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#1345188 - 01/09/10 08:27 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: pppat]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7665
Loc: France
Sorry I was not talking about you in particular, but just what I seem to understand from why those high 3ds tend to raise in speed too fast.

I mismatched in English it is not as simple.

If you raise the F4 the fourth will be faster so you cant, better lower the F3 if the octave is the problem, or change the division.
I find it very difficult to have a nice progression of 3ds between FA4 and till F5 or so (hence checking the 6ths is helpful,as you say and even better the 10th).

And I noticed that some tuning models proposed by EDT give a raise in 3ds speed which is faster than I like - while I am unsure where it comes from.

I am not talking of anyone specifically and certainly not you, but not all tuners are musicians, it may be difficult for a beginner that dont play piano or have little education in music. also because one feel unsecure with string/pin settling he tend to add stretch as a "security".

Does it relate to "Reverse well" , I dont know.

when I look at the graphs I see the 5ths that are tuned pure at the beginning of the sequence, if it begins with C and it is a huge mistake for a tuner so I dont really get it.
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#1345307 - 01/09/10 10:40 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Olek]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted By: Kamin
Sorry I was not talking about you in particular, but just what I seem to understand from why those high 3ds tend to raise in speed too fast.

I mismatched in English it is not as simple.

No offense taken here, Isaac, I just wanted to point out that I've experienced it myself as a novice, I still struggle with it every now and then as an intermediate tuner, and I've heard it from a lot of experienced professionals!

Originally Posted By: Kamin

If you raise the F4 the fourth will be faster so you cant, better lower the F3 if the octave is the problem, or change the division.
I find it very difficult to have a nice progression of 3ds between FA4 and till F5 or so (hence checking the 6ths is helpful,as you say and even better the 10th).

I agree! But for some reason, when the temperament F3-F4 works in its most basic way, that is, when the 3rds and 6ths speed up, many tuners just more or less leave it like that and go compensating the top notes instead, thus giving the situation i described.

Originally Posted By: Kamin

I am not talking of anyone specifically and certainly not you, but not all tuners are musicians, it may be difficult for a beginner that dont play piano or have little education in music. also because one feel unsecure with string/pin settling he tend to add stretch as a "security".

I agree completely. It took me a long time to become secure enough not to overcompensate trying to avoid too low notes because of mediocre pinsetting, and thus I left the notes a little bit higher.

Originally Posted By: Kamin

Does it relate to "Reverse well" , I dont know.

when I look at the graphs I see the 5ths that are tuned pure at the beginning of the sequence, if it begins with C and it is a huge mistake for a tuner so I dont really get it.

Well, I'd be curious about this sequence too, so let's hope that Bill and Jeff gets together in the new post that has been discussed recently!
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

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#1345673 - 01/10/10 12:35 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: BDB]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3237
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: BDB
It looks as if the "reverse well tempering" is approximately a well tempering transposed down a half a step. If a well tempering is desirable, then this would be a desirable tempering for a singer who routinely transposes that way.

That is the crux of the both the advantage and the problem with unequal temperaments. They are not the same for all keys. Sometimes you want a key that sounds worse to sound better.

I look at my job as if it were to provide a gesso base for a painter. The painting might look better if it were not white, but it might look worse, too. That decision should not be up to me: it is up to the painter.


Thank you for this thoughtful post, BDB. It is the kind I like to see you write. I have seen the "neutral pallet" idea before and it does have some merit. However, when you consider what I wrote to Patrick on his EBVT III trial thread, there is no way to find the kind of expression that is inherent with a well temperament by varying the tempo and the dynamics when playing ET. You can get some of it, yes but not all of it.

I recall the remarks of the German student pianist who played a Mason & Hamlin BB which I tuned in the EBVT III at the 2007 convention in Rochester, NY. He had played the Beethoven Waldstein Sonata. When asked for his reaction to the way the piano was tuned, he said, "It is remarkable. I found that when I wanted to make a certain expression, it was already there from the piano. I did not have to work so hard for it."

The more harmonious sound found in the simple keys of any well temperament is well understood by all. However, contrary to what most technicians suppose about the remote keys, that they would simply sound out of tune, I have found that pianists perceive that as power and energy.

Once, after a recital played in 1/7 comma meantone, the Czech artist told me, "In all my life, I have never dared to play a piano so softly. If I had tried that with any other piano, there would have been nothing musical about it. Yet, with this piano, I felt a force beneath my hands which I could control as I never could before. It was some kind of magic, the way this piano spoke to me!"

