well - the specifics don't often come up. Usually, the way a temperament is presented has more to do with a client choice:

"Do you want me to try an old-fashioned historical tuning I read about, or just do the accepted equal temperament?"

Hmmm... I wonder what the answer will be?

Ron Koval
chicagoland

Well said, Dave!

Glen

When people call and order a tuning, there has to be some kind of “generally accepted standard” for the mainstream public to easily understand. Just as RPD states usually people are of the mindset that this will be a standard tuning, ......this is exactly what they presume will be tuned on their instruments.

Think of it like this: when you go to your favourite coffee shop and order a coffee you are given a standard cup of drip coffee. If you want a specialty high pressure coffee you have to order the latté or the cappuccino. You do not receive a variation to the standard unless you request it.

While all of the historical temperaments are entertaining to discuss and apply in certain circumstances, there are really only 3 questions to ask yourself with regard to tuning.

#1. Is the client happy with your work?

#2.Do they call you back for continued service?

#3. Do they recommend you to other people requiring service?

Perhaps on this forum we could try to celebrate our differences rather than punish each other for them.

And we've heard from Bill Bremmer that for 20+ years tuning non-ET the answer to all three questions is an enthusiastic YES! So why continue to assume that those kinds of tunings only apply in certain circumstances?

Ron Koval
chicagoland

It seems to me that a big problem with historical temperaments is the customer wouldn't know whether you did a good job or not. Some intervals are going to sound a bit dissonant so how do they know whether they are the ones that are supposed to be or not. In the recent thread "Broadwood Tuning Fun" the piano owner said that the Broadwood tuning left C7 really sharp. But why would C7 be sharp if C4 and C5 aren't. It seems to me that you could pass off a pretty shabby tuning as "historical" and when the customer decides that they didn't really like it the tuner wouldn't be called on it.

Well Ron,

The claim from Bremmer is that this resounding YES! is the response from his customers.

We have other posters here that have stated they never get the call for this type of thing, RPD for example.

Another example, my customers have never requested this type of thing, with the exception of one that I can remember.

Years back it was the North Vancouver School Board that had a Zuckerman harpsichord, a Flemish copy and was doing an early music concert.

So once in 38 years I would consider to be a certain circumstance. I am sure there are early music societies that use this sort of thing all the time. BUT for the mainstream public, it is not an important issue at all. Joe six-pack just simply wants his piano tuned, and to sound good to him, and his family members.

Whether it is historical temperament, ET or something else, MOST PEOPLE don’t know or care much.

It would be nice if this was not true but what can you do.

Very few people have ever specified ET to me and while some people say it is a "standard", I know from 25 years experience that the "standard" tuning I have most often encountered was not ET but reverse well. Some have made the same argument about pitch. A-440 is and accepted world standard but much of the world ignores it and technicians do whatever they want or whatever everyone else around them is doing.

Around here, a non-ET has been commonplace for more than 20 years. A few people do actually tune ET, the rest tune reverse well. Nobody is "passing off" any sloppy tuning around here as "historical". Those of us who do non-ET's are all RPT's and we do our work at the very highest level we are capable.

Peter's joke about "hysterical" is quite an old and tired one, certainly not very clever in my view. Moreover, what he says is insulting to the legacy of Owen Jorgensen. Jorgensen's degree program was the only one of its kind at the time when he taught it. He taught his students to tune historical temperaments first as a strategy. When they could learn to tune pure and equal beating intervals well, then they could learn to tune ET properly after that. It worked. Jorgensen's former students are of the very highest caliber. At the reception for Jorgensen at the last PTG convention where his former students gathered to greet him, a look around revealed a "who's who?" of the finest technicians in the business.

The recent strategy I have, the ET via Marpurg takes Jorgensen's methodology and puts it to work. I receive numerous e-mails from people who had struggled with other methods and report to me that for the very first time, they are now able to tune a temperament which will pass the PTG tuning exam. So, it is a method that will work, it is based upon historical practices and I do expect to see people passing their tuning exams at the next convention and in the future who have used the method.

