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#1344024 - 01/08/10 02:35 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: RonTuner]
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1665
Loc: Chicagoland
To go back to the first post about tuning accuracy and pin/string control - that is perhaps the best argument for setting aside aural learning and embracing electronic tuning devices for all student tuners. No kindof, close enough - either it stays, or it doesn't - it's right there in the display for the student to see.

Ron Koval
chicagoland
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


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#1344044 - 01/08/10 03:07 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: RonTuner]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21674
Loc: Oakland
It could be that electronic tuning devices impede learning tuning accuracy and pin control. If you are doing several aural checks, each one checks your accuracy, compared to checking only with a device.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1344055 - 01/08/10 03:25 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: RonTuner]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2449
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Originally Posted By: RonTuner
To go back to the first post about tuning accuracy and pin/string control - that is perhaps the best argument for setting aside aural learning and embracing electronic tuning devices for all student tuners. No kindof, close enough - either it stays, or it doesn't - it's right there in the display for the student to see.

Ron Koval
chicagoland


You wouldn't have to set aural tuning aside since it helps in many ways, the ETD can just be used as a tool in the verification of the note slipping or not. The main setbacks with aural tuning checks for this purpose, compared to ETD is that A) A student may not know which note is the one that slipped on an aural check B) They would have to go to a third reference to compare C) The accuracy of the ETD surpasses the ear in distinguishing slips of say 1/3 cent or less...even higher with inexperienced tuners.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1344062 - 01/08/10 03:39 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Emmery]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7901
Loc: France
yes , but the drawback of this is that you don't learn as much to verify with the usual checks, the display being disturbed and changing note if you play more than one (in automatic mode).

It is a very useful tool, but you are tempted to use it more than necessarily, and it may also change a little the way you tune (eventually for the best, but this is not not certain) . I see that as a wonderful tool in the hands of an advanced student (some of them are showing you lot of things).

It generally slows your hearing because yours eyes are way slower than your ears, and I am unsure it is possible to focus on visualization and hearing at the same time (to me it is not, the 2 senses dont tune well together the ear waits for the eye).
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#1344166 - 01/08/10 06:02 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Olek]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2449
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Originally Posted By: Kamin


....It (ETD) generally slows your hearing because yours eyes are way slower than your ears, and I am unsure it is possible to focus on visualization and hearing at the same time (to me it is not, the 2 senses dont tune well together the ear waits for the eye).


Kamin, scientific studies have shown that the ears and the eyes work together almost seamlessly. This is one of the reasons that many aural tuners find the ETD to be such an asset after getting used to it.

From a physical perspective the eyes process information in the same way and relatively the same speed as ears do, the neural pathways are relatively the same and operate at the same speed to the brain for processing.

Lastly, recent evidence from scientists are pointing in the direction that how the inner ear works and particular areas of the basilar membrane and cochlea function in a far different way from what we have thought. It was always assumed that there was reverse wave propagation in the cochlea...this is now known to be not true. Most importantly, none of us share exactly the same sensitivity to all the bandwidths of frequency. Genetics, partial low/high frequency loss, differing physical makeup of the inner ear components and even differing diets/body chemistry can effect what a person perceives to be hearing compared to another person.

In this respect, two people with reasonably good vision will still see and interpret a spinner on an ETD pretty well the same way and will get similar results. It does not pass through ears that filter what is being heard before processing.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1344185 - 01/08/10 06:39 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Peter Sumner- Piano Technician]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3272
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Peter Sumner- Piano Technician
Now we're getting somewhere....

I learned how to speak french by being taught phonetics in order to get the pronunciation correct, or at least, better....the phonetic were dropped after the first year as we progressed.
If, by learning to tune using the method, a student gets the basics faster and is able to navigate towards effectiveness then it has my vote.

My main premise is NOT an attack on historic tunings...my fourth para of my first post makes the point...

My main beef is that if as much 'hot air' was expelled in an attempt to get technicians to seek excellence in the basics, the trade would be in much better shape....
If folks are getting bored learning the basics they're not paying attention...we should all be perennial students. I personally picked up a great tip yesterday on pin setting and rendering on a Shigeru Kawai which had been baffling me.