The issue about transposing for a vocalist is well taken. However, I have two comments about that and the EBVT III. I am a vocalist, so I am familiar with the need for transposing at times so that a particular selection will better fit my voice type or what I want to do with my voice at the moment.

For example, I use the Vaccai book of Italian songs for warm up. I use the edition for medium high voice. The other editions for low voice or high voice do not have all of those selections transposed by only a half step. They are at least a full step or a M3 up or down, one from the other. If a vocalist is at or near the limit of usable range, a half step is usually not enough of a transposition to make a difference. Therefore, if a transposition is needed, one may easily find another key with a similar character either a full step higher or lower. A M3 or 4th or 5th up or down could also be chosen for that matter. How much would a mere half step really help in most cases?

Now, considering the EBVT III, it does provide for a different character for each key but the differences as they follow the cycle of 5ths are very slight from one key to the next. The remote keys do have their energetic character but they are not so energetic as to be unusable.

For example, I have the score to "Oh Holy Night" which I often sing at Christmas time. I have the edition written in C Major and the accompaniment recorded on my player piano. I can and have transposed the key to D-flat and sung it that way. Transposing did give the accompaniment a different character but it was not so different that it was unusable or completely destructive to the music.

I have done that with the Vaccai Italian songs too. I may sometimes, actually want that slight "edge" that a half step transposition would provide. It would not be for the purpose of suiting my vocal range but in fact for the slightly different character and the energy that using a remote key would afford.

Here's another scenario: A group of people are having fun singing a song with many verses in the key of F Major tuned in the EBVT III. The choice of key is appropriate for that song. At the final verse, the pianist moves up a half step to F# Major for a little more energy during that final verse. This would often be done in ET and the increase in energy would be there both in pitch and a very slight increase in the beat rates of the M3's yes. If the piano is tuned in the EBVT III, there is simply an enhancement of that effect but not such a difference that it destroys the music.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1345696 - 01/10/10 12:58 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21583
Loc: Oakland
One of the consequences of a temperament other than equal temperament is that the tuning sequence becomes more of an issue. If you are tuning equal temperament and using a different reference, you can use the same steps from your reference and the result should be the same. This is why when you are tuning major thirds right off the back as part of the sequence that you are using, if your reference is A, the thirds should be C# and F, while if it is C, they should be E and G#. As you are tuning all intervals equally, the results will be the same.

However, if you are tuning an unequal temperament, the steps that make C the "calmest" key starting with an A fork will make D# the calmest if you use the same sequence starting with a C fork.

It takes a fair bit of work to make this correction. You could start from the point at which C is tuned using the sequence from A, working both forwards and backwards. However, if you have a test or reference from a note which should have been tuned before C, that will not work. You need to ignore the reference, perhaps finding a new one, and you will need different tests.
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Semipro Tech

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#1345715 - 01/10/10 01:29 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: alfredo capurso]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3237
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

This is what I understand from what I read:

Most of the (or many) times, Bill, you realize that a tuner has not tuned ET, when he/she was meant to, so being expected by the customer. Instead of ET, some Revers Well happened to be tuned.

I Ask:

1) Leave piano and seasonal reasons aside, what do you think the cause may be? The school? The tuner's way?


Alfredo, you are always so full of questions, I can hardly attempt to answer them all. The reason why reverse well exists is because of incomplete understanding of ET. You will have to read the new thread I will write about reverse well to understand everything.
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso


You Bill are promoting and hoping to spread EBVT. Yet, I'm not sure about what is motivating you. Yes, I have an idea, but I can not really clear it up. Maybe you can help me with some breaf and simple feedback:

2) Are you doing this because you think EBVT is easy to tune, or easyer than ET?


Yes, the EBVT is actually easier to tune perfectly than it is to tune ET perfectly, much easier, in fact but it is not the principle reason for me to use it or to offer the instructions to other technicians who may be interested in it. I do not view what I do as a kind of "promotion". That word implies selling or marketing which I have never done.
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

3) Are you doing this because you think EBVT sounds better than true ET?

Yes.
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

4) Do you think ET, when true ET, produces a sterile sound?

Yes.
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

5) Do you think ET, when true ET, produces non-interesting harmony?

Any piano sounds good when tuned in true ET with good octaves and unisons. We all agree with that. However, I find that a piano tuned in the EBVT and some other non-ET's sounds more interesting to me. I realize that not everyone would have the same opinion as I do on that. Every person has the right to their opinion and the right to express why that opinion is held, how it came to be, etc. No one has the right to insult another person because of disagreements regarding beliefs and opinions. What I find to be the most disturbing and irritating are insulting remarks made by people who have little or no knowledge and experience with the subject they ridicule.
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

6) When you met Stopper, did you compare your EBVT tuning with Stopper's ETD or aural tuning? Did you mature a personal preference?

