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#1343749 - 01/08/10 07:33 AM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Bernhard Stopper]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7883
Loc: France
Sorry Berhard, was not intended to agress you in any sort.

Music is based on subjective thoughts as well, so I feel free to give my impressions. Too bad if that makes me look as if I dont know what I am speaking of.

To be honest I dont really know what give me tonal impression. I strongly suspect it is due for one part to the variations in beat speeds, that serve us as inconsciently ruling the tonal output.

at the keyboard, the fact that more black keys are played add something in terms of tactile sensations , but yes I'll ask my brother, I highly trust him in that regard (but hi plays violin, even if often with pianists)

I said yet I'll ask him and I'll let you know his answer.

I am not afraid at all to look as an amateur that fire inconsistent ideas !!! I am from the dark side !!

Yes fifth Cordier have a larger span than yours, more agitated, may be that "agitation" is what I refer to for tonality.

agitate, agitate, it will always reamain something in the end (old Chines proverb) !

Cheers !



Edited by Kamin (01/08/10 07:36 AM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#1343751 - 01/08/10 07:37 AM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: alfredo capurso]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1072
Loc: Sicily - Italy

..."I believe that the sense for that musical equilibrium differ from people to people."

Quiet opinion.

I would like to believe that too. It may be true in non-relative terms, leave me in an island with only an "out of tune" marimba, I'll be happy to play and sing with that.

The minute I can compare, I would go for the most harmonious whole, like I go for birds singing. You may say "harmonious is subjective" but my logics does not help in this direction.

Anyone (educated), on a comparative basis and talking about medium range senses, can distinguish what is smoother, what is brighter, what is warmer, what is taller, what is dryer. These are not intrinsic barriers...On a comparative basis, we would all recognize the "most".

Environmental and cultural issues can go under "tastes" or "preferences", maybe related to habits and customs, but this is a different matter.
_________________________
alfredo

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#1343753 - 01/08/10 07:46 AM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: alfredo capurso]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7883
Loc: France
Well I suppose that i think "dry" or "warm" then .

A friend of mine have around 80 Steinway/Bechteins from the 1900 till 1970 , of course they are not all perfectly in tune, and you can interestingly compare the evolving of tone that get more or more epured with time.

But this is not the question, some pianists when there are totally charmed by the instruments and how they tone.

Other are despited, as they where expecting something else, more smooth, more even, more strong,more acute, they just hear old pianos with a relatively lessened tone.

yes professional pianists are generally in the second group.

I believe that imagination play a role there.

And I know a few pianist who like to have a modern instrument and an old one as well.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#1343756 - 01/08/10 07:52 AM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Mark R.]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4949
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: Mark R.
Dear all,

I have a quick and (hopefully) simple question. What is a "reverse-well" temperament? Is it one that has purer distant keys (bottom half of circle of 5ths) and more lively closer keys?

I'd be interested to know why a tuning that is "sold" as ET is, according to a few posters here, often-times a reverse-well.

Regards,
Mark


Mark:

Here is something that is often mentioned among sailors: “Know what the difference is between a Fairy Tale and a Sea Story is? One starts with Once Upon a Time, the other starts with This is No, uh, Manure.”

When a point is made by the same person over and over, such as the prevalence of “Reverse Well” tuning, by the use of endless anecdotes, I put it in the category of Fairy Tales and Sea Stories.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1343758 - 01/08/10 07:57 AM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Bernhard Stopper]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1072
Loc: Sicily - Italy

..."Get real Isaac, and keep your affective argumentation out of a forum of experts."...

Terrified, quiete request.

Act the way you like, Kamin, so that I can know you better.
Express your opinion freely and nicely, in the way you already do.
Help me look at things from your point of view too.
_________________________
alfredo

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#1343764 - 01/08/10 08:16 AM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: alfredo capurso]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
I agree with Diane. This thread if out of hand. To many arguments going on in here. It is not all Bill's fault. As painful as it was, I read the whole thing. While he is being singled out as the bad guy, I see others in here doing just as much to keep the fire brewing. As another thread in the piano forum says by Ken Knapp, "let's all be friends" and to that, I add, let's keep it civil, not personal. Do that privately.