Peter's often seen rags to riches tale of how he started on junkers but made a commitment to only working on fine instruments worked for him as an individual and that is to his credit. But what I don't like to see is the ADVICE given to NOT join PTG and try to elevate one's self by ridiculing the value of PTG and any piano not deemed worthy of one's expertise. If every person interested in piano technology followed that advice, there would soon be no piano technicians at all.

The century long belief that there is only one temperament and one way to tune a piano is what actually lead to the wide spread use and acceptance of reverse well. Sure, pianists might not no the difference sometime between ET and a non-ET but when the technicians doing the tuning don't know the difference either, that is a real problem. I've often noted that the technicians who ridicule and condemn the use of historical temperaments with the loudest voices are those whose temperaments are the most reverse of all the reverse well temperaments out there.

Ignorance has a way of breeding and multiplying its own inbred and deformed kind. The more that people believed that "Bach invented ET, tuned his own piano in it and it has been the universally accepted standard ever since", the worse piano tuning became. Just what "standard" was there before technicians began taking a standardized tuning exam and actually learned how to tune a true ET? Listen to nearly any recording from the 1960's and 1970's. Is that ET that you hear?

There have been PLENTY of insulting comments made by yourself of others, both dead and alive, members and non-members.

We are NOT going to turn this thread once again into the PTG-versus Non-PTG, RPT versus non-RPT.

Everyone here has had their say multiple times on those issues. The only member left here that CONTINUALLY brings these things up is you Bill. If you would like to post about those issues start another thread.

But for the sake of this place do not destroy yet another good thread with your brand of zealotry. Pool all of your consideration into one place and sit this one out then.

Thanks Peter, I really enjoied your post, true fun and funly true.

Little more than three decades of tuning, never I was asked for an HT. Not even on concert performing harpsichords. Then recently, a very close friend of mine and pro tuner was, for the first time, asked to tune a Vallotti.

Maybe an ET tuning is more likely to "adjust" on a "kind of" Irregular T, than an IT to adjust on an ET (?).

Hmm... maybe some of us like the sound of an unequal tuning more than the mathematically proper ET?



Same philosophy that ruined improvising... learn everything 'the right way' before you dare to connect two or more notes into a musical line.



BDB, if this is the definition, there are a LOT of historical tuners out there, disguising as ET tuners. At least I do not market myself as tuning 100% 'right'...

Hey guys,

My advice even though it is not asked for? Cool it down.......... I know, I've been there done that already... It's not worth having a canary over anymore...

So hard to make a point with so much smoke being blown...
OK..Bill is Bill in a category of one and what he does he does well, so I'm told...no argument...

I am a member of the PTG (associate)

Rags to riches?....who's he kidding....

The main point is that an historical tuning will not hold its shape if basic techniques are not applied...
So after a week it will sound hysterical....

Please read the Ist post in this thread......I totally respect alternate ways of tuning.....I just believe the priority should be given to belt and braces basics...ET with suitable stretches and good pin setting...where's the argument against that?

Play some music that was written in ET on a piano tuned with something else...not so good, especially in the upper treble. Play some music that was written in HT on a piano with ET and it still sounds great. Most of it comes down to the talent of the person playing the piano. A great musician can play a coffee can and make you cry. We as piano tuners are simply servitors of music.

Amen to all that.....

Actually I think Thompson nailed it: my first 100 tunings were historical AND hysterical. But in my experiance of 38 years of full time work a piano is considered "tuned" when tuned in a conventional ET. DOne plenty of orchestral and chamber tunings and never asked to do anything different. Certainly a historical tuning has its value but bread and butter is delivering what the customer expects.

Any tuning more than six months old is historical. The fact that people will tell me that the six month old tuning "still sounds pretty good" is hysterical. Often, what they really call me about is the pesky "B" and "C" keys that are sticking, and oh yea, why don't you tune it while you're here.