I appreciate all the comments and interest that has been shown here and maybe it's time for a new thread as to how we 'raise the bar' in the basics.....


Now you're really talking, Peter. I can assume and forgive that you meant no harm with the title post, "hysterical tunings". For me, that has been a too often told joke, like the "You can tune a piano but you can't tuna fish". I cannot tell you how many times, when I was deeply concentrating on a stage when some stage hand walked up, said that and laughed at his own joke. I did not laugh.

Likewise, I have heard far too many technicians with no experience whatsoever in historical temperaments, whose only concept of that has been wildly dissonant wolves, dismiss the entire idea as "hysterical" and similarly laugh at their own joke. Owen Jorgensen was a quiet and reserved man, very mild in mannerisms but he did not appreciate the humor in that joke. It provoked and perturbed him as it does me.

One year, PTG sent out a preliminary schedule of classes to be presented at the convention. There is was, "Hysterical Temperaments". While I am sure that whoever wrote that meant no offense by it, the PTG home office was quickly informed about how offensive it really was and the wording was promptly changed.

You and I should really have no disputes. You are a promoter of excellence in the craft of piano technology just as I am. I admire your accomplishments and respect your knowledge and skills, I always have. I only ask you to keep an open mind.

There is a place within this craft for the servicing of instruments of lesser quality through basic and solid technique. There is a place for tuning that goes beyond the scope of what is considered standard practice. Everyone has the right to their own opinion and to practice their trade with dignity.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1344188 - 01/08/10 06:42 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Emmery]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3272
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Emmery
[quote=Bill Bremmer RPT]
Bill, you can call our temperaments whatever you wish. As long as our customers can play in all keys with a generally indistiguishable change of effect/colour, it sounds musical and they are pleased...its ET for them and for me.


The precise definition of ET as it was understood in the late 19th Century. Thank you!
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1344202 - 01/08/10 07:03 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2449
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
[quote=Emmery][quote=Bill Bremmer RPT]
The precise definition of ET as it was understood in the late 19th Century. Thank you!


..And I hear from some bartenders that you can make a Martini extra dry if you lean over the glass and whisper the word "Vermouth" a couple times.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1344209 - 01/08/10 07:19 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Piano Guy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 400
Loc: Southern Ontario,Canada
[/quote]There is a place within this craft for the servicing of instruments of lesser quality through basic and solid technique. There is a place for tuning that goes beyond the scope of what is considered standard practice. Everyone has the right to their own opinion and to practice their trade with dignity.[/quote]

My comprehension must be lower than everybody's...but the sense I get from all this appears to be yours is right and everybody's is wrong..... and you have a large organization and an untold list of people who agree...


Edited by Piano Guy (01/08/10 07:20 PM)
_________________________
Richard, the"Piano Guy"
Piano Moving Tuning & Repair
From London ON to Fort Erie ON

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#1344247 - 01/08/10 08:14 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Olek]
JBE Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/17/09
Posts: 377
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Kamin
Sorry Berhard, was not intended to agress you in any sort.

Music is based on subjective thoughts as well, so I feel free to give my impressions. Too bad if that makes me look as if I dont know what I am speaking of.

To be honest I dont really know what give me tonal impression. I strongly suspect it is due for one part to the variations in beat speeds, that serve us as inconsciently ruling the tonal output.

at the keyboard, the fact that more black keys are played add something in terms of tactile sensations , but yes I'll ask my brother, I highly trust him in that regard (but hi plays violin, even if often with pianists)

I said yet I'll ask him and I'll let you know his answer.

I am not afraid at all to look as an amateur that fire inconsistent ideas !!! I am from the dark side !!

Yes fifth Cordier have a larger span than yours, more agitated, may be that "agitation" is what I refer to for tonality.

agitate, agitate, it will always reamain something in the end (old Chines proverb) !

Cheers !



Isaac. Don't worry about your disagreement with Bernhard Stopper. I really enjoy reading your posts, you have a great deal of interesting knowledge that I can... kind of understand sometimes. laugh Keep it coming at us.

and Bernhard is great too. I like hearing him....try to sell his machine.....just kidding Bernhard. I appreciate and enjoy your expertise and views.