While we are all entitled to our opinions; to try and make them the only opinion that is correct is creating further disagreements and of course, further problems.

While I find the PTG very valuable as many of you also do, I also respect the fact that many of you went to schools in other countries for 3 years, passed the tests there etc. I think that is a wonderful thing!!! At least many of us have done that sort of thing. Keeping up the good work that we do along with our skills is important.

My opinion of tuning is this. If one wants to tune in ET, that's what I prefer, fine. If another prefers EBVT, HT or whatever else, that too is fine. Whatever blows your hair back, as my dad used to say. The final outcome of the tuning itself, the pianos stability and client satisfaction is what matters most to the person doing the tuning and to the performer.

Jer
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1343770 - 01/08/10 08:37 AM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: alfredo capurso]
Bernhard Stopper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 214
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

..."Get real Isaac, and keep your affective argumentation out of a forum of experts."...

Terrified, quiete request.

Act the way you like, Kamin, so that I can know you better.

Express your opinion freely and nicely, in the way you already do.


But not on the cost of the reputation of others.

Of course, i was awaiting this reaction from your side, as you always argument like that.

In my recent critical reviews of your theory, i was trying to use the most objective argumentation possible, while you were responding in a defamatory style. Keep in mind that your habitus is not only registrated by me.
_________________________
Bernhard Stopper
www.piano-stopper.de

Salieri: "Mediocrities everywhere, now and to come: I absolve you all! Amen! Amen! Amen!"
(Amadeus, the movie)

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#1343771 - 01/08/10 08:42 AM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7883
Loc: France
If Diane is just trying to make up her mind on the opportunity to have the piano tuned one way or another that is not for sure the best place, as of course many differ in their opinions.

On forums people tend to be less civil than in a face to face conversation, that is the main problem with that kind of support. Personally I try to avoid too abrupt things, but I dont refrain to state what I hear , feel or whatever I have on my mind, while it is only what the readings or hearing inspire me.
If am I wrong I can be convinced of that I am not particularely entitled . My limited English may certainly sound as if I mean differnt things that I actually say.

But I try to be honest in any case , not to push people each against other. In that profession most are very proud of what they are able to do, that is understandable, but it is felt as if they all have an immense ego !




.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#1343778 - 01/08/10 08:58 AM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Bernhard Stopper]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7883
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Bernhard Stopper
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

..."Get real Isaac, and keep your affective argumentation out of a forum of experts."...

Express your opinion freely and nicely, in the way you already do.


But not on the cost of the reputation of others.




But Bernhard, what does it have to do with anybody reputation, what I say ? I state what I see , what I hear, and I try to give something if I can.

I dont in any case consider myself as one of the experts you are talking of, I am just a professional piano technician and restorer, and appreciate the huge insight that some more instructed people can offer.

Unfortunately experience showed me that in piano trade nit is difficult to find someone which is not critically talking always about how makers and other technicians act. The most instructed one particularly cannot refrain usually we have seen that with all the self made piano makers, and it is very easely there in forum conversations, while I believe it is a forum thing , I know that some colleagues detract as much as they can Renner, Abel, Steinway, and the whole trade generally speaking when comparing to them.
Then they play Steinway's, they use the parts, and their acts differ from their words. I dont know why, but very few stay on the quiet side of things when expressing their point.

For the "affective argumentation" I believe that affective is a valuable point of view (and expressed as such so it is not attacking in any case) , if it only could be backed by some logical explanation that should suffice to me.


Best regards.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#1343783 - 01/08/10 09:12 AM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Olek]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4215
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Originally Posted By: Kamin
Originally Posted By: Bernhard Stopper
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

..."Get real Isaac, and keep your affective argumentation out of a forum of experts."...

Express your opinion freely and nicely, in the way you already do.


But not on the cost of the reputation of others.


But Bernhard, what does it have to do with anybody reputation, what I say ? I state what I see , what I hear, and I try to give something if I can.

I dont in any case consider myself as one of the experts you are talking of, I am just a professional piano technician and restorer, and appreciate the huge insight that some more instructed people can offer.