We did not compare our tunings side by side. Herr Stopper met me in public and introduced himself. He was very friendly and affable. He attended a class I presented on how to tune the EBVT and I attended a session where he presented a piano tuned in his way. His piano sounded remarkably good and I was quite impressed with it.

Herr Stopper did find that there was at least some similarity to the way we both treated the octaves. His tuning did have some of the "pipe organ effect" which I know from mine. However, Herr Stopper's tuning is clearly ET and mine is clearly not ET. He believes in what he does and I believe in what I do, so we have a friendly mutual respect for each other which is the way it should be. What purpose would be served if we each mocked and ridiculed each other because we each have different opinions?

Herr Stopper is a very fine and exacting tuner (as well as a thoroughly versed technician)who believes in his ideas and puts them to work. His ideas work for him. His clients like the way he tunes and therefore he is successful.

My clients like the way I tune as well. In the area where I live, the use of non-ET's has been a long tradition. It works for me and my clients where I live. That is in spite of hearing and reading two decades worth of ridicule, mockery and criticism.

One could easily take the comment I had above that the EBVT is easier to tune than ET and make the comment that I "get away with tuning a sloppy temperament and pass it off to an unsuspecting public" and proceed to call it "unethical". I have received that very criticism now for 20 years but I have consistently ignored it. Ignoring those kind of remarks or answering them with my own opinion has generally only made those who criticize me angrier but I honestly don't care what they think.
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

7) Do you think ETD tuning of EBVT would result in better overall sound than ETD tuning of true ET?

It depends on how the ETD is used. I know how to use my ETD to get exactly what I want. ETD users who know how to custom program their ETD's can get the finest of ET tunings. Using the EBVT correction figures and default programming of an ETD will produce some measure of the sound which I like to create but it is not as perfected as what I do using the direct interval approach to ETD tuning. Using that approach, I can get a better tuning than I could by ear alone because I have more control in achieving exactly what I want.
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

8) Considering the loss of "in tuning", caused by playing and all other factors, have you got any clue, from tests or experience, about EBVT's decay, compared with true ET's decay?
My opinion is that there is no significant difference. Some people seem to think that I believe the EBVT stays sounding good longer than ET does and some people seem to believe that ET would last longer than any WT would but I don't believe either is really true.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1345716 - 01/10/10 01:29 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: BDB]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
BDB: Yes, the "kick-off" (reference point) becomes more important.

I am pondering a Bb-centered EBVT (a whole step down from the original EBVT). Would be a blast to experiment with tuning that way for jazz venues. Just have to get there from an A fork...

For my first try-out, I will use ET via M to get the wholesteps F-G-A-B-C#-D#-F work progressively, then treat G as my reference and build EBVT a whole step down from the original sequence instructions.

I think horn players would love a temperament that is custom made for them - centered around Bb, with 'temperament wings' Eb-Ab and F-C. If this sounds insane, and if the originator of this post gets even more irritated, I really couldn't care less. It's not like there is a world-wide patent on tunings. I will probably not get sued. And I didn't sign any papers when I started tuning, either.

The idea of not being honest to (or cheating on) the customers when you don't tune ET is most amusing to me. For those of you who haven't been involved in piano teaching, I can say that the same type of discussion (right vs. wrong) is much harsher in that field.

For every given piano technique, there are several others condemning it. Even worse, they blame the inventors for spoiling young peoples lives. Compared to that, an UT tuning for a concert really don't seem like a big thing. And - in a worst-case conservative scenario - what about if it even sounded good... better than ET? Should I still tune ET then, just to be proper and polite? grin

I very much like Jerry Groot's philosophy on this: "Whatever blows your hair back" smile . "Whatever rocks your boat". Leave people be, and get better on what you sincerely believe in.
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

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#1345741 - 01/10/10 01:56 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: BDB]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3237
Loc: Madison, WI USA
BDB, The EBVT or EBVT III can be tuned just as easily from a C fork as from A. The four initial equal beating intervals serve as a "foundation" the same way CM3s do it ET.

Virtually all of the HT's are tuned from a C fork but many of them can be transposed easily to be tuned from an A fork much the same way as Braide-White's original C fork sequence is often transposed to A.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1345752 - 01/10/10 02:10 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1065
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Hello Bill,

you write:...“The more harmonious sound found in the simple keys of any well temperament is well understood by all. However, contrary to what most technicians suppose about the remote keys, that they would simply sound out of tune, I have found that pianists perceive that as power and energy.”...