As we all know, piano tech. work is very serious business, seemingly too serious sometimes.
I enjoy coming here and reading, partly for entertainment, partly for education, sometimes to throw my two cents in freely, and a great deal of the time because there is humor here, where we can relax in a piano tech. environment in a different way than while working. This is a place where we can discuss, agree, and disagree about the subject we all care deeply about......piano service.

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#1344250 - 01/08/10 08:19 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: UnrightTooner]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3272
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
"How about a step by step sequence of how a tuner tunes "Reverse Well"? I have already done that many times Jeff and I would gladly do it now but I have run out of time. I have to go to work now.


Yes please, Bill.

How about starting a new Topic, though. This one is kind of messy. I will make every effort to discuss the subject objectively. If you do likewise, it should be constructive.


I will do that since I should have a new, "What the HELL is Reverse Well?" article for my website anyway. I can leave the "HELL" part out of the title just to make it less inflammatory if you think that would be wise.

I will tell you in advance that I believe the problem has to do with the typical tuning sequence used which I know has been a source of irritation for you. I fully understand where you come from on that but I also know what I have witnessed. So, try to keep an open mind about it.

I wonder if you can tell me when you consider consistent anecdotal evidence to change from being merely anecdotal to actual proof or at least evidence of a trend? I plan to research the definition of anecdotal evidence versus proof. It seems to me that from what I have heard, that drug companies consider a medication to be "effective" when anywhere above a 20% rate is achieved. It is "proven effective" if it only works one in five times.

So, how about at least 9 in 10 times? You know I have said that and I think I could prove it with statistics if I really wanted to. The very first piano I saw today was one of them. I called a local technician friend of mine just to say, "Here it is!" I only wish I could have made a recording of it just to show how reverse the reverse well really was.

For me, the single most distinguishing factor is when the key of C Major is the very worst sounding key of all. There it was! A C4-E4 M3 that beat so fast, that the beats were barely discernible. Yet the M3's B3-D#4 and C#4-F4 beat gently and the triads sounded sweet. That is not what would be expected if the piano had been tuned in a true ET!

If I wanted to take the time to do so, I could compile a list of numerical readings. I started doing that once for Pianotech when other technicians didn't believe me. After a couple dozen pianos, they said, "Enough already, we get your point!"

Sure, the first piano I had to tune today was out of tune due to seasonal conditions. It was a nice Mason & Hamlin grand used for music instruction. Any technician can tell if the last tuning was any good in spite of what humidity changes cause. If the previous temperament had really been equal, would it have somehow morphed into reverse well? Would my EBVT somehow morph the opposite way into quasi ET? I don't think so.

So, if you will take me seriously, I will create a new post concerning Reverse Well. I surely don't want to see that you challenge everything I say with disbelief and contradiction just for the sake of it. Let me know how you think I should approach it.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1344267 - 01/08/10 08:38 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Piano Guy]
JBE Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/17/09
Posts: 377
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Piano Guy
[/quote]There is a place within this craft for the servicing of instruments of lesser quality through basic and solid technique. There is a place for tuning that goes beyond the scope of what is considered standard practice. Everyone has the right to their own opinion and to practice their trade with dignity.


My comprehension must be lower than every body's...but the sense I get from all this appears to be yours is right and every body's is wrong..... and you have a large organization and an untold list of people who agree... [/quote]



I don't think it was meant the way you perceived it. I think he was responding to Peter Sumner's concern that beginners are not focusing enough on the basics before they move on to other techniques. I think they were in the process of resolving this ugly battle.

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#1344308 - 01/08/10 09:33 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: RonTuner]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted By: Ron Koval

I'd urge anyone that would like to understand this a little more to go to rollingball.com and spend some time looking at the graphs of historical and modern alternate temperaments.

Equal temperament is represented by a set of even sized blocks from left to right. If you just look at the thumbnails for well/victorian well and modern well temperaments, you should be able to see a pattern.(I couldn't post some of them here - someone else give it a try, please?)


Hi Ron,

let me start by saying that I very much like your open-minded attitude and your curiousness. I also really appreciate your educational skills - I've watched your youtube videos, and I've learned a lot from them.

Hope I can give something in return by making the thumbnails - as well as the links the refer to - available here. This forum seems to have a limit of 10 pics per post, so I have to split it up into several posts.