Unfortunately experience showed me that in piano trade nit is difficult to find someone which is not critically talking always about how makers and other technicians act. The most instructed one particularly cannot refrain usually we have seen that with all the self made piano makers, and it is very easely there in forum conversations, while I believe it is a forum thing , I know that some colleagues detract as much as they can Renner, Abel, Steinway, and the whole trade generally speaking when comparing to them.
Then they play Steinway's, they use the parts, and their acts differ from their words. I dont know why, but very few stay on the quiet side of things when expressing their point.

For the "affective argumentation" I believe that affective is a valuable point of view (and expressed as such so it is not attacking in any case) , if it only could be backed by some logical explanation that should suffice to me.


Best regards.


Isaac,
You do not have to spend your time here justifying your postings or your existence to anyone. Post what you like when you like, everyone else seems to do this.

If people choose to be offended then that is their decision, not your responsibility.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1343786 - 01/08/10 09:17 AM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4215
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT
I agree with Diane. This thread if out of hand. To many arguments going on in here. It is not all Bill's fault. As painful as it was, I read the whole thing. While he is being singled out as the bad guy, I see others in here doing just as much to keep the fire brewing. As another thread in the piano forum says by Ken Knapp, "let's all be friends" and to that, I add, let's keep it civil, not personal. Do that privately.

While we are all entitled to our opinions; to try and make them the only opinion that is correct is creating further disagreements and of course, further problems.

While I find the PTG very valuable as many of you also do, I also respect the fact that many of you went to schools in other countries for 3 years, passed the tests there etc. I think that is a wonderful thing!!! At least many of us have done that sort of thing. Keeping up the good work that we do along with our skills is important.

My opinion of tuning is this. If one wants to tune in ET, that's what I prefer, fine. If another prefers EBVT, HT or whatever else, that too is fine. Whatever blows your hair back, as my dad used to say. The final outcome of the tuning itself, the pianos stability and client satisfaction is what matters most to the person doing the tuning and to the performer.

Jer




Jerry,
As you are well aware we all settled these issues a long time back yourself, myself and everyone else involved. There is only one party here that consistently brings this stuff back up.....everyone else has had enough.
This thread was rolling along just fine until the issues you have mentioned where brought forward once again by someone not willing to drop it.

No-one else in the thread even mentioned anything about these issues until Bill did.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1343795 - 01/08/10 09:31 AM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: JBE]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3271
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: byronje3
Originally Posted By: Horowitzian
Emmery, I can't back it up with fancy math, but there's something more in it than familiarity breeding contempt, so to speak.


Yes, I agree. Alfredo from the previous page tried to explain it by saying that musicians compose from what they happen to hear in their heads. If they are hearing something in their heads, they match it effortlessly to the key that it happens to fit best in. It is something beyond the reaches of the intellect as we know it. But I think there is some truth in what Emmery says as well. It may be a combination of things.

I meet people all the time with the ability to name the note while looking the other way. Some call it perfect pitch, I don't know. But the very strange thing is one guy nailed every note I played randomly and the piano was at A-430. I pitch raised to A-440 and tuned it and again he could easily name any note without a reference. I asked how he does it and he said each key has a certain color and feeling and it doesn't matter what the pitch is. So I think this could partly explain the different feelings that different keys in music produce. Even when tuned in modern ET.


I think you have the best explanation for it I have seen, Byron. I have been able to identify any note on the piano for what it is since I was a child, no matter what the pitch was or however out tuner would have tuned it back then. "Perfect Pitch" is simply not the right name to give that phenomenon but I know that will probably never change.

When I go to a piano for the first time and play the A on it before even opening the tool bag, I can tell if it will need a pitch raise or not and I say something about it. The customer often asks, "Do you have perfect pitch" and I try to explain briefly that there really is no such thing. Then they ask me how I know the piano is off pitch and my answer is that I really don't know how I can tell, I just can. Perhaps one reason is that I hear standard pitch so much that I recognize that frequency when I hear it.

People play Debussy, Bach WT clavier music and everything else all the time in ET or whatever approximation there may be of that. It does not mean that the same music played in a Victorian style temperament will sound the same. There will be a difference. Some people may not however be able to distinguish it.

Personally, I find piano music to come alive and capture my interest in ever phrase and modulation when it is tuned the way I customarily tune it. A piano tuned in ET just doesn't do the same thing for me. If every pianist who uses the temperaments that those of us around here provide had the same reaction as those who insist on ET only expect or fear they would have, they would have said something about it by now.