I had one tell me their 9 year old tuning still sounded good. Sometimes you have to bite your lip to keep from laughing.

These statements are no facts, more a matter of personal taste. I beg to disagree on both of them

Regarding the upper treble in UT tunings, in my opinion there's no problem if you stretch the octaves 'musically' (for example, using the 'mindless octaves' = 12th/15th equal beating idea... which to me translates into making the 12th and the 15th both sound as good as possible ).

But I guess Isaac's (AKA Kamin) thought sounds reasonable, too - a tuner who stretches an UT might very well subconsciously smoothen it out in the high treble/low bass, moving closer to ET.

Really? I can tell that mine is a bit stale at 3 months, and more than ready for a tune at 6 months, at which point the tech comes for a visit.

I completely disagree with the last two posts by Byron and Peter. In my opinion, the opposite is true. There has never been any music whatsoever that was written in, by or for ET. The more perfected the equality is, the more complete the "freedom of modulation", ah yes, so blissfully true but the more completely taken away is the reason or need to modulate.

Peter, if you are a PTG Associate, take the exams and find out how truly equal your ET is. Sliverwood, if you can't beat em, join 'em. Prove to yourself just how E your T really is. Nobody will reveal to anyone but you what your score actually is. Only you will have to live with that. You won't do it because you don't want to know and you are afraid to find out what the truth is. To suggest that every person who wants to succeed as a piano technician should follow either of the paths that you and Peter have followed would most certainly end up in failure for most people, most of the time.

I'm not "recruiting" anyone as the patently offensive header post by Frank suggests (which the owner of this forum leaves up to continually insult all that PTG has done for the advancement of piano technology). I am not "recruiting", I am DARING them to join PTG and take the exams! Prove to yourself you are not as good as you think you are! Only you and the three examiners will know and they are sworn to secrecy and believe me, they don't care what your scores actually are. They don't expect anyone to be perfect because no one ever has been. They won't remember you unless you make a fuss about it. Then, they will will remember you as the one who did.

Frank's ugly and insulting post should be taken down with a humble apology made to PTG and Frank should join PTG and take the exams too, just to find out where he stands. He is afraid to do that as anyone else is who tries to say there is a better way or "other paths" and that it is unnecessary. Go ahead, Frank, kick me off here and delete every one of my posts from your forum for saying that. I double dare you to do it. Keep your insulting header post because you are afraid of and intimidated by the very looming presence of PTG. It is your forum, you make your own rules. Enforce them or change them. You can't stop people from telling the truth and giving the best advice. You can only make rules that you cannot enforce that feed your own sense of inadequacy.

A Ronald Reagan said, Mr. Gorbachov, TEAR DOWN THIS WALL! I say, Frank, REMOVE THAT POST! The sooner the better. You cannot stop PTG. You need PTG. Every piano technician needs PTG and has benefited by PTG whether they were ever members or not.

What is real is real. Learning temperament and the mechanics of pin setting are two separate issues. Do we presume PERFECT ET and skilled pin setting to just naturally go together? How about one thing at a time? How about having a student do what can be done successfully, one step at a time rather than simply telling them to just keep working at it for a few years?

Once again BDB's post is completely off the wall, bogus, unnecessary, piled higher and deeper crapola. That is unfortunate because he is capable of better.

The entire premise of this thread is insulting, condescending and demeaning to any piano technician who truly understands the art of tuning. It should be entirely deleted as such. "Hysterical temperaments"! Laughing at and mocking the entire legacy of Owen Jorgensen and any piano technician whose knowledge and skills go infinitely beyond those of the person who wrote those words with the sole intention of putting himself above all others. Your points are not well taken. I reject them completely. You don't know what you're talking about but you are broadcasting it to everyone. I mean you, Peter. You don't know how wrong you are in creating this post and you have no idea of how wrong you have been in every post you have written so far. Take the exams and you will find out numerically how wrong you have been.