All links are courtesy of Jason Kanter (www.rollingball.com).

WELL (1 of 3):



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#1344309 - 01/08/10 09:34 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: pppat]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
WELL (...cont'd, 2 of 3)



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#1344311 - 01/08/10 09:36 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: pppat]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
WELL (...cont'd, 3/3)




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#1344314 - 01/08/10 09:39 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: pppat]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
VICTORIAN WELL:


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#1344318 - 01/08/10 09:41 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: pppat]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
MODERN WELL (1 of 2):


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#1344319 - 01/08/10 09:42 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: pppat]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
MODERN WELL (cont'd, 2/2):



--- all above links courtesy of Jason Kanter at www.rollingball.com ---
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

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#1344383 - 01/08/10 11:08 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: pppat]
Gadzar Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1817
Loc: Mexico City

Thanks pppat,

So here are graphs of Well and Reverse Well temperaments.



The effect of a Reverse Well temperament on the music composed for Well temperament is disastrous, it will destroy all the mood intended by the composer when choosing a key.

It would be like playing in F# Major Bach's Well Tempered Clavier Prelude N° 1 originally written in C major.
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1344494 - 01/09/10 03:30 AM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Emmery]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7901
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Emmery
[quote=Kamin]



In this respect, two people with reasonably good vision will still see and interpret a spinner on an ETD pretty well the same way and will get similar results. It does not pass through ears that filter what is being heard before processing.


Ok I trust you - I like to have links for references but have no reason not to trust you.

But with All EDT I have used (practically all of them) , when I am listening I can't see the spinner,and I always have felt a delay betwenn what I had at hand with my ears and what the spinner was showing. In that case it have to do with the movement that is reproduced by the screen (at how many frames /second ?) or the delay needed by the circuitry.

I was really tracing that to a speed difference in our perceptions.
Those libks or reference should certainly help me there to make up my mind , certainly test have been done with a visual and an auditive signal comparative, then asking for a reflex (I recall having see a similar test but it was long time ago, the hand was way slower for a visual reflex than for an auditive one (something about driving a car I guess)

The main problem is that the moment of tone we have to work with while tuning unisons is not treated by the EDT fast enough, and as we take some kind of hearing rythhm while tuning for pitch we may well develop a tendancy to listen at the same speed when tuning unison (not backed up , just an idea) usually the hearing may switch to another mode for unisons.

I agree there is not a "huge problem" of visualization or hearing with EDT, those are only side effects, but they may give a less than optimum habit to a student if he is not well driven by a more advanced tuner.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#1344500 - 01/09/10 03:52 AM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7901
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
"How about a step by step sequence of how a tuner tunes "Reverse Well"? I have already done that many times Jeff and I would gladly do it now but I have run out of time. I have to go to work now.

How about starting a new Topic, though. This one is kind of messy. I will make every effort to discuss the subject objectively. If you do likewise, it should be constructive.


Bill , may be you should consider buying a Zomm H2 or similar recording device that fit in the pocket. The you could give us samples of the infamous "reverse Well".

It is due to non tempering of the first 5ths, if I understand well. The same may happen here based on A's most probably then.

many beginning tuners have problems setting the size of the first octave, certainly. lack of stability will also lower the first plain wire more because they have less tension (similar loss of tension will give higher pitch change)

On cheap pianos or spinets with high iH(the ones that are more prone to be tuned by beginners) the high iH of this region push the ear to naturally stretch the fifths more.

Hence the interest for ladder of M3ds as a foundation, of course, using a larger span for tempering also helps by using more intervals in a more moderate iH zone, to better temper the whole zone.

I've find it very instructive to use a 2 octaves temperament with ladder of 3ds, because it shows pretty well where are the effects of iH and what they push you to (when you have nicely progressive thirds and you discover that the 5th behavior is changing thru the break.

















Edited by Kamin (01/09/10 03:57 AM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#1344568 - 01/09/10 08:10 AM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Olek]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4949
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Bill:

I see you and me as a pair of old alley cats sometimes, which is perfectly OK, except when we keep the neighborhood up at night with our yowling. smile If nothing else, we could try to practice civility in a Reverse Well Topic.