If everyone who went into Starbuck's and only wanted what used to be served as coffee years ago, there would be no reason to offer anything else. ET as the only proper way to tune a piano is only an opinion. Imposing that opinion on every pianist is no different from what I do. I impose my opinion on every pianist too. If they didn't like what I do, they wouldn't hire me. Yet, my customer base is solidly committed to the sound I provide. They refer me in turn to other clients who also like what I do.

Everyone will soon have a chance to hear many music examples played in the EBVT III once I go to Granpianoman's home to tune his player piano. I don't expect everyone to like it but whatever reactions there are, it won't influence what I offer to my usual clients. My clients prefer what I do and so I will continue to offer them what they have said they prefer.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1343797 - 01/08/10 09:33 AM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Olek]
Bernhard Stopper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 214
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: Kamin
Originally Posted By: Bernhard Stopper
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

..."Get real Isaac, and keep your affective argumentation out of a forum of experts."...

Express your opinion freely and nicely, in the way you already do.


But not on the cost of the reputation of others.




But Bernhard, what does it have to do with anybody reputation, what I say ? I state what I see , what I hear, and I try to give something if I can.


A critical statement is always appreciatable as long as the critics is objective, but is affecting the reputation of the criticer and unfortunately often the target too if it is subjective.




Edited by Bernhard Stopper (01/08/10 09:38 AM)
_________________________
Bernhard Stopper
www.piano-stopper.de

Salieri: "Mediocrities everywhere, now and to come: I absolve you all! Amen! Amen! Amen!"
(Amadeus, the movie)

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#1343820 - 01/08/10 10:01 AM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Bernhard Stopper]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4215
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Objective criticism hmmmmmm.. Let me see........ this statement here............

..."Get real Isaac, and keep your affective argumentation out of a forum of experts."...

I just absolutely love this statement. Reads like some here are very busy anointing themselves with labels in a self-congratulatory way, I am certainly hope that you do not dislocate your shoulder while you are busy patting yourself on the back.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1343822 - 01/08/10 10:03 AM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Bernhard Stopper]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2437
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Bill, any temperament (historical)falling outside of a general ET can have its use for very specific pieces that lend themselves to it. High end stock cars in Nascar have their steering geometry finely tuned to repeatedly make left turns. It works well for the drivers and allows the best of the car to show on the track (racing in the direction they do). If you asked them to suddenly race in a clock wise direction they would be skidding out of control on every turn. That is why regular road vehicles have their steering balanced equally.

A temperament is no different from this analogy. I do not follow your argument that scores of musicians prefer non- ET. Back to the analogy of the car, if the same were true, you are arguing that more and more intersections on roads only allow left turns; therefore we need to tune the steering on them like Nascar does. This is not happening on the roads and consequently there is no significant rise in the need for non ET or historical temperaments in the music world either. Odd balls are out there they may request a historical temperament, but I don't see them around here so I tune close to what every one else around here does.

Peter is right, any tuner wishing to get ahead in their field is best to try and perfect their methods for tuning Generic ET. There is so much to perfect in it along with the rest of the tuning that few, if any, can boast they have reached an impassable pinnacle. One additional benefit of sticking to ET is that criticisms remain valid among tuners...you are after all comparing apples to apples.

Quite often when I see a maverick out there doing something different then every one else I get the feeling that insecurity is the driving force. After all, if negative criticism comes their way they have left a back door open to respond by saying, " Well this is unique and you can't look at it the same way as you do for others".


Edited by Emmery (01/08/10 10:09 AM)
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1343829 - 01/08/10 10:09 AM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Bernhard Stopper]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3271
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Thank you, Bernhard, for that statement. Here is an example of just what you say:

"When a point is made by the same person over and over, such as the prevalence of “Reverse Well” tuning, by the use of endless anecdotes, I put it in the category of Fairy Tales and Sea Stories."

Rather than explaining to Mark that "reverse well" is a commonly made error in tuning which results in a crude, backwards or inverted pattern of tonality, the opposite of what would be expect from a well temperament, this person chooses instead to attack the reputation and the credibility of the person who uses the term.