My impression was that, also in the simple keys, harmoniousness may depend on the type of chord, am I wrong?

...“Once, after a recital played in 1/7 comma meantone, the Czech artist told me, "In all my life, I have never dared to play a piano so softly. If I had tried that with any other piano, there would have been nothing musical about it. Yet, with this piano, I felt a force beneath my hands which I could control as I never could before. It was some kind of magic, the way this piano spoke to me!"...

So, 1/7 comma meantone, in your opinion, is more musical than any other piano tuned how? And “musical” (for you) means what, precisely? With a selection of keys "in tuning"?

...“Now, considering the EBVT III, it does provide for a different character for each key but the differences as they follow the cycle of 5ths are very slight from one key to the next. The remote keys do have their energetic character but they are not so energetic as to be unusable.”...

So, the differences in character are there, but very slight, and “the remote do have their energetic character but they are not so energetic as to be unusable.” May I ask: when is this “energetic” so strong that it becomes unusable?

...“Transposing did give the accompaniment a different character but it was not so different that it was unusable or completely destructive to the music.”...

So, is it a mild “in between”, different character and energetic? What are you referring to when you say energetic?

...“I have done that with the Vaccai Italian songs too. I may sometimes, actually want that slight "edge" that a half step transposition would provide. It would not be for the purpose of suiting my vocal range but in fact for the slightly different character and the energy that using a remote key would afford.”...

Yes, compared to what?

...“At the final verse, the pianist moves up a half step to F# Major for a little more energy during that final verse. This would often be done in ET and the increase in energy would be there both in pitch and a very slight increase in the beat rates of the M3's yes. If the piano is tuned in the EBVT III, there is simply an enhancement of that effect but not such a difference that it destroys the music.”...

So, do you think it is more energetic than ET? My interest in understanding more is real. Maybe you manage to briefly answer my other questions too, thanks Bill.

Regards, a.c.


Edited by alfredo capurso (01/10/10 02:13 PM)
_________________________
alfredo

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#1345795 - 01/10/10 02:49 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: alfredo capurso]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1065
Loc: Sicily - Italy

...Maybe you manage to briefly answer my other questions too,...

Bill, I've just seen that you had already answered my previous questions, sorry, I'm going to read your replay right now.

Many thanks, a.c.
_________________________
alfredo

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#1346289 - 01/10/10 10:50 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: BDB]
Gadzar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1775
Loc: Mexico City
Originally Posted By: BDB
That is the crux of the both the advantage and the problem with unequal temperaments. They are not the same for all keys. Sometimes you want a key that sounds worse to sound better.


Yes it is that way. But when you talk about geniuses like Bach, there is no problem there are only advantages that he exploited wisely, using remotes keys to express energy, power, etc. and primary keys to express beauty, calm, harmoniousness.

So if the modern composer has this gift, he can make music using to his advantage these subtle differencies in Modern Well Temperaments that allow free modulation in all keys.
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1346431 - 01/11/10 01:44 AM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Gadzar]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7665
Loc: France
The more I listen to samples the more the question I have is :

Do US techs voice pianos so mellow because of the way they tune unisons, or do they tune unisons that way because they voice mellow.

In that context I understand the search for "contrast" in tone.

But I suggest that on pianos that articulate more, the differences would jump to the ear way more.

That said the samples from PPat where not that chocking, while the unisons had more presence at the attack that what I have generally heard on US pianos.. still waiting to hear more.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#1346436 - 01/11/10 01:59 AM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Olek]
Gadzar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1775
Loc: Mexico City
So you find American pianos have mellower tones than European pianos!

That's curious, because I believe exactly the contrary. Although I seldom tune European pianos.

Here, I have to tune mainly american pianos which I find to have a brilliant tone, some asian pianos which have mainly a metallic tone, and rarely European pianos which have a mellower tone.


Edited by Gadzar (01/11/10 02:00 AM)
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1346449 - 01/11/10 02:40 AM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Gadzar]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7665
Loc: France
I think of the density of the tone at the attack (always !)

Seem to me that the "envelope" (?) is flatter while indeed the spectra can be brillant and with some flavorus acidity, I mostly talk of dynamics and articulation of tone there)
Particularly the impregnated hammer have lot of power immediately when playing piano, but the spectra behaviour does not change much if you play forte.
SO even if the power sensation (mostly felt by the pianist, less by the auditory) is very agreeable, tonal changes within dynamics are more important in my view.