The drug effectiveness analogy seems to be a good one. If the “Quackmatic” drug company says that their experience shows that one of their products is effective, wouldn’t you want to know if an independent testing facility agrees? Especially if you have doubts because the drug they are promoting is for an illness that nobody else mentions.

So you say there is a prevalence of a certain tuning error, but I do not hear about this from others. But we can really just leave that aside and look at how a certain sequence causes a certain error. If it is as you say (which is anecdotal, and cannot be proven to be untrue) there should be a cause and effect that we can look at.

So, yes, can you please start a new Topic that shows what the sequence is that tuners use to create a Reverse Well Temperament? It would probably be best to remain objective and not mention that you think it sounds awful (it may sound wonderful to others). You know like Joe Friday, “Just the Facts, Ma’am.”
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1344714 - 01/09/10 12:15 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Gadzar]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3272
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Gadzar

Thanks pppat,

So here are graphs of Well and Reverse Well temperaments.



The effect of a Reverse Well temperament on the music composed for Well temperament is disastrous, it will destroy all the mood intended by the composer when choosing a key.

It would be like playing in F# Major Bach's Well Tempered Clavier Prelude N° 1 originally written in C major.




Thank you very much for that Raphael. I did not know there was a reverse well graph on Jason Kanter's website. It is interesting that the one you show came from 1808.

There are any number of technicians who say that they have from time to time tuned one non-ET or another, just for themselves and sometimes even a client but they inevitably returned to ET. All well and good. If someone wants to try an experiment, maybe they should try the reverse well that you posted. Just enter the figures from the graph in the "temperament" page of the ETD and tune the piano to that. Now try any piece in any key but keep a barf bag handy because you will need it!

Now, the EBVT III is a very mild WT. None of the deviations from ET are very large and that is what permits it to be used for any and all music. Anyone can create a rather typical reverse-well model by simply taking the correction figures for the EBVT and transposing them either up or down 1/2 step.

Instead of the intended enhancement of all music, what you would get is a kind of confused, out of focus harmony. Where you would expect harmoniousness, you would get a slightly harsh edge (like I heard from the piano at the church in Los Angeles at Christmas time). Where you expect energy, power and boldness, you would get a lifeless sound.

It could still be perceived as more or less "equal" as the EBVT III usually is. Even piano technicians often say they really can't tell what the difference is when they hear music played in the EBVT III but they usually also say the piano does sound good. Only when they play intervals the way they would to test for ET do they clearly hear that the EBVT III is different.

So, a "reverse EBVT III", if you will, would simply present a state of mild confusion. You wouldn't be able to distinguish one key very well from the other. That is what happens with most reverse well tunings and the reason they go unrecognized for what they are. They are not really ET and they don't really help the music sound better but they are usually not so bad as to completely destroy the music. If the unisons and octaves sound good, the pianist and listeners simply accept the sound as the usual.

From what I have observed, many people, all over North America and perhaps all over the world have become accustomed to the sound of a mild reverse well and have never known anything but that. The absolute reverse image of a well temperament of course is never deliberately constructed. The temperament is more likely to just be "kind of, sort of, pretty even" but the beat rates of the M3s in C, F and G are always the fastest and those of F#, B and D-flat are always the slowest.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1344730 - 01/09/10 12:33 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Olek]
JBE Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/17/09
Posts: 377
Loc: USA
[quote=Kamin][quote=Emmery]



In this respect, two people with reasonably good vision will still see and interpret a spinner on an ETD pretty well the same way and will get similar results. It does not pass through ears that filter what is being heard before processing. But with All EDT I have used (practically all of them) , when I am listening I can't see the spinner,and I always have felt a delay between what I had at hand with my ears and what the spinner was showing. In that case it have to do with the movement that is reproduced by the screen (at how many frames /second ?) or the delay needed by the circuitry.[quote]



That is one advantage to the LED display that the SAT uses.
I prefer the Verituner calculations but I use the SAT for pitch raises, partly because the lights are perceived by the brain as quickly as the sound is, without the delay like the LCD and its much faster. I love both devices for different reasons.

I would be excited to see an invention like an LED Cube. A very small box with nothing but a circular LED light display and a Blue Tooth for connecting to any of the other ETD's.