I have for many years encountered the disbelief from technicians that reverse well could be as pervasive as I have often said it is. None of that disbelief however can change the actual observations I have made: at least 90% of all aural tunings which were intended to be ET are actually some form of reverse well, from a very slight and innocuous departure from ET all the way to a backwards 1/4 comma meantone. I know what I have heard and I have heard it everywhere I have been, plain and simple. There is a reason why it happens and I have identified that as well.

In order to combat a problem, one has to first accept that the problem exists. Denial of the problem does not resolve the problem, it only makes it go unrecognized. Then, the problem itself is represented as something it is not, namely ET. Reverse well is not ET. So, we have people who don't know the difference between reverse well and ET but who condemn, mock and ridicule any purposefully tuned non-ET.

George Orwell was very clever in recognizing this kind of brutally enforced ignorance: "Ignorance is strength". Keep the truth suppressed, believe only what you want to believe and keep everyone in ignorance through intimidation.

As I see it, there has been only one organized way to spread the knowledge of what true ET is and to get technicians to tune it consistently well. There is a rule posted at the top of this forum which forbids anyone from saying what organized way to get most technicians who choose to follow that path is. No one may respond to it but it may be copied and pasted in posts as it has been done in this topic. No one may offer an objection or a counter opinion. Ignorance is strength. As long as the way most technicians could benefit by continuing education, networking and recognized credentials is forbidden and suppressed by rule, reverse well will prevail as standard tuning, not ET.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1343835 - 01/08/10 10:15 AM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Bernhard Stopper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 214
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos
Objective criticism hmmmmmm.. Let me see........ this statement here............

..."Get real Isaac, and keep your affective argumentation out of a forum of experts."...

I just absolutely love this statement. Reads like some here are very busy anointing themselves with labels in a self-congratulatory way, I am certainly hope that you do not dislocate your shoulder while you are busy patting yourself on the back.

Sorry we are all experts, you too or not? I don´t see a self-congratulatory label by my statement so. The statement is followed by objective arguments why i used it. Quoting it separately later, makes it appear strange of course.
_________________________
Bernhard Stopper
www.piano-stopper.de

Salieri: "Mediocrities everywhere, now and to come: I absolve you all! Amen! Amen! Amen!"
(Amadeus, the movie)

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#1343837 - 01/08/10 10:20 AM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3271
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Emmery, I have no argument with Peter's suggestion that technician focus on solid technique rather than dabble in alternative methods. However, pin setting technique is one problem and the difficulty of perfecting ET is another. Owen Jorgensen clearly found a strategy for teaching his students to tune ET by starting them with historical temperaments which featured pure and equal beating temperaments first and then moving them to ET. As a group, his students all excel in that and do not offer reverse well instead of ET. They know the difference.

The ET via Marpurg strategy is working for many students now and it follows that precedent. Those students are not likely to offer reverse well as a substitute for ET when they tune pianos for the public. I'm not about to back away from that.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1343841 - 01/08/10 10:25 AM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4949
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Bill:

My criticism is of using anecdotes as a proof. But you continue to see criticism of what you say as criticism of you, and take criticism personally.

How about a step by step sequence of how a tuner tunes "Reverse Well"?
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1343842 - 01/08/10 10:25 AM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3271
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Bernhard, there are certain people on here who enjoy doing that. It is OK for them to attack, mock and ridicule others but if anyone disagrees with them in any manner whatsoever, they take it very personally and react to it badly. You don't see objective arguments from them, you only see from them what they accuse others of doing when in fact, those they accuse have carefully avoided what they do so freely.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1343845 - 01/08/10 10:27 AM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3271
Loc: Madison, WI USA
"How about a step by step sequence of how a tuner tunes "Reverse Well"? I have already done that many times Jeff and I would gladly do it now but I have run out of time. I have to go to work now.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1343847 - 01/08/10 10:28 AM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Bernhard Stopper]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4215
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Originally Posted By: Bernhard Stopper
Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos
Objective criticism hmmmmmm.. Let me see........ this statement here............

..."Get real Isaac, and keep your affective argumentation out of a forum of experts."...

I just absolutely love this statement. Reads like some here are very busy anointing themselves with labels in a self-congratulatory way, I am certainly hope that you do not dislocate your shoulder while you are busy patting yourself on the back.