I believe that the immediateness of the whole spectra oblige to voice the hammer surface and high regions more, and to use softer hammers. then the unison tuning "european like" is less natural as the rebound of the hammer is more damped.

Only after hearing instruments on Utube and some recordings that is difficult to say what is it really but I can recognize the way the tone evolve even if I dont really hear in the best conditions.


Edited by Kamin (01/11/10 03:23 AM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#1346779 - 01/11/10 01:36 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Gadzar]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1065
Loc: Sicily - Italy
..."But when you talk about geniuses like Bach, there is no problem there are only advantages that he exploited wisely, using remotes keys to express energy, power, etc. and primary keys to express beauty, calm, harmoniousness."

..."So if the modern composer has this gift, he can make music using to his advantage these subtle differencies in Modern Well Temperaments that allow free modulation in all keys."...

It may be because of my ear that I compare UTs to potatoes (I love potatoes) and ET (my version) to a sphere.

One may say: I prefere to play potatoes or listen to potatoes, fair enough.

But then, why (on which basis) should a musician, a composer or a listener share the same bumpy-type potato?

How is it possible to talk so much about personal preferencies, so excluding a shareable concept or idea of "in tune", and then establish a preference and/or a supremacy for a single bumpy model? Should not a bumpy personal preference (which I respect) be even less shareable than a natural geometric progressive model?

And, for serious evaluations, should we not let philological researchers talk about Bach's intentions?

a.c.
.



Edited by alfredo capurso (01/11/10 02:24 PM)
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alfredo

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#1346794 - 01/11/10 01:51 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: alfredo capurso]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3237
Loc: Madison, WI USA
I don't want to sound rude but it seems to me that the theories people who have no experience using and enjoying non equal temperaments are boundless.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1346803 - 01/11/10 02:04 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1065
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Bill, to me you do not sound rude.

You may refer to me when you say "theories people who have no experience using and enjoying non equal temperaments", and you may refer to me using my name, no problem.

I hope you did not take offence, I really think that my compareson potato Vs sphere derives from my ear issues.

But leave my urges aside, I do not get the "preference" logics that are displayed here and there, in this forum. Can you help with that?

Here is a "light" and fascinating link to geometric proportions in nature (scroll down for pictures):

http://www.maths.surrey.ac.uk/hosted-sites/R.Knott/Fibonacci/fibnat.html

Edit: And if we were to think in terms of personal preferences, should not we get ready to offer a "custom bumpy", more than forcing our own preference? Maybe I would not mind the chance to get each different customer's bumpy taste, I generally like diversity.

Best regards, a.c.
.
.


Edited by alfredo capurso (01/11/10 04:44 PM)
_________________________
alfredo

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#1347123 - 01/11/10 07:42 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: alfredo capurso]
Gadzar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1775
Loc: Mexico City
What Bill said about

"the theories people who have no experience using and enjoying non equal temperaments are boundless"

applies to all of the posters here who claim to always tune ET.

How can they have a serious solid theory about something they never have done?


Edited by Gadzar (01/11/10 07:42 PM)
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1347125 - 01/11/10 07:47 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Gadzar]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21583
Loc: Oakland
There are people with solid theories about poisonous mushrooms who have never eaten one.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1347133 - 01/11/10 07:52 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: BDB]
Gadzar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1775
Loc: Mexico City
Yes, the ones that have ever eaten one are dead. And their relatives have made the solid theories about eating mushrooms.

But when tuning a piano you are not going to die! You can try without any risk!

What are you afraid of?


Edited by Gadzar (01/11/10 07:53 PM)
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1347169 - 01/11/10 08:51 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Gadzar]
Ryan Hassell Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 07/07/09
Posts: 473
Loc: Farmington, MO
Gadzar, I agree with you!

I don't understand why people are so opposed to tuning in something other that ET. I began tuning in ET just like most others, read about the EBVT III on this forum, tried it on my own piano, and LOVED the sound. Of course it's easier for me I guess, I DO play the piano and I can really hear the difference it makes musically.

I now tune every piano in EBVT III. I have tuned everyone's piano from the President of the Missouri Music Educators Association, to well renowned pianists and piano teachers in my area to a little elderly lady hosting a Sunday School sing-a-long in her home. They all love the sound. To some I explain the difference and others I don't. The music and piano teachers are usually the ones most fascinated.

I recently finished the book "Why Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony: and Why You Should Care." It was very interesting. From what I can gather..correct me if I'm wrong here Bill.. from the book the EBVT III is very similar to how Bach developed his Temperament for the Well-Tempered Clavier. The book describes Bach's Temperament at similar to ET, but each key slightly shaded to add more color....I paraphrased that loosely.