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#1344762 - 01/09/10 01:18 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1077
Loc: Sicily - Italy

This is what I understand from what I read:

Most of the (or many) times, Bill, you realize that a tuner has not tuned ET, when he/she was meant to, so being expected by the customer. Instead of ET, some Revers Well happened to be tuned.

I Ask:

1) Leave piano and seasonal reasons aside, what do you think the cause may be? The school? The tuner's way?

You Bill are promoting and hoping to spread EBVT. Yet, I'm not sure about what is motivating you. Yes, I have an idea, but I can not really clear it up. Maybe you can help me with some breaf and simple feedback:

2) Are you doing this because you think EBVT is easy to tune, or easyer than ET?
3) Are you doing this because you think EBVT sounds better than true ET?
4) Do you think ET, when true ET, produces a sterile sound?
5) Do you think ET, when true ET, produces non-interesting harmony?
6) When you met Stopper, did you compare your EBVT tuning with Stopper's ETD or aural tuning? Did you mature a personal preference?
7) Do you think ETD tuning of EBVT would result in better overall sound than ETD tuning of true ET?
8) Considering the loss of "in tuning", caused by playing and all other factors, have you got any clue, from tests or experience, about EBVT's decay, compared with true ET's decay?

Best regards, a.c.

.





Edited by alfredo capurso (01/09/10 01:37 PM)
Edit Reason: spelling mistakes
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alfredo

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#1344805 - 01/09/10 01:55 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21674
Loc: Oakland
It looks as if the "reverse well tempering" is approximately a well tempering transposed down a half a step. If a well tempering is desirable, then this would be a desirable tempering for a singer who routinely transposes that way.

That is the crux of the both the advantage and the problem with unequal temperaments. They are not the same for all keys. Sometimes you want a key that sounds worse to sound better.

I look at my job as if it were to provide a gesso base for a painter. The painting might look better if it were not white, but it might look worse, too. That decision should not be up to me: it is up to the painter.
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#1344851 - 01/09/10 02:54 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: BDB]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
If I try to recall what I've heard as a piano player before I started tuning, and combine that with what I've learned after (much due to great help from all of you at this forum!), I have a theory...

I think Bill's idea of reverse well is to be taken seriously, because the ramifications of that kind of temperament - in combination with dutyfully following the theory of ET - has very unpleasant side effects. I have to admit that I also have found myself guilty as charged several times... smile This is what I feel that happens:

  • Something - be it a wide F3-F4 to begin with, or favoring 5ths in the sequence, results in a wider than desired C4-E4 third.

  • The ET mantra - "beat rates should progress" - forces the tuner to make C#4-F4 and G#3-F4 beat faster than their neighboring intervals a half step below (C4-E4, G#3-F4). What to do? raise F4.

  • From there and on, there is no return. The ascending thirds will be very wide. Yes, you can say that this is a personal choice of stretch, but IMHO it sounds like crap. I really don't like that sound inside the harmonically important C3-C5 range.

  • String players might adjust, but horn players get really mad. Especially trombone players, who have to force the very top of their register higher than anybody really would wish to hear wink

  • I do not agree that ET would be some neutral status quo that would guarantee pianos to stay acceptable longer than UT-tuned pianos. This tweaked 4th octave is very sensitive to pitch changes due to outer factors. I've heard this many times - a week later the already too wide 3rds will often have raised even more, making the whole upper section of the most important harmonical range practically unusable.

I will start carrying my Zoom H4 with me, and when I encounter this kind of tuning, I'll post it here. Personally I'd like to LISTEN more in this forum!

There is really no need for a highly raised musical bar, this is one of the few forums where you aren't evaluated from your piano playing skills (thank you God smile )

Neither do the recordings have to be of above average quality. Todays digital possibilities makes it possible for us all to make decent recordings that very easily reveals temperament, stretch aso. There are several sites that will provide web space for posting, and linking to here.

So why not use the opportunity? "A 5 Mb sound file says more than a 1000 words..." wink


Edited by pppat (01/09/10 03:00 PM)
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

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#1345104 - 01/09/10 07:08 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Emmery]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7901
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Emmery
Originally Posted By: Kamin


....It (ETD) generally slows your hearing because yours eyes are way slower than your ears, and I am unsure it is possible to focus on visualization and hearing at the same time (to me it is not, the 2 senses dont tune well together the ear waits for the eye).