Sorry we are all experts, you too or not? I don´t see a self-congratulatory label by my statement so. The statement is followed by objective arguments why i used it. Quoting it separately later, makes it appear strange of course.



The statement stands on its own as a paragraph and it is implied within that statement that Isaac is not an expert.

Making a self-aggrandizing statement such as this only serves to diminish further the opinion the reader may have of the author.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1343852 - 01/08/10 10:32 AM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Bernhard Stopper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 214
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos

The statement stands on its own as a paragraph and it is implied within that statement that Isaac is not an expert.

Making a self-aggrandizing statement such as this only serves to diminish further the opinion the reader may have of the author.


Sorry can i remember you that it was you who set the statement concerning Isaac alone.
And let me also remember that my statements were a return of a pseudo-objective statement of Isaac.





Edited by Bernhard Stopper (01/08/10 01:06 PM)
_________________________
Bernhard Stopper
www.piano-stopper.de

Salieri: "Mediocrities everywhere, now and to come: I absolve you all! Amen! Amen! Amen!"
(Amadeus, the movie)

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#1343853 - 01/08/10 10:34 AM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Bernhard Stopper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 214
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Bernhard, there are certain people on here who enjoy doing that. It is OK for them to attack, mock and ridicule others but if anyone disagrees with them in any manner whatsoever, they take it very personally and react to it badly. You don't see objective arguments from them, you only see from them what they accuse others of doing when in fact, those they accuse have carefully avoided what they do so freely.


Thank you Bill, wise man.
_________________________
Bernhard Stopper
www.piano-stopper.de

Salieri: "Mediocrities everywhere, now and to come: I absolve you all! Amen! Amen! Amen!"
(Amadeus, the movie)

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#1343860 - 01/08/10 10:44 AM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Peter Sumner- Piano Technician Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 852
Loc: San Francisco
Now we're getting somewhere....

I learned how to speak french by being taught phonetics in order to get the pronunciation correct, or at least, better....the phonetic were dropped after the first year as we progressed.
If, by learning to tune using the method, a student gets the basics faster and is able to navigate towards effectiveness then it has my vote.

My main premise is NOT an attack on historic tunings...my fourth para of my first post makes the point...

My main beef is that if as much 'hot air' was expelled in an attempt to get technicians to seek excellence in the basics, the trade would be in much better shape....
If folks are getting bored learning the basics they're not paying attention...we should all be perennial students. I personally picked up a great tip yesterday on pin setting and rendering on a Shigeru Kawai which had been baffling me.

I appreciate all the comments and interest that has been shown here and maybe it's time for a new thread as to how we 'raise the bar' in the basics.....
_________________________
Peter Sumner
Concert Piano Technician



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#1343861 - 01/08/10 10:45 AM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2437
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
... As long as the way most technicians could benefit by continuing education, networking and recognized credentials is forbidden and suppressed by rule, reverse well will prevail as standard tuning, not ET.


Education that is highly qualified and offers credentials is generally done by schools, not organizations. Schools follow standards of schooling set out by governments, colleges and universities and answer to them. Organizations follow their own rules. What sets them apart is that there is no school in existence that demands from their graduates a ransom every year to keep their diploma valid....period. Therefore the PTG does not share the same light as schools do and should not be compared to them.

Networking can be with anyone, PTG or not. Promoting networking amongst a single organizations members is fine for their own website, literature ect. It has no place on a public forum that wishes not to to be the venue for that sort of thing. This is how unions form...push away the independents, brainwash people into thinking there is no other way. We can see where the unions have got us.

Bill, you can call our temperaments whatever you wish. As long as our customers can play in all keys with a generally indistiguishable change of effect/colour, it sounds musical and they are pleased...its ET for them and for me.


Edited by Emmery (01/08/10 10:47 AM)
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1343875 - 01/08/10 11:03 AM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
JBE Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/17/09
Posts: 377
Loc: USA
[quote=Bill As I see it, there has been only one organized way to spread the knowledge of what true ET is and to get technicians to tune it consistently well. There is a rule posted at the top of this forum which forbids anyone from saying what organized way to get most technicians who choose to follow that path is. No one may respond to it but it may be copied and pasted in posts as it has been done in this topic. No one may offer an objection or a counter opinion. Ignorance is strength. As long as the way most technicians could benefit by continuing education, networking and recognized credentials is forbidden and suppressed by rule, reverse well will prevail as standard tuning, not ET. [/quote]



Bill, The rule does not state that you cannot mention PTG and RPT's. It just states that you should not use it (PTG) like a religious conviction that is beaten over everyone's heads in order to "save them". Save them from what? Doing things in a way that is different than the way you would do them?