The bottom line is this...don't always accept the status quo...there may be something out there better.
_________________________
Ryan G. Hassell
Hassell's Piano Tuning
Farmington, MO
www.hassellspianotuning.com
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Hassells-Piano-Tuning/163155880804
ryanhassell@hotmail.com

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#1347198 - 01/11/10 09:33 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Ryan Hassell]
Gadzar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1775
Loc: Mexico City
When I started tuning pianos I always tuned ET.

I used to have a digital piano that offered different temperaments and I have tried all available but I didn't like any of them.

It offered Pitagorean tuning, 1/4 comma meantone, Kirnberger, Werkmeister, Young and other meantone and well temperaments that sounded fine for simple keys but from horrible to bad tasting in the remote keys.

So for some time I keep the impression that it was old stuff not usefull today, until I read the Lehman article about Bach's temperament which had intrigued me. And I tuned my piano to his temperament to play some Bach pieces I know. I loved it.

So I began to try some other temperaments, designed in our days by some of the more reputed contemporary tuners (Jim Coleman). Finaly I discovered the Moore temperament which is a very mild well but still very expressive and I began to tune it in my client's pianos with a lot of success.

I have also bought the book "Tuning" by Owen Jorgensen and I read it regularly to discover how temperaments have evolved through Centuries. And I tune some of the sequences of that book in my practice piano. I have learned to divide the comma, to tune meantone temperaments and other interesting stuff.

Later I found the EBVT III and I switched from Moore.

Now I tune only EBVT III for my clients and I have learned to do it aurally, aiming to get the pipe organ effect.

Yes, if you search you can always find better out there!


Edited by Gadzar (01/11/10 09:38 PM)
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1347214 - 01/11/10 09:51 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Gadzar]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2395
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Originally Posted By: Gadzar


...Now I tune only EBVT III for my clients and I have learned to do it aurally, aiming to get the pipe organ effect...



What will you say to a customer that says, "Interesting...now can you put it back to give it a piano effect since thats what I am paying you to do"?
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1347234 - 01/11/10 10:02 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Emmery]
Gadzar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1775
Loc: Mexico City
Before tuning EBVT III for the first time, I offer to my client to retune the piano to ET for free if he/she doesn't like it.

I have never had to retune one single piano!

Maybe I am just lucky, maybe EBVT III is good enough, who knows?
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1347405 - 01/12/10 04:46 AM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Gadzar]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1065
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Peter started this thread writing:

..."Can someone please tell me why folks are so interested in historical tunings when many out there can't set an equal temperament worth it's name, set a pin, stretch an octave and basically tune a piano that will stay tuned.

Is it the 'next big thing' to distract us away from getting excellent at the basic task in hand...?

I can understand the mystique and the 'Oh goodness me, so you tune historical tunings, you must be SO good' aspects of this....but lets get real here...

There is no doubt that historical tunings play a valuable role in understanding why things were written the way they were and to many ears give a more pleasant rendering of a given piece....but come on you beginners out there...and you 'improvers'....learn to tune solidly first...do that for a long time...internalize the process...then starts to mess with the esoteric stuff."...

Yesterday Gadzar wrote:

..."What Bill said about

"the theories people who have no experience using and enjoying non equal temperaments are boundless"

applies to all of the posters here who claim to always tune ET.

How can they have a serious solid theory about something they never have done?"...

My quiete understanding:

Today Gadzar seems to confirm, though I can not understand how he can be so sure, what Bill says: many tuners tune different from ET...

This is also Peter's point, when he writes: "...why folks are so interested in historical tunings when many out there can't set an equal temperament worth it's name, set a pin, stretch an octave..."...

So, on one point you agree: Not many tuners know how to tune ET.

Then, it seems that Bill, Gadzar and the UT block does know how to tune ET, but they prefere EBVT. So they conclude: there is no point in learning or tuning ET. We were able to tune ET, but EBVT sounds better.

I think Peter's point was not whether ET sounds better or worse than EBVT or UTs.

Peter wrote:...come on you beginners out there...and you 'improvers'....learn to tune solidly first...do that for a long time...internalize the process...then starts to mess with the esoteric stuff."...

And if you were to notice a language problem on my part, please tell me. Otherwise, can we get Peter's point correctly?

My personal points of view:

Through the all process of learning ET tuning, a tuner (myself included) is going "willy-nilly" through various kinds of Unequal tunings.