Kamin, scientific studies have shown that the ears and the eyes work together almost seamlessly. This is one of the reasons that many aural tuners find the ETD to be such an asset after getting used to it.

From a physical perspective the eyes process information in the same way and relatively the same speed as ears do, the neural pathways are relatively the same and operate at the same speed to the brain for processing.

Lastly, recent evidence from scientists are pointing in the direction that how the inner ear works and particular areas of the basilar membrane and cochlea function in a far different way from what we have thought. It was always assumed that there was reverse wave propagation in the cochlea...this is now known to be not true. Most importantly, none of us share exactly the same sensitivity to all the bandwidths of frequency. Genetics, partial low/high frequency loss, differing physical makeup of the inner ear components and even differing diets/body chemistry can effect what a person perceives to be hearing compared to another person.

In this respect, two people with reasonably good vision will still see and interpret a spinner on an ETD pretty well the same way and will get similar results. It does not pass through ears that filter what is being heard before processing.


Hello, this was realy unclear to me, I made some search and find different places where reaction test have been made , here they state that the ear is twice as fast as the eye , the stimuli is treated twice as fast.
Here is the link :
http://www.springerlink.com/content/x513110157253135/

If new information have been find that say the opposite, and you have some references I like to read that as well.

That said I am of the auditive kind, (and kinesthetic) and not much of the visual kind so my case is may be different, but when tuning my ears are faster than my eyes which is evidence I guess.


Sorry if this is off topic, I wish I could move my posting on another thread it is another subject (EDT, sight and hearing)


Edited by Kamin (01/09/10 07:13 PM)
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#1345116 - 01/09/10 07:23 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: pppat]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7901
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: pppat

[*]The ET mantra - "beat rates should progress" - forces the tuner to make C#4-F4 and G#3-F4 beat faster than their neighboring intervals a half step below (C4-E4, G#3-F4). What to do? raise F4.


if then, the fourth G#3 C#4 and above are too large and beat too much you have a mistake yet lower and it is not that difficult to check that before going farther.
Yes a beginner will tend to let the high end of the temperament beat too fast, as I stated yet the lower third is in a more pronounced iH zone on some pianos, and the thirds there are easely too slow (hence the mistake on the opposite).

Even the basic EDT tuning can provide too fast acceleration of thirds in that region because it compute based on iH (I dont know how to explain that but it happens)

If the tuner even the 3ds ladder by ear he will often have a very slightly slower progression at the beginning of the treble. the speed change is very little between the 2 ways but I have seen it. The edt reconcilitates the speed a little higher so to avoid too large double octave in octave 5.

But one can change the model used (VT100 )if he does not please him.

I agree with you about the recordings, I tune very little those days because I have large repairs going on. But I am expecting a recording for tomorrow.

Bye !
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#1345158 - 01/09/10 07:55 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Olek]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted By: Kamin
Originally Posted By: pppat

[*]The ET mantra - "beat rates should progress" - forces the tuner to make C#4-F4 and G#3-F4 beat faster than their neighboring intervals a half step below (C4-E4, G#3-F4). What to do? raise F4.


if then, the fourth G#3 C#4 and above are too large and beat too much you have a mistake yet lower and it is not that difficult to check that before going farther.

Why would an adjustment of F4 make the G#3-C#4 too wide? It's the 3rd (C#4-F4), the 6th (G#3-F4), and the 4th (C4-F4) that suffer.

Originally Posted By: Kamin

Yes a beginner will tend to let the high end of the temperament beat too fast, as I stated yet the lower third is in a more pronounced iH zone on some pianos, and the thirds there are easely too slow (hence the mistake on the opposite).

With all due respect, Isaac, and without placing people over here onto any beginner-intermediate-advanced-pro scale, I can say that I've experienced this phenomenon myself, as well as heard it many times from 'pro tuners'.

Originally Posted By: Kamin

If the tuner even the 3ds ladder by ear he will often have a very slightly slower progression at the beginning of the treble.

Could you be more specific about your definition of 'the beginning of the treble'?
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

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