There are other paths, and you can win more hearts and minds if you limit the misguided zealotry.

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#1343962 - 01/08/10 01:06 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Bernhard Stopper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 214
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos


The statement stands on its own as a paragraph and it is implied within that statement that Isaac is not an expert.

Making a self-aggrandizing statement such as this only serves to diminish further the opinion the reader may have of the author.


Isaacs expertise is out of question. We all know that he is the best tuner on earth (quote from the christmas gift thread) (and of course i know that he is kinda kidding there...)


Originally Posted By: Kamin

Here is my Christmas gift to my colleagues who repair pianos :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9-hxNV3hqc

"The very best method to unglue shanks from butts

Isaac OLEG

Piano Tuner & Technician

Inventor of the most famous "Hair Iron method"

worldwide reputed (and eventually in the neighors of world)

best tuner on earth (but it is another story)"


But with pseudo-objective statements (a subjective statement that cannot be recognized immediately as a subjective one, they are worse than plain subjective ones, like "i personally don´t like...") he is questioning his expertise.






Edited by Bernhard Stopper (01/08/10 01:15 PM)
_________________________
Bernhard Stopper
www.piano-stopper.de

Salieri: "Mediocrities everywhere, now and to come: I absolve you all! Amen! Amen! Amen!"
(Amadeus, the movie)

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#1344014 - 01/08/10 02:27 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4949
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
"How about a step by step sequence of how a tuner tunes "Reverse Well"? I have already done that many times Jeff and I would gladly do it now but I have run out of time. I have to go to work now.


Yes please, Bill.

How about starting a new Topic, though. This one is kind of messy. I will make every effort to discuss the subject objectively. If you do likewise, it should be constructive.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1344017 - 01/08/10 02:29 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Bernhard Stopper]
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1665
Loc: Chicagoland
I see an example of a sloppy argument for ET repeating itself here... It goes something like this: (correct me if I'm misrepresenting anything written)

I tune ET because that's my intent, and that's what I call it. While tuning to the level of making a master tuning for the exam takes a lot of time, you can do a fine job by just getting the temperament done so that the thirds progress pretty well. It doesn't really matter if it isn't up to the eveness of a master tuning - my clients seem to be happy with my work. No one has ever asked me to do anything differently...

So we have this fairly loose approach to ET - so what if things aren't just right - the piano plays fine, the unisons are solid and it's at pitch.

Then when another tuning approach which respects the tonal approach of Western music theory is talked about - all of a sudden any difference must create a problem or make the piano unplayable???

I'd urge anyone that would like to understand this a little more to go to rollingball.com and spend some time looking at the graphs of historical and modern alternate temperaments.

Equal temperament is represented by a set of even sized blocks from left to right. If you just look at the thumbnails for well/victorian well and modern well temperaments, you should be able to see a pattern.(I couldn't post some of them here - someone else give it a try, please?) Kindof a bell-shaped curve represents potential energy - less at the left and right than the middle. Left and right represents the top of the circle of fifths.

There is a range - steep bell curves to very minor bell shapes. There's even a historical reference to reverse well - DeMorgan from 1843. For a class I even created the penny temperament under the modern wells. I tuned this to show what a maximum of one cent offset from ET in a purposefull direction would sound like. The class heard the difference from an accurate ET.

What I don't often hear talked about is the range of error while tuning. If your target is a straight line, any small deviation makes a change - the line is no longer straight. If your target is a curve, especially one of the steeper curves and some errors are made, you still end up with a curve - you will end up with some kind of well temperament - maybe just not the one you were aiming for.

Which leads to this - if your implementation of ET is less strict than creating a master tuning, then by KNOWING the basic direction of historical tempering you can push your errors in that direction instead of letting them fall in a mish-mash pattern.

Ron Koval
chicagoland
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


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