Only when a tuner can tune ET on 88 keys, he/she is proving to have gained beats and pins control. Then he/she could choose whatever personal-bumpy tuning and even sell it and charge double normal.

Saying: I new, I was able to tune ET but I prefere UT, is no evidence because it is not proveable.

Saying: I new, I was able to tune ET but I prefere UT, is not an argument, is not enough for wanting to push tuners away from ET tuning. Actually, every tuner should be able to master ET, so to be able - if anything - to evaluate and choose on the basis of his/her own conscious preference, and "personal preferences" is what the UT block is talking about, when departing from world-wide spread ET, is not it?

My moanings:

Too many Topics turn into EBVT featuring, with consequent debasement of any other issue, what makes impossible talking more in depth. As for Stopper, I suggest to start an EBVT dedicated Topic, there is no need to turn some personal directioning into spam.

Also, I get the feeling that, when a point is made - like the "bumpy tunings and personal preferences" Vs "geometric proportions in nature" - the point is either ignored or assumed as the nth war reason. Stop war. No crusade.

a.c.





Edited by alfredo capurso (01/12/10 05:50 AM)
_________________________
alfredo

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#1347436 - 01/12/10 07:15 AM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: alfredo capurso]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1065
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Actually, every tuner should be able to master ET, so to be able - if anything - to evaluate and choose on the basis of his/her own conscious preference, and "personal preferences" is what the UT block is talking about, when departing from world-wide spread ET, is not it?

And I add: the preference for any kind of tuning, ET or whatever non equal T., should be matured in complete consciousness.

Today, after more than 2000 years of compulsory non equal tunings, any tuner can (and should) learn also a smooth progressive ET tuning, so being able to face any professional request, be it the most modern ET evolution (including pure fifths ET or pure 12ths ET) or the latest interpretation of "in tune imperfection", harmoniousness, colour, energy, power and whatever else. This is my personal idea of correct schooling, fear and honest teaching and broad learning.

A pro tech, today, must be able to tune ET first, he/she must be conscious that he/she can actually tune ET, so that he/she can answer 99.999 % requests, without cheating, but actually enjoying the nth chance they get to fully satisfy their customers.

And I would never dear to ask the pianist how would he/she like a "personally preferred" Victorian tuning before the concert...it would be panic for sure.

In my opinion, EBVT, other non equal T., call it UT, Historical, Irregular or what, can represent the tuner's found of knowledge and expertise, better to be familiar, the more the better. ET is today's must, the temperament world widely expected, and it is better to acknowledge this, the sooner the better.

a.c.
.


Edited by alfredo capurso (01/12/10 07:45 AM)
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alfredo

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#1347479 - 01/12/10 08:48 AM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: alfredo capurso]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3237
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Thank you, Rafael. Emmery enjoyed telling you once again that you are tuning the piano wrong. The customer will go to the piano and play chromatic M3s and declare, "Ay Carrumba! These thirds are all uneven!" Then, he/she will perform octave tests and say, "These octaves are all of different sizes!" "I did not ask for my piano to be turned into a pipe organ, I want perfect ET and pure octaves!" Then he/she will start playing music and declare, "This piece sounds DULL!" "Now, this piece sounds HORRIBLY out of tune!". "I want every chord to sound the same!" "I want complete freedom of modulation!". "I am going to SUE you!". "If I find out you belong to PTG, I am going to call the home office and have you KICKED OUT!"

Yes, Emmery KNOWS about those unequal temperaments. From time to time, he has sat down, put muting strips in his piano, opened a book and followed the instructions for tuning the Dorkmeister IX, X and XI. He played the topsy-turvy intervals. He heard the wolves howling. He tried to play some music but it the horrible sounds absolutely made his SKIN CRAWL! So, he promptly tuned his piano BACK! BACK! BACK! to ET!, wiped his brow, shook his head and wondered how ANYBODY could ever think they could get away with passing off a sloppy temperament like any one of the thousands there are in those old books as a piano tuning. "There ought to be a LAW!" Nobody but nobody around where HE lives EVER asked for their piano to be tuned like THAT! When people pay good money to have their piano tuned, they expect STANDARD TUNING! (You know, like when they order coffee, they expect coffee, not Mocha Java Chocolata Ya Ya).

The EBVT III was developed by listening and research. The unique combination of equal beating intervals and a mild progression and alignment with the cycle of 5ths combined with equal beating octaves and 5ths give the piano a voice that is inherently more pleasing and musically satisfying to virtually every one of my customers. Rafael is not the only other technician who has discovered likewise.

Alfredo has said that he views the piano tuned in ET like a sphere. Fair enough. The cycle of 5ths could also be seen as such, after all, it is a circle. If you want to look at a map of the world in its true perspective, you look at a globe. To me, ET is like the flat projection of what should be a sphere onto a flat surface. It gives everything a distorted perspective but in one sense, it seems more logical. A cycle of 5ths based temperament gives back to music what ET takes away.

No negative, ill-informed, inexperienced comments here or from any technicians anywhere ever dissuaded or influenced me in any way and they are not likely to do that now or in the future. Tear your hair out, bang your head against the wall about it if you will but I really don't care what you think about the way I tune the piano unless you agree with me. I don't care what your idea of how to tune a piano is. I have my own and I am sticking with it, period.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1347484 - 01/12/10 08:58 AM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4197
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Thank you, Rafael. Emmery enjoyed telling you once again that you are tuning the piano wrong. The customer will go to the piano and play chromatic M3s and declare, "Ay Carrumba! These thirds are all uneven!" Then, he/she will perform octave tests and say, "These octaves are all of different sizes!" "I did not ask for my piano to be turned into a pipe organ, I want perfect ET and pure octaves!" Then he/she will start playing music and declare, "This piece sounds DULL!" "Now, this piece sounds HORRIBLY out of tune!". "I want every chord to sound the same!" "I want complete freedom of modulation!". "I am going to SUE you!". "If I find out you belong to PTG, I am going to call the home office and have you KICKED OUT!"

Yes, Emmery KNOWS about those unequal temperaments. From time to time, he has sat down, put muting strips in his piano, opened a book and followed the instructions for tuning the Dorkmeister IX, X and XI. He played the topsy-turvy intervals. He heard the wolves howling. He tried to play some music but it the horrible sounds absolutely made his SKIN CRAWL! So, he promptly tuned his piano BACK! BACK! BACK! to ET!, wiped his brow, shook his head and wondered how ANYBODY could ever think they could get away with passing off a sloppy temperament like any one of the thousands there are in those old books as a piano tuning. "There ought to be a LAW!" Nobody but nobody around where HE lives EVER asked for their piano to be tuned like THAT! When people pay good money to have their piano tuned, they expect STANDARD TUNING! (You know, like when they order coffee, they expect coffee, not Mocha Java Chocolata Ya Ya).


This is the type of statement that sets this place on edge. I and many others do not understand why you have to have a new enemy every week in this place.
Character assassination is not necessary to get your point across here.
Why does there always have to be a new bogeyman for you?
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1347486 - 01/12/10 09:02 AM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4197
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT

No negative, ill-informed, inexperienced comments here or from any technicians anywhere ever dissuaded or influenced me in any way and they are not likely to do that now or in the future. Tear your hair out, bang your head against the wall about it if you will but I really don't care what you think about the way I tune the piano unless you agree with me. I don't care what your idea of how to tune a piano is. I have my own and I am sticking with it, period.


This is just fine with everyone here and we all understand your position. We have heard your position on this multiple times.
You do it your way. The trouble is all of this chatter from you makes it appear that you do not want to let us do it our way.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1347487 - 01/12/10 09:02 AM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Bernhard Stopper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 212
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT

A cycle of 5ths based temperament gives back to music what ET takes away.


Let me add my personal view of (any) ET, that they are all cycle of fifths based, Bill. And they give something, what UTs take away. How we are weighting this or that, is a matter personal taste. Some like singers or string players vibrating and find this to be a magic tone, some detest it (like Mozart has for example) and it reminds them on old women funeral choir.




Edited by Bernhard Stopper (01/12/10 09:05 AM)
_________________________
Bernhard Stopper
www.piano-stopper.de

Salieri: "Mediocrities everywhere, now and to come: I absolve you all! Amen! Amen! Amen!"
(Amadeus, the movie)

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#1347759 - 01/12/10 02:42 PM Re: Hysterical tunings etc... [Re: Bernhard Stopper]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3237
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Oh, now I get it, Dan, the rules and proper etiquette state that it just fine to mock and ridicule anyone who uses a non-ET as in, "What will you say to a customer that says, "Interesting...now can you put it back to give it a piano effect since thats what I am paying you to do"?". It's OK to call such a person fool, an idiot or whatever you want. But what is not OK is for me to return the favor. Now I get it.

We've also heard Emmery's position on this several times. But yes, that is OK for him to say what he believes while mocking and ridiculing Rafael because you agree with Emmery. He can say it anyway he wants as many times as he wants. But what is not OK is to point out that the hysteria here is coming from the ET only crowd. that is against the rules. Now, I get it.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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